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Normally I'd agree with you Adam, however when it comes to things like this you almost have to.
A Longbow and a Composite Longbow are very distinctly different weapons. They have different range increments, and you can add a Strength Modifier to the Composite Longbow.
So if the rules say that a Daikyu is essentially a Longbow with a different name, that's what it is.
He's already using an alternate racial trait to get a proficiency for free that his class wouldn't ordinarily allow, and he's using a sidebar allowed reskin to do so.
To then say he can now choose a different weapon for the reskin, no matter how similar, I think is pushing the rules to the limit. Don't you?
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Normally I'd agree with you Adam, however when it comes to things like this you almost have to.
A Longbow and a Composite Longbow are very distinctly different weapons. They have different range increments, and you can add a Strength Modifier to the Composite Longbow.
So if the rules say that a Daikyu is essentially a Longbow with a different name, that's what it is.
He's already using an alternate racial trait to get a proficiency for free that his class wouldn't ordinarily allow, and he's using a sidebar allowed reskin to do so.
To then say he can now choose a different weapon for the reskin, no matter how similar, I think is pushing the rules to the limit. Don't you?
No.
For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
Hunter's Eye, the Andoran faction trait, grants proficiency with shortbow or longbow. It does not need to call out explicitly that it also grants you proficiency for the composite version of the typeof bow you use it to gain proficiency with.
Why should an alternate racial trait require that non-existent distinction added?
Would he need to take a separate proficiency with adamantine katanas, since katanas are't called out as being adamantine, if he were to use it for proficiency with katana?
The only trait that I know of, offhand, with proficiency limitations, is Heirloom Weapon, and that explicitly calls it out as part of the trait.
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Kinevon,
Normally I'd agree with you.
However when you start talking about back-dooring your way into a proficiency that includes a sidebar suggested reskin, I think you have to be very specific.
In this case, I don't think you can conclude that a Daikyu proficiency equates to a composite longbow proficiency.
1) This is eastern exotic weapon training. He wants to use it on a Daikyu.
2) The Sidebar says that a Daikyu is the equivalent of a longbow.
3) If you equate this to proficiency in a Composite Longbow, then it is no longer a Daikyu and defeats the purpose and intent of the original alternate racial trait (eastern weapon proficiency).
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After looking at pictures of a Daikyu I would agree it is not a composite bow, it lacks the recurve. However:
Heirloom Weapon trait - Longbow proficiency, get a composite bow. (100g if it has a +0 STR bonus.)
Spell - masterwork transformation to masterwork your weapon (so you can upgrade it with Adaptive later, which will allow you to use your full STR bonus, though the weapon must first be +1)
Description - A very tall bow that looks more powerful than a normal
one and looks similar, yet is not quiet like a Daikyu.
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For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
Daikyu: This long curved bow made of laminated bamboo or wood, and favored by many samurai, is equivalent to a longbow.
This seems really simple.
A composite longbow is equivalent to a longbow for purposes of Weapon Proficiency. So, in terms of Composite Longbow Proficiency:
Composite Longbow = Longbow.
A daikyu is equivalent to a longbow. So, in terms of Daikyu Proficiency:
Daikyu = Longbow.
Transitive property here? Daikyu = Composite Longbow.
If you know how to fire a Daikyu, you know how to fire a composite longbow. You still need to build your character in such a way in order to use it, but the proficiencies are there, because honestly, all he's doing is using his Exotic Weapon Proficiency to get a martial weapon: A Longbow, or as they say in Tien, a Daikyu.
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For the record, I do not yet have an opinion on whether the build in question grants longbow proficiency. Haven't looked at it, myself. But if it grants longbow proficiency, then it also grants composite longbow proficiency, per the Core rules.
Which breaks the intent and flavor of the alternate racial trait.
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For the record, I do not yet have an opinion on whether the build in question grants longbow proficiency. Haven't looked at it, myself. But if it grants longbow proficiency, then it also grants composite longbow proficiency, per the Core rules.Which breaks the intent and flavor of the alternate racial trait.
Any breaking of intent would be the an issue of whether or not the sidebar counts for the alternate racial trait, not whether or not longbow proficiency includes composite longbow proficiency.
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I’d straight up rule that it does not grant proficiency with a Daikyu.
It is quite explicit in the ARG, the Exotic Weapon Training indicates
Instead of swords, some tengus are trained in exotic weaponry. Such tengus choose a number of eastern weapons (Ultimate Combat 131) equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
Page 131 only lists the eastern martial weapons. The sidebar is on page 134.
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FWIW, the relevant text from the sidebar on UC 134:
Eastern Weapon Equivalents
While Eastern cultures have weapons equivalent to the longsword and the longbow, they often called them by different names. The following are statistical equivalents to just a few Eastern weapons with which you may be familiar.
Daikyu: This long curved bow made of laminated bamboo or wood, and favored by many samurai, is equivalent to a longbow....
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It is quite explicit in the ARG, the Exotic Weapon Training indicates
Page 131 only lists the eastern martial weapons. The sidebar is on page 134.
Instead of swords, some tengus are trained in exotic weaponry. Such tengus choose a number of eastern weapons (Ultimate Combat 131) equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
Ah, but page 131 has the table of eastern martial weapons, page 132 has the eastern exotic weapons, and page 134 has the infamous sidebar. The descriptions of the weapons range across pages 130-134.
The katana is an exotic weapon on the table on page 132, but its description is on page 131. Is it a valid choice for this racial trait? How about the sansetsukon (on the table on p131, description on p134)?
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It is quite explicit in the ARG, the Exotic Weapon Training indicates
Page 131 only lists the eastern martial weapons. The sidebar is on page 134.
Instead of swords, some tengus are trained in exotic weaponry. Such tengus choose a number of eastern weapons (Ultimate Combat 131) equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.Ah, but page 131 has the table of eastern martial weapons, page 132 has the eastern exotic weapons, and page 134 has the infamous sidebar. The descriptions of the weapons range across pages 130-134.
The katana is an exotic weapon on the table on page 132, but its description is on page 131. Is it a valid choice for this racial trait? How about the sansetsukon (on the table on p131, description on p134)?
No. Only the martial weapons on page 131 are allowed.
RAW, it is only on UC 131 per the ARG ability. Even though it says exotic weapon training, it quite explicitly says page 131. So no exotic eastern weapons (sorry Katana—take the standard Tengu Sword-Training if you want a Katana).
If you want to go with intent, that’s a whole different ballgame, and then by flavor and intent, you don’t get composite longbow proficiency because you use the longbow reskin into a Daikyu.
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You're saying because they only listed the page the ability starts on, that's all that applies? Too much, in my opinion. What about the katana, which is described on page 131 but is not on the table? The ability doesn't reference the table at all.
My opinion is this:
If someone wants to quote RAW and force something on the campaign that doesn’t make thematic sense, then they can’t take the intent of the ability elsewise.
Can’t have it both ways.
Either you use the ability as intended, or you use the RAW strictly.
In either case, a GM would be well within their rights to not allow the reskin at their table. So expect table variance.
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Andrew, you're still not answering the question of what to do if a weapon's description is on that page but its table entry isn't, or vice-versa.
I don't know the answer Jiggy.
Do you go by intent of the ability, or by RAW?
Realistically, I'd probably allow any of the eastern weapons, not just those on page 131.
But if someone wants to backdoor into a proficiency with composite longbow (which is not an eastern weapon) by using the longbow reskinned as a Daikyu from page 134 by claiming its rules as written...
Then you can't have it both ways.
You can't say, "But its RAW," on what you want, and then say, "But obviously the intent is all eastern weapons," so you can get what you want.
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If you're so inclined, the heirloom weapon trait allows you to begin play with a martial weapon that you're proficent with. Thanks to masterwork transformation becoming PFS legal, you can get it upgraded and enchanted as a magic bow!
Just don't lose it! ;-)
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Ultimately you have to go with the FAQ on reskinning though.
Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?
You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
A suggested reskin or not, a GM would be well within their rights to disallow the proficiency in Daikyu (longbow) due to this.
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OK,
How about one other view? I think that the character would be proficient with both a longbow and a composite longbow, however, the Daikyu is NOT a composite longbow and cannot have a strength rating.
But a player who wants to really cheese it up, would then say, "why am I using a Daikyu? The ability also gives me the ability to use a western Composite Longbow, so I'll just use that."
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Andy, you bolded this:
"A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules..."
And you're trying to apply it to a weapon that does, indeed, have specific rules.
Rules adjudications need to be based primarily on rules, not on what offends you.
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Anyway, this is largely becoming a rules discussion, so I've started a thread HERE.
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Andy, you bolded this:
"A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules..."
And you're trying to apply it to a weapon that does, indeed, have specific rules.
Rules adjudications need to be based primarily on rules, not on what offends you.
It doesn't offend me.
And there are no specific rules for a Daikyu. That's what the FAQ is talking about.
Basically folks saying their longsword is a Katana, and then wanting to use the katana rules instead of the longsword rules when UC came out.
There is a suggested reskin if someone wants to use a Daikyu.
But because of the tight reskin rules in PFS, suggested or not, you can't reskin a longbow to be a Daikyu in my view.
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And there are no specific rules for a Daikyu.
Daikyu: This long curved bow made of laminated bamboo or wood, and favored by many samurai, is equivalent to a longbow.
That looks like specific rules to me.
But because of the tight reskin rules in PFS, suggested or not, you can't reskin a longbow to be a Daikyu in my view.
Using a daikyu isn't reskinning. It's using a legal additional resource, which happens to be mechanically identical to a longbow.
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But Jiggy, that's what the FAQ was designed to do.
People were calling their Bastard Sword a Katana (because in past iterations of the game, that was the reskin). Statistics wise, they are essentially very similar. But the Katana does have some differences in Pathfinder.
So when Ultimate Combat came out, you had folks wanting to magically turn their Bastard Sword they called a Katana, into the Ultimate Combat Katana, despite actually using the stats for a Bastard Sword.
The same thing could happen here.
The suggested reskin is a Daikyu is a Longbow.
If a Daikyu comes out in some future book, and it has a couple differences, do people get to turn their Longbow they call a Daikyu, into a Daikyu?
To avoid that, you just don't reskin items.
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If you think people shouldn't be using "daikyus", get Mike to take it off the Additional Resources page. As is, it's legal for the campaign, and you don't get to veto it.
<eyeroll> sometimes the way you word things is patience trying.
I'm not veto'ing anything.
I never said I would make such a ruling.
I said a GM would be well within their rights to do so, expect table variation.
A sidebar suggesting a reskin is not the same thing as a rule or equipment content with a statblock.
At best, the FAQ and the sidebar are in conflict with one another as far as legality.
But as the more specific overrides the more general, the FAQ overrides additional resources in how something is, or is not legal.
In this case, it is highly suspect that a suggested reskin from Ultimate Combat is legal, because it is essentially fluff text. There is no stat block for the Daikyu.
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To further muddy the waters, and hopefully clarify things, here's a quote from a stat block in Tide of Honor called the Daikyu of Commanding Presence.
The daikyu of commanding presence is a +2 seeking composite longbow that adjusts its strength rating to match the Strength bonus of its wielder.
So the game says "Hey look, here's a composite longbow. It's in Tien, so the name of the weapon is a daikyu." We're arguing over what is basically a translation issue - a Tien (or historically Eastern) character would call a longbow (of any sort, apparently) a daikyu, while a non-Tien (read: historically Western character) would call it a longbow.
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<eyeroll> sometimes the way you word things is patience trying.
I'm sure responding to player questions with accusations of wanting "to really cheese it up" is a great example of how I can be less patience-trying with my word choices.
I'm not veto'ing anything.
I never said I would make such a ruling.
...you can't reskin a longbow to be a Daikyu in my view.
So you're not veto-ing it, you're just saying you can't do it?
A sidebar suggesting a reskin is not the same thing as a rule or equipment content with a statblock.
Why do you keep calling it a "suggested reskin"? "X is equivalent to Y" is a rule, not a reskin. It's right there in black and white. From what premises do you arrive at the conclusion that it's a "suggested reskin" instead of meaning what it says?
In this case, it is highly suspect that a suggested reskin from Ultimate Combat is legal, because it is essentially fluff text. There is no stat block for the Daikyu.
So when the book says "statistically equivalent", that's fluff text? Interesting idea.
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Incorrect.
Witches adding spells are a sidebar. (APG 68)
Magus Black Blades are a sidebar. (UM 48)
Optional rules are labeled as such - such as the Gunslinger's Daring Acts (UC 12).
Eastern Weapon Equivalents (UC 134) are not listed as optional rules. They are part of the section on Eastern Weapons, which runs starting on page 131 (labeled such in the race guide for easy look-up, not because you can only use weapons on page 131).
The daikyu is an eastern weapon, therefore it is usable by the exotic weapon tengu trait, which states that the Tengu can be proficient in Eastern weapons. It is equivalent to a longbow - that means that a character proficient in the daikyu is proficient in using a longbow. If you're proficient in using a longbow you are proficient in using a composite longbow, RAW - so I'm reading it as Daikyu grants composite longbow proficiency. As all of these are legal in PFS, I see no reason this should not be allowed.
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And your link doesn't link to me saying I'd personally rule any particular way. I just indicating what the FAQ said.
I'll let you in on a secret, which you should know from having gamed with me for several 10s (maybe hundreds?) of hours already...
Unless I specifically say I'd rule a certain way, I'm talking about general interpretations and such.
I started commenting on this entire thread without reading the requisite information, and tried to find a way, within the rules, that the guy could do what he wanted to do.
On the surface, seems reasonable enough.
Then someone pipes in about turning a longbow into a composite longbow, which was like… huh?!
So I started reading. I read the Tengu trait, and the Ultimate Combat page 131 and 134.
Then the argument turns into a “But that’s RAW, you can’t change it!”
Ok, well then I respond with RAW says page 131, so you can’t do anything on page 134.
Doesn’t make sense per the intent, but it is RAW.
My entire intent here is to find a way this guy can make his character the way he wants to, while also maintaining the integrity of the game rules.
If you want to argue RAW. Then you can’t do it because ARG says page 131 from UC. I have no answers for how that works with items that are on the chart but not described on that page or items that are described but not on the chart. The ARG doesn’t call out the table specifically, just page 131. I’d rule in my table variation that it is referring to the chart only and descriptions don’t count. Seems like a good thing to FAQ with JB or SKR.
If you want to argue Rules Intent. Then you can do it, but only for a longbow, as that’s what the sidebar on UC page 134 says. But then you get all the weapons from page 128 through 135 in UC.
If you want to argue the FAQ not applying, I see your argument, and I’d like to agree with it. But if you want things both RAW and Rules as Intended (both ways), then I’ll use the FAQ to say no.
I don’t like being argued into a corner where I am forced to make a blanket yes/no statement. Those always come back to haunt you.
I’m stating my opinion based on the information available.
Then we got this other guy who has to throw a wrench into it all, by coming up with some magical Daikyu that’s a Composite Longbow… Oy Vey!
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Incorrect.
Witches adding spells are a sidebar. (APG 68)
Magus Black Blades are a sidebar. (UM 48)
I had a feeling there were probably some "clearly not just suggestions" sidebars somewhere, but didn't know where to look. Thanks for the citations.
Optional rules are labeled as such - such as the Gunslinger's Daring Acts (UC 12).
That's a good point.
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To further muddy the waters, and hopefully clarify things, here's a quote from a stat block in Tide of Honor called the Daikyu of Commanding Presence.
The daikyu of commanding presence is a +2 seeking composite longbow that adjusts its strength rating to match the Strength bonus of its wielder.So the game says "Hey look, here's a composite longbow. It's in Tien, so the name of the weapon is a daikyu." We're arguing over what is basically a translation issue - a Tien (or historically Eastern) character would call a longbow (of any sort, apparently) a daikyu, while a non-Tien (read: historically Western character) would call it a longbow.
And, now that Adaptive is a legal defined bow upgrade, does that make the Daikyu of Commanding Presence a named magic item that can be upgraded out of its name?
+2 Seeking, Adaptive, Composite Longbow (Str +0 base):
+8,000 +2
+10,000 Seeking
+1,000 Adaptive
400 Masterwork Composite Longbow (Str +0)
19,400 looks like the price for the unnamed equivalent...
At least it appears to be PFS legal, since my archer is likely to have the equivalent item in the not-too-distant future. His bow is already +1 Seeking Darkwood Composite Longbow (Str +3) with Adaptive as the next enhancement, when he can afford it.
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The daikyu of commanding presence is a +2 seeking composite longbow that adjusts its strength rating to match the Strength bonus of its wielder.So the game says "Hey look, here's a composite longbow. It's in Tien, so the name of the weapon is a daikyu." We're arguing over what is basically a translation issue - a Tien (or historically Eastern) character would call a longbow (of any sort, apparently) a daikyu, while a non-Tien (read: historically Western character) would call it a longbow.
I was already in the camp of they were basically interchangeable, but this makes it pretty clear for me.
However, magical item names and descriptions are not always 100% what you'd expect. Such as the infamous darkwood buckler which despite its name, is a light wooden shield (backed by price, weight and description)!
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Then we got this other guy who has to throw a wrench into it all, by coming up with some magical Daikyu that’s a Composite Longbow… Oy Vey!
Happy to help. ;)
I guess I'm just trying to point out that this is not a reskinning issue, it's honestly a linguistics thing. I call this cheese, a man in France calls it fromage (spelling?). It doesn't change what the item is.
Same with this - in England it was a longbow, in Japan it was a daikyu. And in our fantasy game, they've kept the versimilitude of different languages, and hence in Tien they call a daikyu what would be a longbow in Absalom (unless you were a Tien in Absalom, I suppose).
The daikyu is an Eastern Weapon - they use it in Tien, it's under the section "Eastern Weapons." It is the equivalent of a longbow - interchangable. And if you're proficient in a longbow, you're proficient in a composite longbow.
I just don't see the need for it to be a 'skinning' issue, because it's not about skinning - it's about equivalencies.