Never gonna happen, but I wish we could keep older content alive


Paizo General Discussion

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Hey Community
I've finally decided to take the full plunge into Pathfinder and Golarion. With limited funding for table gaming pathfinder has become my go to game. I also really enjoy Golarion as it's a "new" take on high fantasy. It just feels fresh for some reason. Paizo's products are also stellar with good quality and content. However there is just one problem. I'm a bit obsessive about content. Now that I know Pathfinder is gonna be my go to game for tabletop, I hunger for all the content. I want to get all the Core rules, Chronicles, Companions, Adventures Paths, and Modules. I'm also a bit of a traditionist about my books. I greatly prefer books over Pdfs. I work with computers all day and spend most of my time staring at a screen, so it's a welcome break when I get to actually sit down with a gaming book and read.

So I've been looking in the store at the various supplements and noticed many are out of print or outdated. After doing some research about Paizo's reprinting policy, I'm greatly saddened by the fact these supplements are stuck in a "Pdf graveyard." I understand the legalistic of reprinting and how it's not business wise to reprint old supplements. I also understand that at the end of the day Paizo is a company and they need to make money. I just can't shake the feeling I've some how been "punished" for not signing on sooner. As far as I can tell there are no plans to update any of the old 3.5 content. Nor any plans to release any more adventure path compilations(Rise of the Runelord AE is fantastic!). Just a real bummer. Anyone else feel the same? Anyone else love to see updates or compilations?

List of supplements I'd love to see updated/reprinted/put into a compilations

Updated/Compilation
-Curse of the Crimson Throne
-Second Darkness
-Legacy of Fire

Updated
-3.5 Modules
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Korvosa
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Gazetteer
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Darkmoon Vale
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Gods & Magic
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Into the Darklands
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Dragons Revisited
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Dark Markets—A Guide to Katapesh
-Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Dungeon Denizens Revisited
-Pathfinder Companion: Elves of Golarion
-Pathfinder Companion: Osirion, Land of Pharaohs
-Pathfinder Companion: Taldor, Echoes of Glory
-Pathfinder Companion: Legacy of Fire Player's Guide
-Pathfinder Companion: Second Darkness

Reprinted
-Pathfinder Adventure Path #25: The Bastards of Erebus (Council of Thieves 1 of 6)
-Pathfinder Adventure Path #31: Stolen Land (Kingmaker 1 of 6)
-Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red (Kingmaker 2 of 6)
-Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets—A Guide to the Pathfinder Society
-Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils
-Pathfinder Companion: Dwarves of Golarion
-Pathfinder Companion: Gnomes of Golarion
-Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion

Compilation
-Council of Thieves
-Kingmaker
-Serpent's Skull
-Carrion Crown
-Jade Regent
-Skull & Shackles
-Shattered Star


This is just a dream list. But looking at it all at once that sinking feeling is just getting worse. It's just the visual of how much of the content is split between the two systems. Realistically I wouldn't ever expect Paizo to reprint their 3.5 modules as conversions are pretty simple between 3.5 & PFRPG, depending. But supplements like Elves of Golarion, and Osirion, Land of Pharoahs could use a touch up. Also the AP's could all use the compilation treatment. I know Paizo said RotRL was special case but I'd buy compilations of the APs in a heartbeat. It would also fix that weird issue you get with Legacy of Fire, and Second Darkness where there Player's guide are these odd semi supplements. They could also put one of the older compilations out each year in the same kind of Anniversary edition format. However looking at the announced content for these next few months it looks like a few updates are on the way. What other Content do you think has already been updated?

Supplements
Players Companions
-Dragon Slayer's Handbook
-Quests & Campaigns
-Kobolds of Golarion
-Champions of Purity
-Dungeoneer's Handbook

Chronicles
-Dragons Unleashed
-Castles of the Inner Sea
-Fey Revisited

Liberty's Edge

The problem isn't whether compilations would sell. It is how they would affect the purchase of the APs in the first place. The general belief is that if people knew that compilations were on the horizon, they would not purchase the APs and instead wait for the compilations. This could end with Paizo having to close its doors, as the income from the Monthly APs is the backbone of what keeps Paizo running. At least that is my understanding from many posts by staff over the years.

I personally think they would be safe releasing compilation updates for those APs printed in 3.5. However I have no training, nor experience, running a publishing business. Also doing the updated compilations would take away from the time they have to work on the regular lines. Time they desperately need right now, if the delays that have crept into certain lines are any indication.

On a side note, your list in the second post is all new stuff. The Dragons Unleashed book is the closest to what may be an update. Everything else is new, never having been done by Paizo.


You would only do a compilation when the original is OOP; in whole or in part. If the AP is still fully available then there's no need to do a compilation but once even one module goes OOP the market for it is pretty dead if you aren't going to re-realease..

That's the problem I have with PF: if you've been following since the beginning (or close to it) it's great but new players kind of get the shaft. There are a lot of books, it's very expensive, and even if you're willing to pay all that there are still many things you just can't get.


graywulfe wrote:

The problem isn't whether compilations would sell. It is how they would affect the purchase of the APs in the first place. The general belief is that if people knew that compilations were on the horizon, they would not purchase the APs and instead wait for the compilations. This could end with Paizo having to close its doors, as the income from the Monthly APs is the backbone of what keeps Paizo running. At least that is my understanding from many posts by staff over the years.

I personally think they would be safe releasing compilation updates for those APs printed in 3.5. However I have no training, nor experience, running a publishing business. Also doing the updated compilations would take away from the time they have to work on the regular lines. Time they desperately need right now, if the delays that have crept into certain lines are any indication.

On a side note, your list in the second post is all new stuff. The Dragons Unleashed book is the closest to what may be an update. Everything else is new, never having been done by Paizo.

Even if they only release compilations of the 3.5 AP, and did an update for 3.5 content, I feel that would be a step in the right direction. A compilation of the oldest AP without a compilation, could keep both the old and new content viable. Like for example if they were to do a compilation of Curse of the Crimson Throne this year while the AP Reign of Winter had its run, both would be on the market at the same time. As far as the end of subscriptions goes if they went in order, you'd have to be a very patient person, as again with the above example you'd be waiting about 11 years for the Reign of Winter compilation. The compilations would be good for new comers, collectors, and general pathfinder lovers.Just an idea, and I'm sure it has flaws.

You mentioned delays, can you speak more on this, I'm a bit curious? Didn't I mention the second list was content coming? I'm sorry for the confusion if I didn't, I meant they were all forthcoming.


Sir Jolt wrote:

You would only do a compilation when the original is OOP; in whole or in part. If the AP is still fully available then there's no need to do a compilation but once even one module goes OOP the market for it is pretty dead if you aren't going to re-realease..

That's the problem I have with PF: if you've been following since the beginning (or close to it) it's great but new players kind of get the shaft. There are a lot of books, it's very expensive, and even if you're willing to pay all that there are still many things you just can't get.

I completely agree. I really do feel shafted by starting up now. I like the idea of compilations of OOP content. Kinda sucks that by the time I get the supplements most likely to fall OOP, even more will be just about to drop. It's like juggling eggs, the instant I fail to grab one at the last second its gone for good. Really sucks when I think about how someones work is just being left to rot almost. I'd sign up for the subs right now but I have to wait and grab the older stuff first. :/

Sovereign Court

Tsukiyomi wrote:
graywulfe wrote:

The problem isn't whether compilations would sell. It is how they would affect the purchase of the APs in the first place. The general belief is that if people knew that compilations were on the horizon, they would not purchase the APs and instead wait for the compilations. This could end with Paizo having to close its doors, as the income from the Monthly APs is the backbone of what keeps Paizo running. At least that is my understanding from many posts by staff over the years.

I personally think they would be safe releasing compilation updates for those APs printed in 3.5. However I have no training, nor experience, running a publishing business. Also doing the updated compilations would take away from the time they have to work on the regular lines. Time they desperately need right now, if the delays that have crept into certain lines are any indication.

On a side note, your list in the second post is all new stuff. The Dragons Unleashed book is the closest to what may be an update. Everything else is new, never having been done by Paizo.

Even if they only release compilations of the 3.5 AP, and did an update for 3.5 content, I feel that would be a step in the right direction. A compilation of the oldest AP without a compilation, could keep both the old and new content viable. Like for example if they were to do a compilation of Curse of the Crimson Throne this year while the AP Reign of Winter had its run, both would be on the market at the same time. As far as the end of subscriptions goes if they went in order, you'd have to be a very patient person, as again with the above example you'd be waiting about 11 years for the Reign of Winter compilation. The compilations would be good for new comers, collectors, and general pathfinder lovers.Just an idea, and I'm sure it has flaws.

You mentioned delays, can you speak more on this, I'm a bit curious? Didn't I mention the second list was content coming? I'm sorry for the confusion if I didn't, I meant they...

The flaw is that many would buy the compilation and think: that's my AP bought, I wonder when the next compilation will come out.

And eventually, it never would.


I certainly hope people wouldn't cancel their subscriptions and wait 10+ years for something they could get right now. However your probably right people would find odd ways of justifying it, and Paizo does need to pay its bills. I just really wish they had a print based solution to the OOP content. Heck I'd pay extra for the copies just to have them. :/ I guess I should just invest in a tablet and give up on books lol.


I'd love to see more compilations as well. It's quite understandable why they've indicated it is unlikely to happen, but still. So much has been added to the game since the 3.5 APs. I've got the original Rise of the Runelords and the Anniversary Edition, and it was totally worth buying the adventure path again.


On the topic of updates it looks like the dragon books coming out this year may be an update to the 3.5 Dragons revisited supplement. So I guess there may be hope for updates :)


It's easy enough to get 98% of the out of print materials if you do a little E-bay stalking. Amazon works as well but it's harder to find a deal on OOP there.


organized wrote:

It's easy enough to get 98% of the out of print materials if you do a little E-bay stalking. Amazon works as well but it's harder to find a deal on OOP there.

Isn't that the truth, a copy of Kingmaker part 1 on ebay goes for $291 and on amazon they range from $284-$899. It's just a really disappointing situation. I've read Vic's post about the whole reprinting thing, and I completely understand the whys and why nots. I also respect that they stick to their decision. It's just really disappointing that because I'm 2 years late Kingmaker is basically out of my reach, and more over for 3.5 content, and etc. It's just discouraging.

Sovereign Court

Tsukiyomi wrote:
I certainly hope people wouldn't cancel their subscriptions and wait 10+ years for something they could get right now.

What is important is that people cancel subscriptions all of the time anyway but new people take up subscriptions as well.

It would discourage new uptake, eventually leading to a fall due to all of the other reasons for ending a subscription.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
However your probably right people would find odd ways of justifying it, and Paizo does need to pay its bills.

I don't think it would be odd to justify saving a bit of money to get an updated, superior version of a product in a more attractive format. That is how many seem to perceive the RotRL compilation.

Being a Paizo subscriber is not cheap.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
I just really wish they had a print based solution to the OOP content. Heck I'd pay extra for the copies just to have them.

The obvious solution to this would be print-on-demand for older books: they would be more expensive but still available.

As it is, you can buy the pdf and then pay a printer to produce a bound, paper version. That can get expensive though, I imagine.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
:/ I guess I should just invest in a tablet and give up on books lol.

erm...


GeraintElberion wrote:
Tsukiyomi wrote:
I certainly hope people wouldn't cancel their subscriptions and wait 10+ years for something they could get right now.

What is important is that people cancel subscriptions all of the time anyway but new people take up subscriptions as well.

It would discourage new uptake, eventually leading to a fall due to all of the other reasons for ending a subscription.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
However your probably right people would find odd ways of justifying it, and Paizo does need to pay its bills.

I don't think it would be odd to justify saving a bit of money to get an updated, superior version of a product in a more attractive format. That is how many seem to perceive the RotRL compilation.

Being a Paizo subscriber is not cheap.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
I just really wish they had a print based solution to the OOP content. Heck I'd pay extra for the copies just to have them.

The obvious solution to this would be print-on-demand for older books: they would be more expensive but still available.

As it is, you can buy the pdf and then pay a printer to produce a bound, paper version. That can get expensive though, I imagine.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
:/ I guess I should just invest in a tablet and give up on books lol.
erm...

Fair points. I did some quick estimates with some online printers, looking to be around $115 or so, depending on the quality and printer. I'm all for digital distributions, but it's sad to see the book die. Mostly because the Pdf solution hurts and damages your eyes so much already. But alas what can you do. Paizo put its foot down on the issue.


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Well, everything eventually goes out of print. That was true in 3.x, it was true in 2nd, and it was for darn sure true back in the days of First Edition. If you didn't catch that copy of S1: Slave Pits of the Undercity when it hit the local game store back in 1981, then you were SOL.

Here's the thing: if the .pdf solution didn't exist, would Paizo reprint this stuff? For 90% of these products, the answer is no, they wouldn't. Overprinting is one of the worst things a business can do -- it freezes precious money in inventory that just sits in a warehouse for months or years. More than one business, in RPGs and otherwise, has gone bust this way. And reprints, well, it's much harder to estimate demand on them than it is on initial print runs. If you sell 10,000 copies of Kingmaker part 1, you're probably going to sell around the same number of part 2. But reprint Kingmaker, woo, who knows? And the fixed costs of a reprinting are high -- you can't just run off a few hundred more. If you're going to keep the original cover price and still make a profit, you'll need a fairly large print run. That might work out; but on the other hand, it might not. And if you're wrong, whoops, money down the drain.

One of the things to like about Paizo is that they're reasonably competent businessmen. They don't often do stupid stuff -- even when we, the fans, are saying yeah yeah! ooh, do it! I respect that.

Doug M.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Tsukiyomi wrote:
Fair points. I did some quick estimates with some online printers, looking to be around $115 or so, depending on the quality and printer. I'm all for digital distributions, but it's sad to see the book die. Mostly because the Pdf solution hurts and damages your eyes so much already. But alas what can you do. Paizo put its foot down on the issue.

I currently get those books I missed (or the ones they never do hardcopies of) printed out and it's definitely not a cheap option. (Other than the watermarks, they are indistinguishable from the paperstock/look that Paizo use).

Paizo have mentioned Print-On-Demand before and from what I understand the issue is predominantly one of quality control. I'm hopeful that once the technology improves and the quality becomes consistent enough for them that they will revisit that option and allow print-on-demand for things which have gone out of print. They've never actually said that that's on the cards though.


Tsukiyomi wrote:


As it is, you can buy the pdf and then pay a printer to produce a bound, paper version. That can get expensive though, I imagine.

Or you can print the .pdf yourself on a printer. At $0.30 for a double-sided B&W page, that's about fifteen bucks for each module in an AP. Bind it with a simple plastic sleeve, the sort you used for lab reports in high school, and that's another $0.50. Or just use a hole punch and stick it in a three-ring binder.

Is this as nice as the original AP? goodness, no. Will it give you a decent hard copy that avoids the "pdfs hurt my eyes" problem? Yes -- yes, it will.

Doug M.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Paizo have mentioned Print-On-Demand before and from what I understand the issue is predominantly one of quality control. I'm hopeful that once the technology improves and the quality becomes consistent enough for them that they will revisit that option and allow print-on-demand for things which have gone out of print. They've never actually said that that's on the cards though.

PoD printing does get better all the time, and I strongly suspect that one day we'll make that jump. However, quality is not the only issue—there's a prepress issue as well. Every print job needs to be tailored to the output device, meaning you can't just take the file created for our book printer, send it to a PoD printer, and expect it to come out right. At best, somebody proficient with prepress would need to make some adjustments to the file, and, in some cases, we'd even need somebody to tweak the layout of the entire book. And setting up for a second output device is often harder than setting up for the first—just ask some of the 3PPs who have done PoD with both Lulu and DriveThru.

So getting a PoD printer wouldn't mean "immediate access to everything"—it would mean the start of a lengthy process that would result in a small number of initial products growing over time.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Ah cheers, that eplains why it isnt more widespread amongst the PDF-only publishers. I'd always kind of thought of it as a free option, so it was puzzling that it's the exception rather than the rule.

FWIW, I wouldnt expect a print-on-demand option for those things you still had in stock anyhow so a "slow trickle" of gradually released products would be what I am hoping for (eventually).


I see where the OP is coming from, but I just can't imagine all the space it would take up. I started back in 1st edition, buying everything TSR and Judges Guild put out, along with the Dragon magazine and other RPGs like Traveller and such. With what I've bought since, minus the rare item I've had to sacrifice now and then to pay bills, I've still got over two bookcases of rpg material, plus ones for dvds, comics, games and paperback/ hardback books. If it wasn't for pdfs, I think there'd be no room for me in the house at all. For me to buy something in print these days, it would have to be something special and out of the ordinary.
If you just took everything that Paizo has put out like the OP wanted, how much space would that take up?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Paizo have mentioned Print-On-Demand before and from what I understand the issue is predominantly one of quality control. I'm hopeful that once the technology improves and the quality becomes consistent enough for them that they will revisit that option and allow print-on-demand for things which have gone out of print. They've never actually said that that's on the cards though.

PoD printing does get better all the time, and I strongly suspect that one day we'll make that jump. However, quality is not the only issue—there's a prepress issue as well. Every print job needs to be tailored to the output device, meaning you can't just take the file created for our book printer, send it to a PoD printer, and expect it to come out right. At best, somebody proficient with prepress would need to make some adjustments to the file, and, in some cases, we'd even need somebody to tweak the layout of the entire book. And setting up for a second output device is often harder than setting up for the first—just ask some of the 3PPs who have done PoD with both Lulu and DriveThru.

So getting a PoD printer wouldn't mean "immediate access to everything"—it would mean the start of a lengthy process that would result in a small number of initial products growing over time.

Holy crap! Thank you Mr. Wertz for your explanation. Again while the crazy collector in me "wants it all now," I'm very glad Paizo is playing things smart. I certainly hope for something to be done with these older works, either PoD or a updated version, but not at the risk of Paizo going under. Again best of luck to you folks in your many undertakings. As much as I may prefer quality books over pdfs, thank you for making the pdfs available at the very least. An option is still better than no others.


Randomdays wrote:

I see where the OP is coming from, but I just can't imagine all the space it would take up. I started back in 1st edition, buying everything TSR and Judges Guild put out, along with the Dragon magazine and other RPGs like Traveller and such. With what I've bought since, minus the rare item I've had to sacrifice now and then to pay bills, I've still got over two bookcases of rpg material, plus ones for dvds, comics, games and paperback/ hardback books. If it wasn't for pdfs, I think there'd be no room for me in the house at all. For me to buy something in print these days, it would have to be something special and out of the ordinary.

If you just took everything that Paizo has put out like the OP wanted, how much space would that take up?

I assume you have a large collection of books on pdf. How has that worked out at your table? Do you have any experience with your pdfs and tablets computers?


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A while back, there was a super cheap sale on all the Dungeoncrawl Classics pdfs right before they converted to 4E (I think end of 2005). You could get the megadungeon Castle Whiterock (783 pages) for just $5. I picked up the ones I didn't have, and I was lucky enough to grab the Dragon mag archive when it came out on disk before it was pulled for breaking the rules. Having 250 issues on CDs makes it a lot easier than pulling out a bunch of mags to look for the article I want. I picked up a bunch of the 1E and 2E pdfs when they 1st went online too, but have no idea which company I downloaded them from.

Like the OP though, its still nice to have the actual copy of a module or corebook in your hand. I still use the boxed Castle Whiterock, the corebooks, and though I'll probably never use them again, taking out something like the copy of "D1 Descent into the Earth" that I bought and ran when it came out brings out some good memories.

For a table, a lot of times a laptop actual works better than a tablet in some ways, as it can sit on the table, easy to see, leaves hands free,and the back of the monitor can act as a screen. If you make copies of a pdf in other directories, you can have multiple copies of the same pdf open at the same time, go to different pages in each, and just click the tab on the bottom of the screen to go to the each one quickly. I found this makes it easy to have the map on one tab and the box text on another. Bookmarks also work of course. If theres a picture you want the players to see, just turn the laptop for them to see it.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The vast majority of 3.5 rules content from Chronicles/Companions got updated along the way. For example, every monster in Into the Darklands and The Great Beyond was updated in Bestiary 2. So when you buy those, the fluff content is still as relevant as it was 5 years ago, while all the monster stats you can just take out of newer books/ the PRD.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tsukiyomi wrote:

On the topic of updates it looks like the dragon books coming out this year may be an update to the 3.5 Dragons revisited supplement. So I guess there may be hope for updates :)

Unfortunately it's not. Dragons Revisited covered each of the 10 classic types as a species, the new book will feature a certain number of individual dragons.


Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Tsukiyomi wrote:

On the topic of updates it looks like the dragon books coming out this year may be an update to the 3.5 Dragons revisited supplement. So I guess there may be hope for updates :)

Unfortunately it's not. Dragons Revisited covered each of the 10 classic types as a species, the new book will feature a certain number of individual dragons.

Ah I see, well one can hope. Thanks for the heads up.

Silver Crusade

Totally understand the reaso for not reprinting. Hell, I want Paizo to flourish, and that means making the right decisions for business.

That said, I'd still love for the remaining 3.5 APs to be collected and brought into the Pathfinder line. Yes, conversions can be done, but I'd still love to see how the staff would improve them ala RotRL.


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I'd be reasonably content with a Curse of the Crimson Throne anniversary version.

-- A lot of people seem to think this would be some sort of slippery slope to reprinting and upgrading *all* the APs. No. Let's face it -- some APs are just better than others, and more deserving of revival.

If I ran the zoo, I'd do CotCT next year, and then in year X I'd choose one of the two APs from year X-5. So, in 2015 they'd do either Kingmaker OR Serpent's Skull, in 2016 either Carrion Crown or Jade Regent, and so forth. (Mind, by 2017 they'll probably be rolling out Pathfinder 2. But never mind that now.)

Doug M.


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I totally understand and agree with Paizo's take on reprinting stuff. I love my RotRL anniversary edition, and would love to see Curse of the Crimson Throne done up. BUT...I think giving even the appearance that "Hey, someday they might compile this AP and fix any bugs in it" is going to cost Paizo customers, since many many people would hold off on buying something in anticipation for a anniversary edition.

Sovereign Court

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

I'd be reasonably content with a Curse of the Crimson Throne anniversary version.

-- A lot of people seem to think this would be some sort of slippery slope to reprinting and upgrading *all* the APs. No. Let's face it -- some APs are just better than others, and more deserving of revival.

If I ran the zoo, I'd do CotCT next year, and then in year X I'd choose one of the two APs from year X-5. So, in 2015 they'd do either Kingmaker OR Serpent's Skull, in 2016 either Carrion Crown or Jade Regent, and so forth. (Mind, by 2017 they'll probably be rolling out Pathfinder 2. But never mind that now.)

Doug M.

Wouldn't that just be further encouraging people not to subscribe.

"Hey, if you don't subscribe we'll make sure you only get the good ones but if you subscribe you're stuck with the inferior APs as well!"

Subscriptions are the rock on which the Grand Temple to Paizonia is built.

Paizo don't want to undermine that.


It's not an issue if you only worry abour reprinting OOP modules. New players can't get any of that stuff except through vastly inflated secondary market prices (and Paizo doesn't see any of that money either). There wouldn't be a reprint if the original never sells out. Telling new players, "You can't have this, you should've gotten in earlier. Neener, neener." isn't a sound strategy. The amount of material, its cost, the level of system mastery needed, and lack of availability for current edition products are all blocks to new players coming in; that's lost money too. PDF's can be nice until you have to print them out in a durable format at which point you're paying more for the product than you would have buying the book; also not attractive to new players. Paizo has a loyal fanbase but selliing only those who are already playing is going to give diminishing returns over time unless all current players buy everything that comes out. To new players, PF is becoming an increasingly harder sell.


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Sir Jolt wrote:
It's not an issue if you only worry abour reprinting OOP modules. New players can't get any of that stuff except through vastly inflated secondary market prices (and Paizo doesn't see any of that money either). There wouldn't be a reprint if the original never sells out. Telling new players, "You can't have this, you should've gotten in earlier. Neener, neener." isn't a sound strategy. The amount of material, its cost, the level of system mastery needed, and lack of availability for current edition products are all blocks to new players coming in; that's lost money too. PDF's can be nice until you have to print them out in a durable format at which point you're paying more for the product than you would have buying the book; also not attractive to new players. Paizo has a loyal fanbase but selliing only those who are already playing is going to give diminishing returns over time unless all current players buy everything that comes out. To new players, PF is becoming an increasingly harder sell.

Why is it a harder sell?

Buy the CRB and start playing. Pick up a new AP, get the Inner Sea Guide and a book for the area the game's set in if you want?

You don't need a complete library of everything they've ever published to play. Who could afford it all anyway? And it's all available, cheaper, in PDF, if you really want access to something.

As for APs, I assume most people buying them are buying them to play, not just to collect. You can only play so many in a year. Some people will buy and play old ones instead of the new ones. That's competing with yourself.

It may be a hard sell to collectors, but I really doubt that's the biggest chunk of the market.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tsukiyomi wrote:
Randomdays wrote:

I see where the OP is coming from, but I just can't imagine all the space it would take up. I started back in 1st edition, buying everything TSR and Judges Guild put out, along with the Dragon magazine and other RPGs like Traveller and such. With what I've bought since, minus the rare item I've had to sacrifice now and then to pay bills, I've still got over two bookcases of rpg material, plus ones for dvds, comics, games and paperback/ hardback books. If it wasn't for pdfs, I think there'd be no room for me in the house at all. For me to buy something in print these days, it would have to be something special and out of the ordinary.

If you just took everything that Paizo has put out like the OP wanted, how much space would that take up?
I assume you have a large collection of books on pdf. How has that worked out at your table? Do you have any experience with your pdfs and tablets computers?

I've tried using my PDFs on a cheap tablet, the NextBook. the experience was to put it charitably, suboptimal. I actually get better results on my iPhone. On the other hand, things work out rather well for our housemate and his IPad. So the quality of the hardware and software makes a big difference.

Contributor

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I don't really see why. Each AP is a new beginning of a new cycle. Next month starts the Reign of Winter. If a new player is interested in subscribing, I'd tell them to start with that--and not just because I wrote the fiction. It's because the first volume of any AP is designed as a starting point. With that, the Core Rules, and the Bestiaries, you can easily run a game. If the GM wants to include some cool monster from multiple volumes ago, chances are it's already in the Bestiary, and even if not, it will be in the online materials.

As for what you miss out on getting when it's first available, if something sells well enough--especially if it sells out--at some point down the road it will make economic sense to reissue it in some other form. That said, Paizo doesn't want to get into a situation where no one buys the APs when they come out, preferring to wait for compilations.

About the only trouble is the frustration of the collector's impulse to get one of everything, and the reader's frustration in not being able to read something when they want to due to the only copies in print having fallen into the collectibles market. But it's the way the book trade works. At least with PDFs there's a stopgap for those who just want to read the material, rather than have the physical ephemera in their hands.


Sir Jolt wrote:
It's not an issue if you only worry abour reprinting OOP modules. New players can't get any of that stuff except through vastly inflated secondary market prices (and Paizo doesn't see any of that money either). There wouldn't be a reprint if the original never sells out. Telling new players, "You can't have this, you should've gotten in earlier. Neener, neener." isn't a sound strategy. The amount of material, its cost, the level of system mastery needed, and lack of availability for current edition products are all blocks to new players coming in; that's lost money too. PDF's can be nice until you have to print them out in a durable format at which point you're paying more for the product than you would have buying the book; also not attractive to new players. Paizo has a loyal fanbase but selliing only those who are already playing is going to give diminishing returns over time unless all current players buy everything that comes out. To new players, PF is becoming an increasingly harder sell.

I don't get this...all of the stuff you need to play is actually in core rulebooks (with the rules available for free online), none of which are out of stock and all of which so far have been kept in print. There might be a few players options in out of print stuff, but enough to keep people from playing? no way.

Liberty's Edge

Getting my collection of Pathfinder to near completion was an expensive and lengthy process. The first 3 APs(runelords, crimson throne, darkness) I ended up getting on ebay for 60 USD each(180 for 18 volumes) . That was probably the best patience purchase I have ever made (they all were also the same seller, so he combined the shipping for me)

If I wanted anything it would be campaign setting compilations. Varisia hardback being first.


Tsukiyomi wrote:
organized wrote:

It's easy enough to get 98% of the out of print materials if you do a little E-bay stalking. Amazon works as well but it's harder to find a deal on OOP there.

Isn't that the truth, a copy of Kingmaker part 1 on ebay goes for $291 and on amazon they range from $284-$899. It's just a really disappointing situation. I've read Vic's post about the whole reprinting thing, and I completely understand the whys and why nots. I also respect that they stick to their decision. It's just really disappointing that because I'm 2 years late Kingmaker is basically out of my reach, and more over for 3.5 content, and etc. It's just discouraging.

Those are fantasy prices. The key to eBay is patience. Set up a saved search and watch until a reasonably priced auction comes along. Also check out Nobleknightgames and other resellers/shops.


Tsukiyomi wrote:
Randomdays wrote:

I see where the OP is coming from, but I just can't imagine all the space it would take up. I started back in 1st edition, buying everything TSR and Judges Guild put out, along with the Dragon magazine and other RPGs like Traveller and such. With what I've bought since, minus the rare item I've had to sacrifice now and then to pay bills, I've still got over two bookcases of rpg material, plus ones for dvds, comics, games and paperback/ hardback books. If it wasn't for pdfs, I think there'd be no room for me in the house at all. For me to buy something in print these days, it would have to be something special and out of the ordinary.

If you just took everything that Paizo has put out like the OP wanted, how much space would that take up?
I assume you have a large collection of books on pdf. How has that worked out at your table? Do you have any experience with your pdfs and tablets computers?

As a customer who has been a subscriber almost constantly since 2008, starting with Second Darkness (just had to stop my subscriptions this past month until I can afford to pick them up again), I've had the print editions and the PDFs. (A perk of subscribing, you know.) Because I do not play at home but have to travel to game, I've made a habit of using the PDFs quite a bit. I have a three-ring binder that I take with me along with the Core Rulebook and the GM Screen. Everything else I want at the table, I take in the three-ring binder printed from my PDFs. I put my print-outs in plastic sheet protectors. (In combat I often write on the plastic sheet protectors with wet-erase marker. It's very handy, actually.) There's so much in Advanced Player's Guide that I think I'm going to have to start taking that with me too though, I don't want to print all the stuff I want out of it.

I can't wait until I can pick up my subscription again, because as it stands I'll be picking up everything I miss twice, both as the PDF and the hardcopy. (I'm also a completist collector.)

Both the books and the PDFs have their benefits. I'd love to see some compilations come along myself, particularly of the "Revisited" ecology books. I understand it's not practical from a business position though. Most of the 3.5e Revisited books don't need much converted to Pathfinder though, because they generally have 5 pages of fluff followed by 1 page of monster entry. The 1 page of monster entry is useless in the 3.5e books because it's just usually reprint of the OGL version of the creature, but it doesn't break the book to read it with it in there. If anything, I'd just love to see the troll art updated in the Classic Monsters Revisited book. (Paizo didn't pin down what a Pathfinder troll looked like until the Pathfinder Bestiary cover art.)


organized wrote:

It's easy enough to get 98% of the out of print materials if you do a little E-bay stalking. Amazon works as well but it's harder to find a deal on OOP there.

the only problem with ebay/amazon is that it is a crapshoot as to the condition of the books. i've been a collector of d&d for many years (now adding pathfinder to my collection) and i can tell you from experience the definitions of "new" and "mint" are very flexible among countless dishonest sellers.


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It would be nice to see Second Darkness and the other 3.5 APs updated.

Shadow Lodge

I can only speak for myself.

I only every single AP that Paizo has printed, from Shackled City in Dungeon #97 all the way to the latest copy of Shattered Star. I've been a subscriber for every AP since Runelords (save a hiatus during Legacy of Fire, but I went back and did purchase those). I grabbed the Shackled City hardcover and the Runelords Anniversary Edition.

I have no problem with Paizo reprinting material that was originally printed for 3.5 and updating it for Pathfinder. Like many others have suggested, I would gladly wrap my arms around an anniversary edition of Crimson Throne, and it would do nothing to my desire to remain a subscriber.

I'd actually think this makes business sense. I'm just guessing, but I'd wager than the Runelords Anniversary edition is leading to an uptick in sales of Runelords flip-mats, miniatures and accessories. Especially if the scope of reprinting is clearly stated that it will be done only for 3.5 material, and not material that was printed originally for the PF ruleset.

Although, one could argue, if you were to consider making a Pathfinder 2E, that holding a Crimson Throne Anniversary Edition updated for PF2E would make a really compelling strategy.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Thanael wrote:
Also check out Nobleknightgames...

I have a feeling that following your suggestion is going to end up costing me a lot of money. They've got some fantastic stuff. :o

Sovereign Court

I imagine that we'll see a CotCT anniversary edition at the 10/15 year anniversary.

We might then look forward to LoF at the 15/20 and SD at 20/25.

SD will be the hardest to update as it needs some serious re-writes.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Just to reiterate, we have no plans to collect older Adventure Paths into hardcovers at this time.

Liberty's Edge

There are a thousand Vic posts about it, but even having semi regular compilations of old 3.5 product would serve to undermine the current business model. I personally love the uniqueness of the Runelords AE. If given the choice between rehashing old content and new, I would choose new almost every time.

Silver Crusade

Shalafi2412 wrote:
It would be nice to see Second Darkness and the other 3.5 APs updated.

To be honest, I only want the other 3.5 APs collected and updated. I don't think that if they make it clear that they're ONLY doing those 3.5 out of print APs, it wouldn't cause a loss of subscribers. I mean they are not Pathfinder complaint without more work for the DM. They feel "stranded" and that's a shame.

I've heard people say they arent buying those PDFs because they are 3.5. Add to that the huge number of newer Paizo fans that have arrived since Pathfinder exploded There Is money left on the table here, rather than potential lost AP sub profits.

Contributor

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Tsukiyomi wrote:


-Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond

Hasn't everything with stats in here already been updated to PFRPG? Outside of the monsters in the back, there weren't many rules elements there in the first place.

That said I'd love to see a PF planes hardcover. :)

Scarab Sages

So say we all...


GeraintElberion wrote:


Wouldn't that just be further encouraging people not to subscribe.

"Hey, if you don't subscribe we'll make sure you only get the good ones but if you subscribe you're stuck with the inferior APs as well!"

Turn it around. The popular ones go out of print faster, right? Reprinting them *five years* later isn't going to affect their sales one bit -- they'll have been long OOP by then.

The less popular ones stay in print longer... but the fact that they're never going to be reprinted means that people will be motivated to hunt them down and buy them up.

GeraintElberion wrote:

Subscriptions are the rock on which the Grand Temple to Paizonia is built.

Paizo don't want to undermine that.

Sure, sure. They're never going to do this, because they're playing it safe. And I can't blame them for that. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they break down and do a CotCT hardcover, but I'm really not expecting it.

Note again that we're probably less than five years away from PF 2.0 at this point. It's not going to happen this year, nor next year either. But if it hasn't happened by 2018, I for one will be pretty surprised. They haven't run through all the available design space yet, but they're probably around the halfway point. And at some point both the various imperatives are going to become overwhelming. So, quite likely this discussion is moot; they'll just keep doing what they're doing until the big jump to The New Thing takes place.

Doug M.

Sovereign Court

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:


Wouldn't that just be further encouraging people not to subscribe.

"Hey, if you don't subscribe we'll make sure you only get the good ones but if you subscribe you're stuck with the inferior APs as well!"

Turn it around. The popular ones go out of print faster, right? Reprinting them *five years* later isn't going to affect their sales one bit -- they'll have been long OOP by then.

The less popular ones stay in print longer... but the fact that they're never going to be reprinted means that people will be motivated to hunt them down and buy them up.

GeraintElberion wrote:

Subscriptions are the rock on which the Grand Temple to Paizonia is built.

Paizo don't want to undermine that.

Sure, sure. They're never going to do this, because they're playing it safe. And I can't blame them for that. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they break down and do a CotCT hardcover, but I'm really not expecting it.

Note again that we're probably less than five years away from PF 2.0 at this point. It's not going to happen this year, nor next year either. But if it hasn't happened by 2018, I for one will be pretty surprised. They haven't run through all the available design space yet, but they're probably around the halfway point. And at some point both the various imperatives are going to become overwhelming. So, quite likely this discussion is moot; they'll just keep doing what they're doing until the big jump to The New Thing takes place.

Doug M.

There is no need for a Pathfinder2.0

Why copy the flawed business practise of others.

It is in no way inevitable.

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