Never gonna happen, but I wish we could keep older content alive


Paizo General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I did not buy the RotRL hardcover because I have the original ones and had already finished running it. I would however love to buy CotCT (even though we finished it) just becausecit is my fav AP and Second Darkness as well, since that one more than any other AP needs a director's cut.


GeraintElberion wrote:


There is no need for a Pathfinder2.0

It is in no way inevitable.

It is inevitable, and for a wide range of reasons. The only question is when.

(Turn it around: let's assume that Paizo is still a thriving business in 2025. You really think PFRPG 1.0 will still be their flagship product?)

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paizo's flagship product is Adventure Path line. That's what their business is built around.

Sovereign Court

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:


There is no need for a Pathfinder2.0

It is in no way inevitable.

It is inevitable, and for a wide range of reasons. The only question is when.

(Turn it around: let's assume that Paizo is still a thriving business in 2025. You really think PFRPG 1.0 will still be their flagship product?)

Doug M.

I wouldn't like to make assumptions either way but I don't see why not.

What are the reasons?

I'm being entirely sincere here: I can't see the reasons and would love to have them explained.


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It's getting OT for this thread, but:

1) Economic. At some point, it will become increasingly difficult to sell PF stuff because the market will be saturated. Gamers with bookshelves full of PF books and tablets full of .pdfs won't have a compelling reason to purchase more stuff. Paizo can fend off this day with clever marketing and recruiting new gamers, but eventually, inevitably, sales are going to fall. It happened with 1e, 2e, and 3e; there's no reason to think PF will be magically immune.

Now, the jumps out of 1e, 2e and 3e were all complicated by the particular problems TSR and Wizards were going through just then. But declining sales were a significant factor in all three cases. Also, note that the rollouts of 2e, 3.0, and Pathfinder were all major financial successes. (3.5 and 4e less so, but that's another story.) All saw an explosion of new business, boosting sales and income to a dramatically higher level where they stayed for some time. The rollout of 2e gave TSR a second lease on life, and the rollout of 3.e arguably saved the whole hobby. So there's serious opportunity there -- as well as serious risk, of course.

2) Design space. Any RPG has a limited design space which it eventually exhausts. So, for instance, we already have a couple of magic splatbooks, extra class and race splatbooks, books for equipment, NPCs, and so forth. All the PC races have a book already, as do almost all the popular monster types (dragons, giants, goblins, orcs...)There are already hundreds of spells and thousands of feats. The Golarion setting already has done "Elves of Golarion", "Dwarves of Golarion", etc., etc., along with books on most of the major nations and cities, the Underdark, the planes, and even Golarion's solar system.

The PF staff is aware of the issue -- James Jacobs has specifically mentioned it several times -- and are doing their best to burn through the design space as slowly as possible. But at some point they'll have to either reboot, or be reduced to trying to sell "The Big Book of Polearms" and "Livestock of Golarion".

3) Advances in the art. Peace to my old-time gamer friends, but one reason most of us aren't playing 1st Edition anymore is that 1e was a pretty crude, primitive system compared to what we have today. All kinds of new concepts have entered our vocabulary since then, and our toolkits for designing and playing games have dramatically expanded.

And that's a process that's not going to stop. People will keep coming up with clever new ideas -- some from within PF, some from other tabletop RPGs, some imported from video games and elsewhere. PF may be able to incorporate some of these new concepts, but at some point the system is going to start showing its age. I would argue that it's already showing its age; it's a 2008 upgrade of the 2000-vintage 3.x engine, and a lot has happened in gaming since 2000. But let that bide. Even if you think PF is still the cutting edge, at *some* point the 3.x engine is going to be as obsolete as ThAC0s and 18/percentile Strength scores.

(This one really breaks down into 3(a) -- new mechanics, like feats and healing surges, and 3(b) -- new styles and chrome. But both push in the same direction.)

There are others, but this is getting long. One last point, then. Consider the history:

OD&D 1974
AD&D / 1st edition 1977-79
2nd edition 1989
3rd edition 2000
4th edition 2008
Pathfinder 2008

-- ignoring wrinkles like the Basic Sets and 3.5, we see that 1e lasted about 10-12 years, 2e for 11 years, 3.x for 8 years, and 4th edition just 5 years. The common thread we see is that every edition has come to an end. Wait, let's say that again: EVERY EDITION OF D&D HAS COME TO AN END. That's no accident, and there's no reason to think that the trend will suddenly and magically stop now. Every edition of D&D has come to an end, and -- someday -- so will Pathfinder.

PF will end, and be replaced by something else. Not this year, not next year, but sometime within the next few years. And that's fine. It's how these things work. Let's wait, cross fingers, and hope the new thing is as good or better.

Doug M.

Sovereign Court

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Interesting. Some counter-ideas.

1) The way reboots are tied to economics seems to be about new companies recasting the RPG in their image after it has had problems.

Even if we accept that rulebook saturation was the cause of declining sales (and reading Lisa Stevens & Ryan Dancey's comments on the end of TSR it seems like there were many other causes of declining sales, like too many campaign settings) it does not really follow that an adventure company which has a suporting ruleset (Paizo) is going to have the same problems as a ruleset company which has accompanying adventures (TSR, WotC).

If we accept that Pathfinder is, mostly, a way to continue printing 3rd edition then it has a success built upon not changing ruleset while WotC are rushing out 5th edition with a lot of callbacks to the past.

Maybe people don't want a new rulest so much? And maybe 3rd edition re-energised the hobby for a lot of other reasons beyond simply presenting a new ruleset (like engaging 3pp)?

The key point seems to be that the market is already saturated with Paizo's main product. They have released enough APs to keep most groups playing until 2025!

So, I'm not sure this is the same economic model as before.

2) The idea of design space is interesting but I have, it seems, been taking something different from JJ's comments. He has talked about releasing the APG/UM/UC early in the cycle so that they can be supported across the RPG and not feel like awkward add-ons.

I don't see why reaching the end of a second underwater-psionics supplement in the rules line is going to force PFv2 though.

They're not a ruleset company, Paizo are an adventure company using a pre-existing ruleset.

As for running out of Golarion... I don't really see how new ruleset = new Golarion. Are they really going to explode the setting like FR? Or move on?

I actually think that looking at a map of Golarion shows that in 5 years they have barely scratched the surface of the Inner Sea Region: Yep, they've got Elves of Golarion but elf-fans are still waiting for the Guide to Kyonin, Guide to the Mordant Spire, Guide to the Forlorn...

Taldor? Nirmathas? Numeria? Golarion is a setting which keeps on giving and has so many intriguing corners just in the Inner Sea.

Et in Arcadia Ego

3) I'm not sure the 'art' has ever advanced in order to bring improvements to the game. It seems to me that those changes/improvements have come about because a new edition was driven by other reasons and the new designers just jumped at the chance.

Is three saves better than 7? Does Thac0 actually hinder gameplay? Maybe. I just don't see ruleset innovation as inevitable or necessary: clearly a lot of people thought that innovating the ruleset to 4th edition was not such a great idea. Are you certain that DnDnext will be an innovative system built upon new and improved-ness?

---

A final thought or two:
All good things come to an end but that end is not inevitable and it is not part of some organic, developing system of RPGness or DNDness.

I'm not really clear on the move to 2e but it seems to me that 3e was caused by business failures during 2e; 4e was caused by a misreading of the market by a publisher which threw away market dominance to make short-term mad-rulebook-cash; and 5e is a scrambling acknowledgement of the failings of 4e.

3e has been gently adjusted twice (3.5 and PF) but it has never come to an end. Even if you write it in ALL CAPS OF TRUTH.

Pathfinder is proof that the market doesn't want new rules: it wants new stories and new adventures, and it wants them to be really well executed.

Like I said, I might be wrong. So might you.

I'm still not convinced that "we're probably less than five years away from PF2.0".

Stretch your time-frames and the chance of problems affecting PF increases but PF2.0 by 2017? I wouldn't be so sure.


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Excellent arguments gentlemen. Both sides presented well. And without name calling :) There is hope for the internet yet...

Contributor

R_Chance wrote:
Excellent arguments gentlemen. Both sides presented well. And without name calling :) There is hope for the internet yet...

Here, here. I like Douglas' and Geraint's posts both a bunch. Thoughtful and productive argumentation on both sides, y'all.


Agreed on the above post. Well-thought out and logical arguments all-around.

I just wanted to add my two cents. I think that a version 2.0 for Pathfinder is a ways off, but I think it'll happen, and probably in the next three to four years we'll start seeing the ground-work for it, but it isn't going to be a massive rule-set change from the current version. Instead, it'll be a major revision and refinement of the rules, just like the current version of the Pathfinder rules is to the 3.5 rule-set. Classes will change slightly in most cases, rules and mechanics will be clarified and in a very few cases, something will be completely rewritten to make it a viable or to make it less of a game-breaker. Some things will get the axe because it's just bloat. The biggest change will probably be make-up of the books in the core line. Similar rules from the different core lines would be consolidated to be easier to reference.

Personally, I'd like to see a class that has something akin to the words of power mechanic and true spontaneous casting (ie you create the effects ad hoc, instead of having a list of spells you know at a certain level and a certain number that you can cast per day.)


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Count me on the side of "there's plenty of design space left to explore". Granted, I'll agree that eventually they'll run out of stuff but that eventuality is a looooong way off.

As for Paizo already having books that cover "most of the major nations, etc.": here is where I definitely disagree. I'm with GeraintElberion on this one. They've barely scratched the surface. There are over fifty areas in the Inner Sea region alone and not even half of them have received extensive or even moderate coverage. Plus, there's still multiple continents that have yet to be even touched and they can always expand on the material already published for the solar system and the planes since the current published material is fairly light.


1) Economics: as I said, the ends of 1e and 2e were complicated by what was happening with TSR and Wizards at the time. However, in both cases sales were declining, and in both cases sales increased dramatically after the introduction of the new edition.

I'm not sure how Paizo being "an adventure company that has an accompanying ruleset" makes a difference. Sure, Paizo is making money off a range of products, rulesets and APs and modules and books. But so was TSR, and so was Wizards. Paizo does have a difference in emphasis -- it's built around the APs in a way that has no close analogy to TSR or Wizards -- but I don't think it's a difference that is going to strongly affect the economic imperatives.

Engaging 3PP: I agree that this was a brilliant stroke. It's clear now that not going with OGL was one of 4e's greatest mistakes, just as PF's success is in part driven by their willingness, not merely to continue with the OGL, but to actively embrace it. But I also think that the success of 3e was driven by other things. To name three, 2e had achieved saturation and was losing both market and market share; 2e had exhausted its design space and gone stagnant (man, just *look* at some of the 2e products from the late 90s); and the rollout of 3e was incredibly well managed, with teasers and the "countdowns" in Dragon magazine and all.

And then of course, 3e was just a better system -- see below.

2) Design space -- James mentioned getting the major splatbooks out early, but he has also several times discussed design space. (Usually in terms of how 4e has made a mistake in burning through it too fast.)

Now, there are several sorts of design space. Broadly speaking we can distinguish three types: rules, chrome, and setting. Rules are probably the most limiting, because there are only so many interesting and useful rules you can come up with. Yes, in theory the space of potential rules is infinite, but in practice Paizo already has a ruleset that is complete enough for 99% of all games. And as a practical matter, nobody is going to pay $29.95 for the Handbook of Underwater Psionics. (Okay, not nobody. There's always somebody. But not enough somebodies to make it economically viable.)

The consumption of rulespace also leads to other problems. It becomes ever harder to design new rules that are consistent, and not redundant, yet still useful or at least interesting. No matter how careful you are, splatbook bloat inevitably leads to power creep as clever players come up with new ways to exploit new rules. And the gap between experienced players and noobs grows ever bigger, as gaining mastery over a bigger ruleset takes ever more time.

The existence of 3PPs actually makes the rulespace problem worse. Yes, from a business POV 3PP are a net positive. They bring in new gamers, they're a fertile source of new ideas, yadda yadda, all that good stuff. But there are drawbacks to the OGL system, and one of them is that 3PPs chew up your design space even faster. To give an obvious example, there are already two complete psionics systems for PF on the market, so it would be difficult for Paizo to introduce their own even if they wanted to (which, by all accounts, they don't).

Chromespace is much less of a problem, because chrome is infinite. That said, chrome is an indirect problem, because as a system ages and it becomes harder to write new rules, writing chrome becomes more attractive. This leads to the system becoming more baroque, more opaque, and less accessible to new gamers.

Setting space... I see people saying, but Golarion is HUGE! There's decades of good stuff yet to go in there! Well, yes and no. Yes, Golarion is huge. But OTOH, the most interesting, most obvious and most relevant bits have already been done. Absalom, Korvosa, Magnimar, Osirion, Cheliax, done done done and long since. Yes, there's still room to do, let's say, a splatbook on a pseudo-Aztec kingdom in the middle of Arcadia. But that requires people to be interested in buying a splatbook about a pseudo-Aztec kingdom. History shows that the market for this is limited.

3) Has the art advanced? Heck yes. Yes, three saving throws that make sense are better than seven that Gary made up out of whole cloth one Sunday afternoon in Lake Geneva. 3e has its drawbacks and 1e its advantages, but overall 3e is clearly superior. 4e was a misstep, sure. But the fact that Wizards screwed up does not mean that forward progress has stopped.

As to ALL CAPS OF TRUTH, I'll stand by that and double down. It's not just D&D, but a general truth that applies to ALL tabletop RPGs. How many rulesets -- not worlds, but rulesets -- last 20 years? (By "last" I mean stay in print continuously. Nostalgic revivals don't count.) I can think of maybe three, and they're all very small niche games. Go back twenty years: what were people playing in early 1993? D&D 2e, Classic World of Darkness, GURPS Second Edition, MegaTraveller, Call of Cthulhu 5th edition, original Runequest. Okay, where are those rulesets now? They're all gone.

PF, one day, will join them. The only question is when.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
As to ALL CAPS OF TRUTH, I'll stand by that and double down. It's not just D&D, but a general truth that applies to ALL tabletop RPGs. How many rulesets -- not worlds, but rulesets -- last 20 years? (By "last" I mean stay in print continuously. Nostalgic revivals don't count.) I can think of maybe three, and they're all very small niche games. Go back twenty years: what were people playing in early 1993? 2e, Classic World of Darkness, GURPS Second Edition, MegaTraveller, Call of Cthulhu 5th edition, original Runequest. Okay, where are those rulesets now? They're all gone.

Call of Cthulhu is still almost exactly the same ruleset as in 1981. The differences between each edition amount to 3 skills, 2 spells and 1 monster.

You're underestimating the importance of APs. Paizo needs a steady monthly stream of revenue generated by subscriptions. The most popular and money-making sub is the AP sub. It's the core of the business. The RPG ruleset is there so that there are rules in print that allow you to run the APs.

As for the setting material: sure, for you all the "intereseting and relevant bits" such as Absalom and Magnimar are done, but there are people like me who are waiting for the *actually intereseting* bits like Numeria and each of the Distant Worlds planets and Great Beyond planes so don't worry, there will be customers for the books for long time. :)


Gorbacz wrote:


Call of Cthulhu is still almost exactly the same ruleset as in 1981. The differences between each edition amount to 3 skills, 2 spells and 1 monster.

CoC is currently on its sixth edition. And that's not counting the fractional editions like 5.5.

Doug M.


Gorbacz wrote:


You're underestimating the importance of APs.

The ruleset issue is to some extent orthogonal to the APs. Remember, the first three APs were 3.5, not Pathfinder. So Paizo has successfully navigated one ruleset change already. There's no reason to think they couldn't do it again.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


Call of Cthulhu is still almost exactly the same ruleset as in 1981. The differences between each edition amount to 3 skills, 2 spells and 1 monster.

CoC is currently on its sixth edition. And that's not counting the fractional editions like 5.5.

Doug M.

Yeah, I have them all, in PDF or print. The differences are minimal, aesthetics aside. They're more like reprints with errata and updates and less than editions in the D&D sense. Heck, if you count them as separate editions, then you should split 4E into barebones vanilla 4E, Essentials 4E, Red Box 4E and 4E with all 120+ pages of errata/updates taken into account, making it at least four editions, if not more.

I can take a CoC adventure from 1981 and run it in 2012 using the current edition of the game and all I'd have to change is two skills.

And the funny thing is that of all RPG companies the *only* company to still exist for 30 years with the same corporate ownership (read: two guys) is Chaosium, who is basically reprinting the same game since day one. They must be doing something right.


Hokey doke, I'll spot you CoC. On its best day CoC accounted for, generously, maybe 5% of the tabletop RPG market? So we're looking at 95% turnover in the last 20 years.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Hokey doke, I'll spot you CoC. On its best day CoC accounted for, generously, maybe 5% of the tabletop RPG market? So we're looking at 95% turnover in the last 20 years.

Doug M.

It's all matter of scale. CoC is a niche game, PF is mainstream. Why wouldn't CoC's business model work on bigger scale? Paizo's people are the ones that launched White Wolf's WoD(which used to be the strongest competition of WotC until they fumbled it with nWoD) and Magic the Gathering (still the biggest earner in the industry, 20 years later). I like to think that they know what they're doing.

Look, WotC's model is obviously done for it. By being a rules-producing company they have painted themselves in a corner they can't escape from. They can't switch to adventure-producing model because Paizo pretty much dominates that spot and has all the eggs in their basket.

What they are doing right now is the only wise thing to do: do 5E, target it on the only part of D&D fanbase that doesn't have a strong brand covering them (read: 1E/2E fans) while marketing the game as a "catch them all" edition in hope of catching some stray 3E/4E fans.

But in several years, they'll have to print a new edition (tangent: if this one is D&D Next, what will be the next one? D&D More Next? D&D NextNext?) because that's what their core customer base expects from them.

Pathfinder customer base, OTOH, is full of "we're here because we're sick and tired of edition changes every 5 years".

Contributor

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There's also the wise decision with Paizo to keep the world of Golarion relatively separate from the main rule books so that people who want to play Pathfinder with a different world--or even their own homebrew--don't have to pick up world-specific setting books to pick up essential spells that should have been in the core books.

Shadow Lodge

I personally enjoy evolving rules. I'll provide some examples in the Paizo universe, as well.

In Kingmaker, I gladly began with the kingdom building rules that were covered in a handful of pages in the AP. However, I found some of the rules "buggy" and with a starting plan to develop out house rules, I hit the forums to see what other folks have done. While it's not perfect, the 3PP product by Jon Brazer helped rationalize some of the parts I was having trouble with (distances, population and magic item economies being the worst offenders). I'd hungrily gobble up a "3rd revision" (from my perspective at least), if Paizo printed something updated based on all the playtesting that has now transpired.

Next off the top of my mind -- naval ship combat rules. We've come a long way from the partial page in Savage Tide, to more elaboration in the GMG, finally to the rules printed in Skull & Shackles. Even still, fans have provided great updates to these - most noteworthy, the rules that ensure a 4-5 person party all have something to do each round, versus just the captain/helmsman.

I've gladly welcomed each iteration on these rules. None of these required a whole new edition, despite their mind-numbing incompatibilities (like a ship's HP).

This is an area where software does VERY well. However you feel about them, MMO games provide patches at regular intervals that mechanically tune their systems. There's no reason tabletop RPG companies need to embrace a "let's never issue a patch because we may upset some of our players". Its one of the things that can actually make a tabletop more vibrant that it was back in 1980.

The vehicle for these doesn't have to be "reprint everything from scratch". Paizo could print another book in the Ultimate line and present a brand new (non-ninja) iteration of the Rogue class or a brand new iteration of the Summoner.

The proof is in the pudding with the Runelords Anniversary edition. It has made some absolutely great additions to smooth out the adventure. I've very fond of the additional "scenes" in Burnt Offerings that help PCs connect to the story-line.

I've gotten the sense that a lot about Paizo's APs isn't even just the printed modules ($120 retail price). But GMs then pick up the miniatures, the flip-mats, the additional cards, the supporting setting books (like Magnimar, Varisia for Runelords), etc. With such an investment into the prospect of running an AP, I gladly welcome an updated revision that fixes/balances/patches the rough spots.

With a little TLC, Second Darkness could be an amazing adventure path instead of relegated to the "skip me" pile. Seeing these updates (even if they are only limited to the 3.5e rule content) would breath new life into a lot of our collective investments!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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As many of you know, one of the biggest issues that lead to TSR's insolvency is the proliferation of campaign settings. When they were actively selling one or two or three campaign settings to their audience, a big chunk of their audience would buy any given book they were releasing. When they were actively selling seven or eight campaign settings, only a small fraction of the audience would buy any given release.

A similar problem exists with APs, as the typical gaming group plays only one at a time. Right now, a group looking for an AP might well rule out the 3.5 ones, and the ones that have volumes out of print, so that leaves them 7 APs to consider—or, assuming quality and appeal being similar among them, a 1 in 7 chance they'll buy the current product. If we updated the 3.5 ones, and reprinted the out-of-print volumes, the odd that they'd choose the current release drop to 1 in 12.

The simple fact is that we need to sell you what we're making more than we need to sell you what we've made, and allowing things to go out of print is therefore a necessity.

And when those out-of-print volumes go for big money on eBay, that's actually helpful in that it helps establish an upward trend for the future value of a present subscription, and underlines the fact that the best time to subscribe to our lines is "as soon as possible."

Sovereign Court

Doug, one thing I kind of glossed over because I didn't understand it.

What do you mean by 'chrome'?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I've shifted from being one of those wishing Paizo would do reprints to being glad they dont. I didnt really understand why but Laschoni made a good point upthread which captures my view, I think:

Laschoni wrote:
I personally love the uniqueness of the Runelords AE. If given the choice between rehashing old content and new, I would choose new almost every time.

Energy devoted to updating and improving old stuff is nice, but it's still ultimately old stuff.

That's not to say that I wouldnt want them to keep revisiting and expanding on old material (a la the evolution from gazetteer to campaign setting to ISWG). I'm keenly awaiting a more in depth visit to Absalom than we got first time around. :)


GeraintElberion wrote:

Doug, one thing I kind of glossed over because I didn't understand it.

What do you mean by 'chrome'?

This is just a guess, but chrome is the flavor of the class. For example, the mechanics behind how the ninja's abilities work are the rules, the names and descriptors for those mechanics are the chrome.

As for why Paizo focusing on adventures and modules is significantly different from them focusing on rules and splatbooks, think about how technology normally advances. Each refinement results in a less noticeable improvement. Rules are the same way. Each iteration results in smaller returns for the work done. Returns in this case are how easy the system is to use and learn, how streamlined it is, and how flexible it is. Adventures, though, only need a good imagination and some writing skill. Pick a place that you haven't explored and imagine the twisted plots that it could be a part of. Find a NPC that was only used a little bit in a previous adventure and expand on their background. Each adventure contains the seeds for many more if you have the will to go after them.

To put it another way, the rules are ancillary to the adventures, much like an understanding of art history is ancillary to art, or mathematics is ancillary to Computer Science. They advance, yes, but at a much slower pace than before. I think that the rules are the same way. They advance as the pieces are stretched and stressed by players, but ultimately, they are not where Paizo is advancing the most. As long as they avoid trapping themselves into doing derivative, formulaic adventures, then they could last for many more years without a single update to the rules.

As I said in a previous post, I think that another iteration of the rules is in the cards, but it's probably more than five years off.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, when you take a look at things, a lot of the material has been reprinted or will likely see reprint in some other format (especially the 3.5 stuff).

Old monsters are regularly reprinted in the Bestiaries.

Campaign Setting material has been reprinted in the Inner Sea Guide, and some of it has popped up partially in new campaign setting books.

I could see a lot of the "races of" book information getting reprinted into Kyonin and other similar books.

Really the diety stuff has been the material most left out to dry, and even then there have been vague rumors that some of that might get reprinted into a Dieties book.

Sovereign Court

Just a note on something earlier.

I mentioned sourcebooks fo Underwater Psionics because they exist!

The reviews are very positive as well, there are a lot of cool little niches in this hobby.

Liberty's Edge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:


There is no need for a Pathfinder2.0

It is in no way inevitable.

It is inevitable, and for a wide range of reasons. The only question is when.

(Turn it around: let's assume that Paizo is still a thriving business in 2025. You really think PFRPG 1.0 will still be their flagship product?)

Doug M.

Personally, I think new core books are coming sooner rather than later. I just think they'll still be PF1.0. I'm hoping for a reprinting of the Core Rulebook splitting it into two books, once smaller and cheap with the rules and four classes & races and one bigger with everything else, while also incorporating some of the options such as archetypes (class and racial) into the mix, the new formatting, and newest errata.

And that'd also be the time to make small tweaks and clarifications they couldn't before due to space, such as hide.
But still PF 1.0

As for running out of design space... PF is still essentially 3e and has avoided doing many books that 3e has already done, such as Manual of the Planes (although we've seen some smaller Golarion specific ones), Epic rules, and psionics. It's running off a variation on the ruleset first seen in 2000, making PF part of the longest edition of D&D ever at 13+ years.
Now, one of the reasons commonly cited for making a new edition is running out of book ideas. But this just means re-releasing books under a variant edition, not changing any of the flavour or side content. It makes people re-buy the books. But, with PDFs, the flavour never goes away.
You get the same result by printing a revision of the old idea under the old ruleset. People still have to re-buy their books, but now it's optional and you can expand the flavour in new directions giving them more.

The exception is crunch heavy books. Bloat does kill games, and PF is nearing a bloat limit. A new edition does help this as it resets the content. But this isn't the only option. Switching to side content and alternative rules is an option. It add content without adding bloat to every character.
This is the route PF seems to be taking, with Ultimate Campaign and Mythic Adventures. There's lots more big books to be done when you look at a game system with that in mind, especially when you're only doing two a year.

Liberty's Edge

Tsukiyomi wrote:
With limited funding for table gaming pathfinder has become my go to game. I also really enjoy Golarion as it's a "new" take on high fantasy. It just feels fresh for some reason. Paizo's products are also stellar with good quality and content. However there is just one problem. I'm a bit obsessive about content. Now that I know Pathfinder is gonna be my go to game for tabletop, I hunger for all the content. I want to get all the Core rules, Chronicles, Companions, Adventures Paths, and Modules. I'm also a bit of a traditionist about my books. I greatly prefer books over Pdfs. I work with computers all day and spend most of my time staring at a screen, so it's a welcome break when I get to actually sit down with a gaming book and read.

I imagine as Print on Demand technology gets better this will become less of an issue, but until then you can buy the PDFs and send them to your local Kinkos/Staples/ FL Print Store.

Or this can become your mission. Looking through local game stores and at conventions for missing modules and AP volumes. Trawling eBay and Amazon for copies at reasonable prices.
You are competing with all the other completionists out there but sometimes you get lucky.

Many of the OOP books might be found relatively cheaply. The early APs will be the hardest, but you can skil RotRL.

A digital reader is another option. It's amazing how quickly I got used to relaxing with my iPad before bed reading an RPG book or comic.


This is a great thread, as I've been down this route numerous times, including picking up older PF stuff.

Lots of great discussion, some older, some more recent, so I'm gonna multi-quote here a few different folks:

Randomdays wrote:
If you just took everything that Paizo has put out like the OP wanted, how much space would that take up?

Not counting maps, cards, ancillary stuff like that - specifically, just books? About 4-5 feet of shelf space, possibly less. If I were to condense how I've got my stuff organized, and remove out duplicate copies of stuff, possibly 3-4 feet of shelf space.

MMCJawa wrote:
Sir Jolt wrote:
To new players, PF is becoming an increasingly harder sell.
I don't get this...all of the stuff you need to play is actually in core rulebooks (with the rules available for free online), none of which are out of stock and all of which so far have been kept in print. There might be a few players options in out of print stuff, but enough to keep people from playing? no way.

Nothing out of print actually keeps someone from playing, but there's a couple reasons to backup the comment about becoming a hard sell.

A> Misconceptions about what is needed to play. Ignoring free online content for a moment, those of us in the know are already aware that you really only need the CRB, and we're also aware of the product delineation between the Campaign Setting (including modules, APs, etc) and the RPG.

But other folks? They don't necessarily know about that. When some look at a long-running edition of a game, and seeing that not only are there lots of books available, there's lots of stuff out of print (noticing, for example, that the shop only has issues 58-current of the AP line).

I myself have been overwhelmed in the past by the breadth of content available for a game, based on those misconceptions.

B> Completist collectors, or those who desire to be. I'm often the former, and at one time, was the latter. Regardless of my ability (or lack thereof) to be a completist collector, being presented with the possibility of not actually being able to do so can be a turn-off.

Yes, I have ignored picking up certain products or lines that I'm interested in because the prospect of not being able to Pokemon it has turned me off to doing so.

Now, I realize that those in section B are likely a significantly smaller population of folks than those in section A, but that's just a couple of reasons why a latecomer to the game could fall under the "hard sell" label.

---

Regarding ridiculous eBay/Amazon prices:

Thanael wrote:
Those are fantasy prices. The key to eBay is patience. Set up a saved search and watch until a reasonably priced auction comes along. Also check out Nobleknightgames and other resellers/shops.

This is absolutely correct. Patience and an understanding of how some of these sites work is key to finding deals.

Amazon is overran by repricing software that a lot of people don't know how to use, and RPG stuff is sold by even more people that know nothing about RPGs, and have crazy ideas about what something is worth, or crazy methods of determining their pricing.

The Amazon issue is that a lot of Marketplace sellers configure (or misconfigure) their pricing software with various rules, and this causes prices to automatically skyrocket for no valid reason. You'll see a correction of these errors occur when someone manually lists one of these books for the reasonable/market-appropriate price, and the autopricers then compensate downwards. Unfortunately, if someone buys the manually-listed item, the same problem returns.

This is where the patience comes in.

On some of these books, you just need to wait out the crazy-storm and, most of the time, the prices will normalize.

Laschoni wrote:
Getting my collection of Pathfinder to near completion was an expensive and lengthy process. The first 3 APs(runelords, crimson throne, darkness) I ended up getting on ebay for 60 USD each(180 for 18 volumes) . That was probably the best patience purchase I have ever made (they all were also the same seller, so he combined the shipping for me)

And here's an example of a phenomenal deal that can be had, if you're patient.

Shinsplint the Wanderer wrote:
the only problem with ebay/amazon is that it is a crapshoot as to the condition of the books. i've been a collector of d&d for many years (now adding pathfinder to my collection) and i can tell you from experience the definitions of "new" and "mint" are very flexible among countless dishonest sellers.

I've had the same experience, but, MOST sellers are pretty accurate in their description. Further, in my experience, with eBay/Paypal or Amazon, if the seller misrepresents the condition, I've had good luck with refunds and returns. Always withhold feedback until you inspect the book, and it's to your satisfaction - that is, within the applicable condition guidelines. Both Amazon and eBay have pretty clear/specific condition grading guidelines, so what may be "Fair" to you is "Good" according to the printed guidelines.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Note again that we're probably less than five years away from PF 2.0 at this point.

This doesn't seem an unreasonable suggestion/timeframe.

GeraintElberion wrote:

There is no need for a Pathfinder2.0

Why copy the flawed business practise of others.

It is in no way inevitable.

Note that "new edition" or "version 2.0" does not suggest the complete overhaul and incompatibility that some assume. CoC is a great example of this. 3E to 3.5 is a reasonable example.

Further, edition change, even in a "complete overhaul" model, isn't necessarily a flawed business practice. It really depends on the market for the product, and how the presentation for that overhaul is handled.

PF 2.0, really, is inevitable, but needn't be a complete departure from the existing rules - and a new version would allow certain contentious systems a greater latitude for overhaul that, per comments from the devs, doesn't exist now - all the while allowing others to only minimally change (or not even change at all).


Getting back to the OP, I've got two observations...

1) Why do you need it all? You can play with very little, actually. It sounds more like you are trying start a collection. That's fine, but your collecting habits are not a 100% match for the game design.

2) There's an opportunity cost here in addition to the financial reasons mentioned above. Every hour someone spends on rewriting an older adventure, that's an hour they DON'T spend on something new. That gives us either fewer, or shabbier products.

And I don't want that. So, I accept limited print runs as the consequence. There's still MORE than enough to play. Honestly, they write faster than my group plays, so we'll never catch up.

Dark Archive

Personally, I don't see the need for Pathfinder 2.0

I'd happily buy a new core rule book which kept the existing rules but organised them better. I fact, I may need to buy a new core rule book anyway, since my (first printing) version is getting a bit battered.

However, I wonder if the adventure path market could ever get saturated. The current adventure paths probably have enough gaming material in them to keep me gaming for the next forty years (it would take us about 2 years to get through one, and we'd probably want to run something different in between adventure paths). Since I am currently forty years old that should be plenty :)

I keep buying them because I enjoy reading them. I don't know what proportion of subscribers are in the same position.

I can see a day coming (hopefully not any time soon) when adventure paths are no longer popular enough to be economical - at which point releasing Pathfinder 2.0 would presumably be very tempting for Paizo.


amethal wrote:

Personally, I don't see the need for Pathfinder 2.0

I'd happily buy a new core rule book which kept the existing rules but organised them better. I fact, I may need to buy a new core rule book anyway, since my (first printing) version is getting a bit battered.

However, I wonder if the adventure path market could ever get saturated. The current adventure paths probably have enough gaming material in them to keep me gaming for the next forty years (it would take us about 2 years to get through one, and we'd probably want to run something different in between adventure paths). Since I am currently forty years old that should be plenty :)

I keep buying them because I enjoy reading them. I don't know what proportion of subscribers are in the same position.

I can see a day coming (hopefully not any time soon) when adventure paths are no longer popular enough to be economical - at which point releasing Pathfinder 2.0 would presumably be very tempting for Paizo.

I don't see that happening. There are always new players, who don't have all the old APs. There is always more hype around the new ones, so even old players get excited about the latest AP. Old APs don't stay in print, so more recent APs will always be more available.


thejeff wrote:
amethal wrote:

Personally, I don't see the need for Pathfinder 2.0

I'd happily buy a new core rule book which kept the existing rules but organised them better. I fact, I may need to buy a new core rule book anyway, since my (first printing) version is getting a bit battered.

However, I wonder if the adventure path market could ever get saturated. The current adventure paths probably have enough gaming material in them to keep me gaming for the next forty years (it would take us about 2 years to get through one, and we'd probably want to run something different in between adventure paths). Since I am currently forty years old that should be plenty :)

I keep buying them because I enjoy reading them. I don't know what proportion of subscribers are in the same position.

I can see a day coming (hopefully not any time soon) when adventure paths are no longer popular enough to be economical - at which point releasing Pathfinder 2.0 would presumably be very tempting for Paizo.

I don't see that happening. There are always new players, who don't have all the old APs. There is always more hype around the new ones, so even old players get excited about the latest AP. Old APs don't stay in print, so more recent APs will always be more available.

The APs also have quite distinctive themes which will appeal to different groups - dungeon crawls, gothic horror, oriental adventures, jungle trek, pirates, kingdom building, dark fairytale, etc.

I think having a wide selection of different types of adventures available is a good way to entice new customers as an AP focused on someone's favorite theme can spark enthusiasm.

Sovereign Court

amethal wrote:

Personally, I don't see the need for Pathfinder 2.0

I'd happily buy a new core rule book which kept the existing rules but organised them better. I fact, I may need to buy a new core rule book anyway, since my (first printing) version is getting a bit battered.

However, I wonder if the adventure path market could ever get saturated. The current adventure paths probably have enough gaming material in them to keep me gaming for the next forty years (it would take us about 2 years to get through one, and we'd probably want to run something different in between adventure paths). Since I am currently forty years old that should be plenty :)

I keep buying them because I enjoy reading them. I don't know what proportion of subscribers are in the same position.

I can see a day coming (hopefully not any time soon) when adventure paths are no longer popular enough to be economical - at which point releasing Pathfinder 2.0 would presumably be very tempting for Paizo.

Anecdotally, we are legion.


Apologies for necroing a thread, but I figured it beat making a new one.

Just wanted to say, yeah, it'd be awesome to see reprints of OOP material. Started digging for answers regarding the likelihood of such as I recently started hunting Magnimar: City of Monuments. And of course there are a lot of earlier AP entries I'd love to get hold of--Crimson Throne and Kingmaker's early parts, the first of Council of Thieves, etc. I'm glad the PDF option's there, but I'm ttly a print kind of guy, heh.

So, yeah. Would love to see reprints of the individual volumes, AP's especially. Is there any chance, here a couple years later, or is it still looking like a no-go?

Just became an AP subscriber today, so here's one case where the interest runs both to the future and the past. I guess I mean to say: Please be quiet and take my money. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tsukiyomi wrote:
I certainly hope people wouldn't cancel their subscriptions and wait 10+ years for something they could get right now. However your probably right people would find odd ways of justifying it, and Paizo does need to pay its bills. I just really wish they had a print based solution to the OOP content. Heck I'd pay extra for the copies just to have them. :/ I guess I should just invest in a tablet and give up on books lol.

If you really want print copies that bad... buy the PDFs and print them out at Staples. Or get a color laser priner that does double sided prints. which you buy for about 300bucks new or a lot less on craigslist and ebay. I've got bound copies of both Pathfinder Alpha and Beta sitting on my shelf thanks to Staples.

And printing out one copy for yourself, of a PDF you own is okay.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Only a little has changed. We can print Flip-Mats in small enough quantities that it has made it worthwhile to bring back a handful of out-of-print products in our Flip-Mat Classics line, but the break-evens on reprinting books is still to high, and the quality of print-on-demand is still not quite there (paper quality has improved significantly over the last few years, but image quality still leaves a lot to be desired, especially with full-color interiors, which is all we do).


If anyone is interested, it's still possible to get everything 5e. Of course, being a newer system, makes sense it's all available.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm currently running RotRL with a slew of undead. You can switch up the monsters, the Fluff, Descriptions and whatnot with a bit of work. I have run the ancient Jerimond's Orb a total of 5 times with some of the same players. I quit after someone said it was vaguely familiar. I switched them to zombies for the kids one 4th of July, very rules light.

Perhaps the Golem will host a contest to update some of the old stuff as a cheap way to update pdf files for download. Some of the critters from the later Bestiaries would be worthy of appearing in some of the early APs.


The people here have done so much work and effort into keeping the older stuff supported.

I would love to see Wayfinder take something older....Like Darkmoon Vale and do fan content to like 10th level with a goal to turn it into a Fan AP. Or Wayfinder tackle a from scratch AP!


I wholeheartedly agree that updated compilations of the D&D Pathfinder books would be amazing! Legacy of Fire would probably be almost a 100% purchase point with Golarion fans.


Also, KenderKin, I have already done a homebrew that takes the Darkmoon Vale adventures and makes them an AP that, with additional content, goes to 16th level. I won't spoil too much, but those mountains hold many secrets. If you want some ideas, feel free to message me.

One question, however: what is this Wayfinder that people speak of? Is it some sort of e-zine?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Winter_Born wrote:

Totally understand the reaso for not reprinting. Hell, I want Paizo to flourish, and that means making the right decisions for business.

That said, I'd still love for the remaining 3.5 APs to be collected and brought into the Pathfinder line. Yes, conversions can be done, but I'd still love to see how the staff would improve them ala RotRL.

Not all those APs are well loved or well received. Second Darkness has some serious mid-AP issues, and leaves one wonder, why wouldn't I want to let the drow drop a rock on the elves, those guys are dicks. (seriously we are still super unsympathetic to the elves ever since that AP, and I thought it was just us but the novel, Queen of Thorns, pretty much confirmed it, elves are dicks.)

Besides the cartographers drew all the elven architecture as sweeping curves, you draw that on a grid! We ended up fudging a hex based system for a while because it saved so much time.

Okay.... apparently I'm still mad at that AP... To be fair there were some awesome parts as well, but I can see how it won't necessarily sell well enough to justify reprinting it.


Ejrik the Norseman wrote:


One question, however: what is this Wayfinder that people speak of? Is it some sort of e-zine?

Yes it is a fanzine, that has many issues! And you can get it here on paizo and download the free thing into your account.

Also one issue has traits (and more) for a Darkmoon Vale AP

here are the traits
Link

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Bwang wrote:

I'm currently running RotRL with a slew of undead. You can switch up the monsters, the Fluff, Descriptions and whatnot with a bit of work. I have run the ancient Jerimond's Orb a total of 5 times with some of the same players. I quit after someone said it was vaguely familiar. I switched them to zombies for the kids one 4th of July, very rules light.

Perhaps the Golem will host a contest to update some of the old stuff as a cheap way to update pdf files for download. Some of the critters from the later Bestiaries would be worthy of appearing in some of the early APs.

Contests may sound like an easy and cheap solution, but in fact they can be more complicated than simply doing the job ourselves. We want everything we publish and produce to be up to as high a standard as possible, and that means that anything we get in as the result of a contest would have to be developed and edited and laid out with the same amount of resources as if we'd just done that work in-house from the start. Of course.... since it'd be a contest, we'd have to add into that reviewing hundreds of entries, which would take a LOT of time on top of that.

So alas, a contest isn't a viable solution to the situation. Our preferred solution is to keep copies of older content always available as PDFs, and to update some content now and then as makes sense for current projects, be it a full-on revisit like we did with Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Races, or Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, or a significant expansion like we did with the Magnimar book.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I love Anniversary Editions!

...and I'm grumpy smurf!


What if wayfinder included a throw-back section (or at least one article) in the new issues that come out?

With Fan added content for older APs?

I know they like to remain current but I think there is an opportunity for fan material that has been professionally produced with art & maps.....

I would not mind seeing something new for older APs......

Sovereign Court

Galnörag wrote:
Winter_Born wrote:

Totally understand the reaso for not reprinting. Hell, I want Paizo to flourish, and that means making the right decisions for business.

That said, I'd still love for the remaining 3.5 APs to be collected and brought into the Pathfinder line. Yes, conversions can be done, but I'd still love to see how the staff would improve them ala RotRL.

Not all those APs are well loved or well received. Second Darkness has some serious mid-AP issues, and leaves one wonder, why wouldn't I want to let the drow drop a rock on the elves, those guys are dicks. (seriously we are still super unsympathetic to the elves ever since that AP, and I thought it was just us but the novel, Queen of Thorns, pretty much confirmed it, elves are dicks.)

Besides the cartographers drew all the elven architecture as sweeping curves, you draw that on a grid! We ended up fudging a hex based system for a while because it saved so much time.

Okay.... apparently I'm still mad at that AP... To be fair there were some awesome parts as well, but I can see how it won't necessarily sell well enough to justify reprinting it.

I've got to agree, I wish that Golarion elves were likeable.

Sure, there are decent and/or charismatic individuals but their society, taken as a whole, seems pretty unpleasant.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

When you have hundreds of years to perfect your craft or profession, you become a bit of an elitist in comparison to other "lower races" which basically live short lives that are akin to "dog years" to you...

So some elves might like dogs and some other elves might not. It's a matter of perspective and preference... ;)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:

What if wayfinder included a throw-back section (or at least one article) in the new issues that come out?

With Fan added content for older APs?

That is a brilliant and smurfing idea! (I would then pickup Wayfinder for sure... ;) )

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