Goblin Squad Member
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Hi everyone, i have been on this forum quiet a while now, mostly reading and seldomly posting anything.
What i noticed from the sideline of a lot of discussions is that there is lack of nonsense about what some where often used words actually mean.
And because there is no one true definition a lot of people use `there own definitions'.
IMHO this has lead to a lot of unnecessary conflicts, frustration and anger.
so, i was thinking if there is a way to get these misunderstandings out of the way to allow for less emotional and more goal oriented discussions.
i think we should try to put together community definitions of the most controversial words, starting with:
Griefing
Assessment:
The problem with the word Griefing, IMHO is at least twofold.
1. there is a wide range of what 'individuals' perceive as griefing.
To some it begins when there character is killed, once.
to others nothing short of account hacking qualifies as griefing. ->This, i think, is one of the main reasons why discussions about griefing tend to get heated.
2. i think there is a lot of mix up between, 'grieving' the term to be defined here and 'actions that make cause someone grief'.
a lot of people, mainly of the evil-RP-crowd have expresst there concern that the second will be labeled 'griefing', thus rendering the kind of game they’d like to play impossible(f.e. murder, theft,banditry).
i too, don’t think these actions should be labeled 'grieving'. at least not per se. It will be another thing if it keeps being repeated. But the same goes for endless bounties in my book.
That is something that gw has to decide upon. if you kill me 5 times in a row, i`ll report it and you get punished, zhen gw thinks what you did was griefing. If not, then not.
To me 1. is 'an action or series of actions done with the intend to cause distress in others'
That would be my definition for now.
i know that intend is something that can never be proven unless the Griefer admits to it (by boosting in chat f.e.)
on the other hand, as gw will decide what they will see as griefing and what not, the point how they’ll decide that isn’t our problem.
What we should define is what we as a community think is unacceptable behavior worth punishing.
-OK, have to get back to work for now
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so far thanks for reading this text-wall and looking forward to working this out with you all :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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These are the only specifics I've seen from the Devs on greifing
First, there's no hard & fast definition of "griefing" that will satisfy everyone. For some, any limit to their activities is too restrictive, and to others, any non-consensual interaction is too permissive....
That is not to say that unlimited poor behavior will be tolerated.
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The intention is to create an "anything goes" world where players aren't subjected to endless scams, ganks, and immersion breaking behavior.
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But the meta-rule will be: "If you're acting like a jerk, we'll feel free to give you a time-out lasting from minutes to forever without appeal and without warning."
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Players should also be free from metagame harassment of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political or religious affiliation, favorite college football team, or participation in other MMOs. Taking someone's off-line world into our on-line world will be totally unacceptable and we'll have a very low tolerance for those who break those rules.
From all that I gather that overall (aside from direct meta-game harassment) that negative things like murder, theft, scams etc that are done repeatedly and with the intent of negatively effecting a player or group of players is what is considered greifing. IE randomly killing people over and over, or killing the same person over and over, or randomly stealing from all the new players or continuously stealing from one specific person, all in the name of making the game not enjoyable for those targeted.
If you kill someone because you are going to rob them and they refuse to pay that is RP not griefing. If they refuse to pay, you kill them, hunt them down and keep killing them over and over that is greifing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for posting the dev blog, i didn`t think of that.
... done repeatedly and with the intent of negatively effecting a player or group of players is what is considered greifing.
that's what i gathered too.
but as seen on the threaty of rovagug threat, that is obviously not everyones view.Hence this threat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As already referred to:
Griefing is the repeated and intentional interfering with or spoiling another person's or group's enjoyment in a game.
The key words here are "repeated" and "intentional".
Ganking - The term ganking refers to the use of superior numbers or force against an opponent for the purpose of changing the risk vs. reward exchange to a more favorable ratio.
Ganking and Griefing are not the same thing, yet they are often lumped into the same category of negative play styles. While there are rules against griefing, it is much more difficult to place rules against ganking because it is typically used on an event by event basis.
Ganking by its nature is always intentional, and likely planned. Few if any seek to have a fair fight in combat.
Anti - Griefing is a term used by those who agree that they will work against the practice of others who them deem have griefed another player. It could minimally be a pledge of one that they would not grief themselves.
"A Slippery Slope" is an expression used to describe a circumstance when a stated goal deviates and results in unstated goals or consequences. There is also the perception that once one begins to slide down that slope, it is difficult to climb back out of it.
Note: These are the definitions that I work with, they are my own and govern my actions, decisions and opinions. You are free to disagree, or point out what a dictionary says, but that won't alter my understanding or use of the terms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Griefing is doing something that causes another player grief.
For some people this could be spamming chat, farming the same resources they want, stealing from them, killing them, etc.
However, in order for a game like PFO, or eve online or any game with open world pvp with death penalties to exist Griefing must also exist within the game. In order for one group to have fun i.e. Win another group has to suffer grief, i.e. Lose, since the "people" you are killing aren't mindless computer NPC's, they are real, living breathing human beings with feelings that do not enjoy losing, dieing, and haveing all there stuff stolen (something game companies don't seem to get)
In order to hide this fact many game companies come up with what I prefer to call "Punishable Griefing" which is the path PFO is going with (they really have no other choice)
To paraphrase Bluddwolf
Punishable Griefing is the repeated and intentional interfering with or spoiling another person's or group's enjoyment in a game.
The key words here are "repeated" and "intentional".
You can fold, spindle, mutilate, rob, kill, whatever once, maybe twice if you like it, as long as you have an excuse, but if you keep it up, you get the boot.
Now, to there credit GW seems to be going several steps further in that while griefing has to be part of the game and punishable griefing will not be tolerated, they are also making random, purposeless griefing carry some potentially hefty negative penalties to the point that while you certainly can walk around and gank a newb, you almost certainly won't want to unless he gives you a very very good reason.
All of which should make for some very interesting and meaningful player interaction, which is ultimately what GW is aiming for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also remember, what may be considered griefing under normal circumstances, would not apply in a time of war. Repeatedly or High Level or Skill killing Low level war targets are fair game.
What the Devs have said is that a bandit robbing may get a thief flag, but stealing in itself is not griefing. It will be interesting to see how the community sees an Assassin that takes a contract to kill a new toon, and is hired to continue to hunt that player down.
Who is the griefer? The assassin or the person pay for the contract?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, and i thouught this threat is dead.
So, first thanks for sharing your opinions.
Who is the griefer? The assassin or the person pay for the contract?
in that case?
i`d say both.The one who pays without a doubt cause, to make this short, he is being a jerk.
The assassin, if he keeps picking up that same contract over and over again, too.
In essence this is not very different from an unlimited bounty scenario.