Okay so I know that most of my posts make practically zero sense but I am going to try and focus here for a few minutes.
My wife and I play in a homebrew campaign with a really tough GM, at our LGS. It's pretty adversarial and lethal, with the GM essentially doing his best to craft encounters and baddies to simply kill the party.
Most of the players (weekly game, usually about 7-9 people at the table) are pretty hardcore min/max'ers. There's little RP, little loot, and the XP system is kill-based, so if you aren't killing, you're not leveling. So, if you really really really like playing a healer or buffer, you're basically going to be stuck at the base level you started at for quite awhile, since party/RP XP is practically nil compared to what you get for soloing or halving kills.
In the last session, my alchemist (lvl 5) and my wife's Oracle (lvl 6) were instrumental in taking down one of the BBEGs, one of a group of baddies that are all shards of some bigger demonic superbad-thing.
Both our characters died in the process.
So...we want our new characters to be BBEG-killers, preferably with some synergy, who are designed to fight a single big-bad and bring the pain.
The BBEGs are generally evil outsiders, demonic, devils, etc. They usually use some sort of concealment around them (fog, clouds, etc) and they usually have some sort of Acid cloud around them that inflicts damage to melee, as well as acid blood that does damage on successful melee hits. Multiple natural attacks, frequent will saves to the party and very high HP usually round them out.
Characters are built starting at level 4. No Gunslingers, Ninja or Samurai. 20-point buy. 150gp to start with. Assume the character will almost certainly be dead by level 6 or 7, so no high-level build progression.
I would love to hear suggestions to two good builds, for my wife and I, to make sure that if we're going to go down, we're taking the BBEGs with us.
TL;DR: Help me make two level 4 characters with 150gp worth of gear who shine against single BBEG encounters.
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Alright Nicos...
Help me Paizo Forums, you're my only hope,
Had a Vivisectionist, his damage was dope.
Wife played the Oracle, Greatsword in hand,
She kicked mucho tail in our gritty lil' band.
We both got straight up merc'd, big-bad laid it down,
We took him with us, swinging for the fences, making our GM frown.
His smile was wide, both of us negative health,
Two of the best wiped out as he congratulated himself.
Now we're out for vengeance, ready to make him cry for momma,
Looking for builds to so we can 'yes we can' like Obama.
It's on now like william dafoe as a boondock saint,
so help us now to metaphorically kick our GM in the taint.
Start 4 levels of Storm Druid then go Fighter. Specialize in reach weapons. Cast buff with enlarge person, and bull's strength, then cast fog cloud and attack enemies from 10 feet away to hit flat footed. You will have at least partial concealment vs your enemies as long as your are in the fog cloud, and you will not have any miss chance. You will want Combat Reflexes to get the most out of your reach and maybe Power Attack for extra damage. Stats should look like this. Play Human or Half-Elf.
STR 16+2+1
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8
As for the other class, play a Mounted Paladin. Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, and Spirited Charge are your first 3 feats. Again play Human. Paladins can heal themselves, so you don't have to worry about having a cleric, they have crazy saves, and are immune to a lot. Wear as heavy armor as you can afford (which won't be much sadly) and use a lance. Since many of your BBeGs are evil outsiders, your smite will deal x2 damage on your first hit. This means you are dealing 3x damage with your lance, plus 6x your level from smite. Stats should look like this. Play a Human for the extra skill rank and feat.
STR 16+2+1
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 14
Your charge will be dealing 3d8+18. With your smite evil you will be dealing 3d8+30 at level 4. Your first attack vs a smited evil outsider / undead / evil dragon will be deal 3d8+42
For both of these suggestions, the BBEG is frequently in Concealment, a large creature who is usually surrounded by a 30 foot cloud of...well, whatever the cloud is. Our GM usually likes Acid.
Ranged builds that don't have AoE like Fireball spells, etc. can't really hit the dang things, since they can't see it.
Melee builds have a hard time charging, since they can't see their target either.
I'm not saying any of this is good or fair or right, but it is what it is.
I've been thinking about the same thing, Nicos. Reading up on the class has given me a real feel for the 'save-or-die' aspects of their hexes and debuffs. My wife and I both have some ideas for utilizing it.
That being said, our GM has a fondness for, "You're camping at night, set up your watches while the others sleep. Oh, bam, third watch is ambushed."
Frequently, we've already lost initiative and have been will-saved, fireball'd, etc before we even know what's happening, and the baddies are right on top of us as combat begins.
So...TL;DR, the fragile nature of the Witch concerns me, in terms of getting omgwtfbbq'd by an ambush spell or first strike, before I can even do anything.
Nicos, you mean Scarred Witch Doctor? Doesn't that one have the racial requirement of being a whole-blooded Orc?
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A paired set of Dervish Dancing Tiefling Bladebound Kensai. (good defense by 5, decent sustained dpr, high burst dpr, acid resist 5, very high initiative 7+, good all around saves)
At 11th level you both take improved critical and seize the moment.
or
tiefling twf ranger with butterfly sting + tiefling beserker using a scythe. Make sure you can share your favored enemy bonuses.
I'm gonna suggest this for the very reason that I dislike the class. A summoner (while soft) can cast 2nd level spells (haste and what-not), and should have a decently powerful eidelon.
Maybe both the Summoner and Eidelon pick up Lookout?
Other player could be Magus or Inquisitor of some explosive flavor.
Artanthos, yeah the butterfly-crit-fisher + x4 Hitter pairing is something I've been looking at. In terms of this big-bad, however, it doles out HP damage with each successful hit, plus the cloud itself does damage, plus it has displayed more than three hard-hitting natural primary attacks.
At level 4, that has meant a melee-character has one, maybe two rounds of threat before they either need to withdraw or get put down.
And while I appreciate the 11th level advice, it's just not feasible in this particular game. Characters rarely survive beyond level 6, it's just the way he runs the game.
It's on now like william dafoe as a boondock saint,
As you have invoked the sacred Saints, I am compelled to assist you.
Is this a PFS style game or are you able to use alternate source material published by Paizo that may not be PFS legal?
-TimD
TimD, there's not a real easy answer to that.
Absolutes: No Gunslinger, Ninja or Samurai. No firearms allowed for gear, no Eastern weapons or armor allowed.
Other than that, practically anything goes that is Paizo content from Core, APG, ARG, UE, UC, UM, Companions, Adventure Paths, etc.
I had a Vivisectionist Alchemist with the Accelerated Drinker trait from the Cheliax supplement as my previous character, so that should give you an idea of how random the builds can be.
PFS rules don't apply, since he allows things that aren't usable in PFS (like the Master Summoner and Vivisectionist) yet he outlaws things seemingly at random that I take as givens in PFS with my legal characters for such games.
I play in this game for the challenge and the way it pushes me to learn and tinker, whereas I play in my RotRL home campaign and in PFS for fun.
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And while I appreciate the 11th level advice, it's just not feasible in this particular game. Characters rarely survive beyond level 6, it's just the way he runs the game.
The 4th level appeal was dual 4d6 shocking grasps with an 18-20 crit range. Becomes dual 5d6 shocking grasps with a 15-20 crit range at 5th level.
Any magus build also works for crit fishing, having access to keen weapons at 5th.
Tiefling is nearly a given for resistance to both fire and acid.
I would post a suggestion for a pair of gnome blaster sorcerers but my experiance with this type of gm would suggest a sudden increase in spell resistances.
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Wow, not to start a argument, but I would never play with that GM.
Artanthos, yeah, I personally love the Magus. I also really enjoy the company of the other players in this game and currently two of them are playing Magi. I'd rather not bring one/two in and have my wife or I upstage them or show them up. Even if we didn't, we kind of both have "special flower" syndrome, where we'd rather play something different than what the others at the table are currently rocking.
That's a reason we've shied away from the Master Summoner, as well. A great player in the game utterly wrecked shop with one, and got so bored that he retired the character. Well, that and complaints from other players that he was hogging too many of the kills and too much of the action.
Current active player characters:
Dwarf Wizard/Zen Archer Monk
Dwarf Monk (no archetype)
Gnome Ranger
blackblade Magus
kensai Magus
Everyone else either died last session and is bringing in a new character, or only shows up sporadically anyway.
Nicos, you mean Scarred Witch Doctor? Doesn't that one have the racial requirement of being a whole-blooded Orc?
well, you do not say anything about race restriction in the Op, but i think you could take the archetype with a human and a trait or feat) adopted or something.
Nicos, yeah, he has allowed a whole-blooded orc barbarian before. The dwarves in the party hated him, and after a few sessions of the player in question just being a real disruptive element in the party, his character mercifully died horribly and ineffectually in combat. Haven't seen the player since.
I could bring in an Orc with that Archetype, I'm just not certain it'd be worth the heat from the party in-character (from what little RP exists at the table) or the crap the GM would throw at me for being a whole-blooded orc.
PC A
Race: Tiefling(Demon-Spawn) +2 Str +2 Char -2 Int, Shatter
Class: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Level: 4th
STR: 16
DEX: 13 (+1 @ 4th Level)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16
Feat
___________
01st Level: Fey Foundling
03rd Level: Armor of the Pit
05th Level: Power Attack
PC B
Race: Half-Orc
Class: 4 Rogue (Thug/Scout)/3 Inquisitor
Level: 7th
Domain: Torture
Deitie: Gorum
Align: CG
FavCla: Inquisitor
STR: 17 (+1 @ 4th)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 10
Feats:
__________________
1st Level: Intimidating Prowess
2nd Comba: Power Attack
3rd Level: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
4th Comba: Furious Focus
5th Level: Weapon Focus(Greatsword)
7th Level: Cornugon Smash
7th Teamw: Outflank
Just a question does the GM stick to any rules or does he just make up any monster you face to kill you and your mates?
I do not have a problem with hard GM styles but there have to be some rules. Like normal CR + X and no custom monsters...
Breiti
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.Alright Nicos...
Help me Paizo Forums, you're my only hope,
Had a Vivisectionist, his damage was dope.
Wife played the Oracle, Greatsword in hand,
She kicked mucho tail in our gritty lil' band.
We both got straight up merc'd, big-bad laid it down,
We took him with us, swinging for the fences, making our GM frown.
His smile was wide, both of us negative health,
Two of the best wiped out as he congratulated himself.
Now we're out for vengeance, ready to make him cry for momma,
Looking for builds to so we can 'yes we can' like Obama.
It's on now like william dafoe as a boondock saint,
so help us now to metaphorically kick our GM in the taint.
All I have to say is that I'm impressed with how quickly you came up with this.
Additionally, if you are trying to take down a solo enemy, witches are great. Scarred witch doctor may also be great, if you are worried about death. And who isn't, really?
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I know there a bit squishy but having 2 rogues in the party would be great if there both have the knife master and scout archetypes using the Distracting Attack Rogue Talent. That rogue talent will allow u to make the target flat footed for 1 full round to one ally of ur choosing being the other rogue. The other rogue will be able to SA and use that ability as well to grant u the SA. Doing this over and over will allow both of u every round to get a full attack SA in with out ever needing to position for flanking. Sadly though it will put u in striking distance of the BBEG. Also y is there no wizard casting a wind spell to disperse the cloud of death for the melee can get in there and do what they do best?
The tactic for both rogues would be 1 using the scout archetype uses charge to SA the target and apply bleed with Bleeding Attack. 2nd rogue does the same but instead of using bleed it uses Distracting Attack on the target for the 1s rogue. The 1st rogue does a full attack which ar all SA thx to rogue 2. Rogue 1's SA 1st SA would be Distracting Attack to get the other rogue full attack SAs and next SA should be Slow Reactions so the target can not perform AoO. The 2nd rogue does the same as the 1st. This will allow both rogues to perform full attack SA each round and if they need to run for there lives they can since they wont provoke and the target will be taking some bleed every round to compensate for missed attacks and when u or the target runs away.
I know you all are going to start throwing tomatoes for all my "Yes, but..." additions.
Psion, yes, but...currently my wife is having a blast playing a rogue in PFS, and my character before my Vivisectionist was a pure vanilla rogue, in this game. My first PF character ever, in fact. After going rogue than Vivisectionist, I have great love for the Sneak Attack mechanic and combat movement, but I'm a little rogue'd out.
Right now, here's some of the things we're leaning towards:
Her: A Lion Shaman Druid with Animal Companion and Summons
Me: A Druid with the Swamp domain.
Her: A Synthesist Summoner, maybe with a Paladin Dip.
Me: A Sacred Shield Paladin.
Her: An Oath of Vengeance Paladin
Me: An Oath of Loyalty Paladin
Her: Witch
Me: Witch (Warlock?)
Her: Synthesist Summoner
Me: Witch (Warrrrlock!)
Her: x4 melee hitter
Me: Butterfly-crit-fisher
Her: Mounted Fury Barbarian
Me: Quadruped Synthesist with Mount Evolution (Shut up!)
Witch + Void school Wizard?
It sounds like it could be very helpful for the party if you could disperse fog. If the creatures use Acid Fog as the spell, it only takes a 31+ mph wind 1 round to disperse it. Gust of Wind gives you 1 round of about 50mph wind.
Witch + Void school Wizard?
It sounds like it could be very helpful for the party if you could disperse fog. If the creatures use Acid Fog as the spell, it only takes a 31+ mph wind 1 round to disperse it. Gust of Wind gives you 1 round of about 50mph wind.
Petty...that is nasty...
I assume you suggested Void because the Void Wizard's Reveal Weakness stacks nicely with the Witch's Will-save based hexes and save debuffs?And great call on Gust of Wind, lvl 2, so it's in our grasp at lvl 4 with a Druid, Sorcerer or Wizard build.
I'm a huge fan of some version of AM BARBARIAN on your list. :)
Dual Falchion-wielding Oath of Vengeance Paladins are something we've considered, certainly. Of course, we've also considered dual Master Summoners. Both of these are really just gigantic middle fingers to the GM...and we're fine with that.
I guess really, the reason I started this thread was looking for some more interesting ideas, such as Petty Alchemy's Void School Wizard and Witch combo.
As for the game, Victor, I hear you. I have another game under a great GM that we host at our house. I play PFS almost weekly with some good GMs there, too. This game, for me, is a challenge. It's competitive, ruthless and the margin for error is razor thin. I play in this game to win, not necessarily to have fun. To know that I out-thought and/or out-played whatever the GM could throw at me, or to learn from my mistakes.
It's teaching me both to be a better player as well as to appreciate what I have in my other gaming groups.
Also, as an aspiring GM, it is teaching me a lot about what NOT to do.
Riding a Synthesist Summoner. Take the Ferocious Mount rage power.
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I'm a huge fan of some version of AM BARBARIAN on your list. :)
I tried to convince AM BARBARIAN to play in this game, but he just hit me with his lance that he wields like a club (all Primary full BAB attacks with a charge bonus), then rode off on the backs of six horses.
Man, his sunglasses were AWESOME, though.
How about playing a gnome named One Trick, riding a war pony.
Heavens Oracle 2 / Sorcerer 2 (Arcana bloodline)
Feats - Spell Focus (color spray), Greater Spell Focus (color spray)
Traits - Magical Knack (sorcerer), Reactionary
Revelation - Awesome Display
Equipment - Headband of alluring charisma +2
Start with 18 charisma pre-racial.
Take Heighten Spell as your next feat when you level.
I have a pair of monks that synergized well together. They were also werewolves and lvl 5, but I'll post the sheets, maybe they'll be of some inspirational value (since you'll know what to adjust for your campaign).
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=37780 Improved Ki Throw is fun.
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=37778 Vicious Stomp is mean.
The party already has a couple of monks though, so YMMV. On the other hand, the more vicious stomps, the better.
Current characters: Wizard/Monk, Monk, Ranger, Magus, Magus, Alchemist (deceased), Oracle (deceased)
I'm rather surprised that, in the game you describe, that there aren't more characters with d10 hit dice or full BAB! My first instinct in this situation is to scream, "Paladin!" Although I understand why you want to mix that up a bit.
STR 18, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
1 - Fey Foundling, Power Attack
3 - Weapon Focus(greatsword or lucerne hammer)
5 - Furious Focus
Human Cleric of Shelyn
STR 14, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 16
Deity: Shelyn
Domains: Defense & Love
Weapon: Glaive
1 - Fey Foundling, Extra Channel
3 - Weapon Focus(Glaive)
5 - Quick Channel
Two melee-capable, reach-wielding, super-healing, lawful-good, badasses. They both head into melee, and with the combination of swift Lay on Hands, swift Channel Energy, and Fey Foundling, they should be free to attack their hearts out while mitigating damage taken very efficiently.
Suprised nobody has mentioned using a pair of Crane Stylists martial artist/fighters. Good saves, awesome physical defenses and great synergy.
==Aelryinth
Right now, here's some of the things we're leaning towards:Her: A Lion Shaman Druid with Animal Companion and Summons
Me: A Druid with the Swamp domain.
I hear that saurian shaman is better for optimization. The list of potential summons and wildshapes is generally better, especially since it also includes all reptiles in general, so you are basically also encompassing serpent shaman. Plus, the totemic transformation includes an option of +2 Natural armor if you have used up your wild shapes but do not feel like using the 3 natural attacks option.
Summoner/Paladin combination.
Lookout teamwork feats. Paladin with the mercy to remove fatigue with LoH (therefore no need to sleep unless you need to regain spells). Resilient Eidolon feat so if your summoner is knocked unconsious it will remain.
I'm rather surprised that, in the game you describe, that there aren't more characters with d10 hit dice or full BAB! My first instinct in this situation is to scream, "Paladin!" Although I understand why you want to mix that up a bit.
Blueluck: Yeah, Paladin was my first thought, and right now, my wife and I are pretty settled on going either paladin/paladin, witch/witch, witch/wizard, witch/paladin or just master summoner/master summoner. :)
And as for high-hit-die, full-BAB characters in the party, there have been many, though there are problems with them. I would say, on average, there is usually about 1 to 2 deaths a session. Heck, maybe more. We rarely get through a combat session (and most sessions usually see 1 to 3 combats) without a loss.
The main problem, with the full BAB'ers, is that due to the low amount of magic items and treasure, they rarely have the ability to heal themselves, or up their AC into a range where they're quite safe in the full mix of combat.
That, combined with the GM's slant toward not giving healers/buffers much of an XP-gain path, makes for most of the players trying to bring in builds that do max damage while also allowing for either an arms-length approach, or looking for some class abilities to heal themselves while fighting.
Also, right now, these 'shards' of the big-bad are melee murderers. They have Concealment, plus a cloud of acid that does immediate damage to a certain range around them, plus acid blood that does damage on successful melee strikes made against it. Add on high HP and at least three primary high-damage natural attacks...and well, you can imagine what happens to the average level 4 barbarian, fighter, post-charge cavalier, etc.
Try to get some acid resistance. Sorceror bloodlines get that, but for you , i recomend digging into the past of Paizo with the feat
Indigestible
Pre-req: Favored Enemy: Ooze, or survive being engulfed by an ooze
Benefit: Gain Resist Acid 5
Source: Dungeon Denizens Revisited.
For both of these suggestions, the BBEG is frequently in Concealment, a large creature who is usually surrounded by a 30 foot cloud of...well, whatever the cloud is. Our GM usually likes Acid.Ranged builds that don't have AoE like Fireball spells, etc. can't really hit the dang things, since they can't see it.
Melee builds have a hard time charging, since they can't see their target either.
I'm not saying any of this is good or fair or right, but it is what it is.
there are some elven archer feats for that to shoot through concealment, re roll etc. elven paladin archer maybe?
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Take an Assimar for Acid Resist 5 (and cold and electricity).
Going the Gust of Wind route with a Druid (with a big cat) and a Master Summoner (with Augment Summoning & Superior Summoning for something celestial to smite said evil outsider would be some good synergy.
Especially if you don't have your Eidolon up, you can 'swamp' the board with a lot of summons. Your pets will also have acid resist 5 if you add the celestial template to them. They will also get a smite evil 1/day.
If your GM changes things up, add the fiendish template instead.
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Actually come to think of it, if you want a 'melee' guy.
Assimar Paladin (with the Acid Resist 5)
1st - Fey Foundling (+2hp/magical healing die)
3rd - Greater Mercy (+1d6 healing of you don't need a mercy)
You take 5pts less acid damage from every source, so less acid from cloud, less acid from its attacks, less acid from your attacks on it.
When you do take damage, Lay on Hands as a free action for 3d6+6pts of magical healing.
Also, right now, these 'shards' of the big-bad are melee murderers. They have Concealment, plus a cloud of acid that does immediate damage to a certain range around them, plus acid blood that does damage on successful melee strikes made against it. Add on high HP and at least three primary high-damage natural attacks...and well, you can imagine what happens to the average level 4 barbarian, fighter, post-charge cavalier, etc.
Earlier when you described the enemies you were fighting, I didn't realize they were plot-driven to be similar to one another. I thought you were just describing general tendencies of the GM. If they're "Shards of the big-bad" and therefore fated to share certain characteristics, then preparing for those characteristics seems like a much safer bet.
"The BBEGs are generally evil outsiders, demonic, devils, etc. They usually use some sort of concealment around them (fog, clouds, etc) and they usually have some sort of Acid cloud around them that inflicts damage to melee, as well as acid blood that does damage on successful melee hits. Multiple natural attacks, frequent will saves to the party and very high HP usually round them out."
You're up against:
Outsider(evil)
Concealment
Acid damage
Multiple natural attacks
Frequent will saves
Ways to mitigate or exploit:
Outsider(evil): Smite Evil, Alignment Channel, Favored Enemy
Concealment: Blight Fighting, Blightsight, Blindsense, Tremorsense
Acid damage: Acid Resistance (From race, class, or spell)
Multiple natural attacks: - DR, avoiding full round attacks
Frequent will saves: High will save, rerolls
there are some elven archer feats for that to shoot through concealment, re roll etc. elven paladin archer maybe?
For both of these suggestions, the BBEG is frequently in Concealment, a large creature who is usually surrounded by a 30 foot cloud of...well, whatever the cloud is. Our GM usually likes Acid.Ranged builds that don't have AoE like Fireball spells, etc. can't really hit the dang things, since they can't see it.
Melee builds have a hard time charging, since they can't see their target either.
I'm not saying any of this is good or fair or right, but it is what it is.
Same idea here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.htmlI'd play something traditional. Elven paladin archer with that feat. Huge saves, smite 2/day rocks hell, good armour and hitpoints. You'll hit and kill. And be sure to carry quivers with all sorts of arrows for DR.
You need all the feats you can get for going the Snap Shot routine...
The second player... level 4 is tough to get a haste for both of you. Hmm. Take another paladin :)
I won't look into Divine Hunter, it's meeeh. Get a mount that flies :)