Ranking Request


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka OgeXam

I was wondering that after the top 32 have been posted can those who did not make it in the top 32 request to find out what rank their item had?

If I understand the voting process all the items should now be ranked from 1 (best) to ???? (worst)

The top 32 items may not be numbers 1 through 32, since the process is a tool to help the judges not a replacement. It is possible that an items that ranked 500th could be in the top 32.

I think it would be great to see the rankings of the items in the top 32 (after voting to not cause bias)

Also for those who did not make it in the top 32 and they are willing to let everybody see their ranking if they post their item in a thread could their rankings be posted?

Liberty's Edge

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I think this would probably be a bad idea.

Because lets say your item was ranked #15 by the voting public, but it wasn't chosen by the judges for the top 32. This is a possible outcome. Probable? I don't know. I don't know how much weight the judges are going to give the public ranking if they otherwise don't think the item is superstar.

So you are ranked #15, not in the top 32, how would that make you feel?

You might not throw a hissy fit, but many might.

Or, what if one of the top 32 was ranked by the public #67. That means that 34 other items ranked higher (assuming the other top 32 were in the top 66) got passed over. There would be comparisons and arguments over which item really was better, and which should have made it into the top 32.

I just don't think this is a good idea.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8 aka Jiggy

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This way lies madness.


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Jacob Kellogg wrote:
This way lies madness.

And lots of nerd rage.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some talking bags just want to see the world burn.

Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Shadowborn wrote:
Jacob Kellogg wrote:
This way lies madness.
And lots of nerd rage.

Dogs and cats, living together...

Mass hysteria!

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

I think this would probably be a bad idea.

Because lets say your item was ranked #15 by the voting public, but it wasn't chosen by the judges for the top 32. This is a possible outcome. Probable? I don't know. I don't know how much weight the judges are going to give the public ranking if they otherwise don't think the item is superstar.
.

Hopefully the judges will only skip items ranked in the top 32 for very, very good reasons.

Thouands upon thousands of person-hours were put into ranking these items. Every top ranked item skipped is an indication that those hours were wasted.

Sovereign Court Star Voter Season 6

To be fair, however, it was always understood that the judges would be choosing the top 32, and we'd only be presenting the order of review.

Champion Voter Season 6

Short of public voting being weighted equal (50%) to the judge's voting impact like on some television entertainment shows.

Voting only provides a first look ranking from the Paizo tech posts.

Star Voter Season 6

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I said in the other thread on this, I would love to see a relative percentage of where you ranked. I doubt this system will be giving a solid number for every item. They will be in groups of closely rated items.

"This was in the top 10%" - roughly equivalent to the keep folder. It doesn't tell people that they were passed over for a lower fan ranked item, but gives them enough information to know they were in the running.
After that, go in sections of 10%. That way people can get an idea of how their item faired without arguing over the exact merits of something that may have barely beat them out.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka OgeXam

Being an engineer I love data.

To me data can only help me get better. Though I understand your point about how people may feel.

I like the suggestion of what percentile you land in. Maybe in 5% increments.

Since the total number is not known saying top 10% could be 50 items it could be 250 items. Though it gives you a rough idea of how your idea went over with the voting public.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9

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What is better use of the admins time: creating the code to show non-revenue generating statistics that are more likely to cause internet rage or develop Game Space? I choose Game Space, but would like a numbers blog giving the rough number of votes and numbers of voter tags awarded.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Giving a percentile based on an already generated list of rankings is about as trivial a task as developer could get.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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Your ranking is either "in the Top 32" or "not in the Top 32." Knowing your relative percentile rank doesn't make you a better designer or give you any feedback useful to making your submission better next year. Insisting that getting this information is a trivial amount of work for the tech team is irrelevant because you're asking them for information which is only useful for bragging rights.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6

Ha ha! Sean,I love it when you drop a no nonsense response to things.

Star Voter Season 6

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Your ranking is either "in the Top 32" or "not in the Top 32." Knowing your relative percentile rank doesn't make you a better designer or give you any feedback useful to making your submission better next year. Insisting that getting this information is a trivial amount of work for the tech team is irrelevant because you're asking them for information which is only useful for bragging rights.

Is it any different than when an item is put in the critique my item thread and the judges say it was in the keep pile?

People like bragging rights.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Your ranking is either "in the Top 32" or "not in the Top 32." Knowing your relative percentile rank doesn't make you a better designer or give you any feedback useful to making your submission better next year. Insisting that getting this information is a trivial amount of work for the tech team is irrelevant because you're asking them for information which is only useful for bragging rights.

Is it any different than when an item is put in the critique my item thread and the judges say it was in the keep pile?

People like bragging rights.

Yeah, but some some bragging rights are pure gasoline. I refer you to "my edition is better than yours" bragging rights as well as the "my roleplaying/rollplaying is better than your rollplaying/roleplaying" bragging rights.

Also, the GIFT.


Caineach wrote:

Is it any different than when an item is put in the critique my item thread and the judges say it was in the keep pile?

People like bragging rights.

Yes, there's a significant difference. A ranked number is just that. If the judges take the time to tell you why the item made the keep pile, and also why it didn't make it from the keep pile to the Top 32, you're getting information that can help you with a submission for next year. The ranking just tells you how many people's items were better/worse than yours, which tells you nothing objective on how to improve.

Sovereign Court

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Knowing your relative percentile rank doesn't [...] give you any feedback useful to making your submission better next year.

I disagree. It establishes a baseline. "This item I slaved over and think is wonderful, did other people like it" or "This item I slaved over and think is wonderful, did other people think it was utter crap?"

I'm not saying that you -must- release the data, or even that you -should-, given how many other cans of worms it would open up. But knowing how close my tastes run to the voting public's tastes would certainly help when and if I design an item next year. That much, at least, is useful feedback.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

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I've reached a point where I'm really rather fed up with seeing people ask for this sort of stuff. It escalates year after year. Did I make the Keep folder? Did I make the cull? Was I in the top 10%? As a competitor who ran the gauntlet of RPG Superstar and a two-time judge of the event, I personally feel people who ask for this sort of thing aren't cut out for the competition, or the freelancing responsibilities which hopefully follow for the winner.

Why?

Because I think these sort of requests stem from a deep well of insecurity and a lack of fortitude and confidence in those who request them. If you really need to know how many votes your submission got...or where it ranked compared to the entire field...or, you require a detailed critique of just your item and don't care about anyone else's because you think that's what you need to improve and make it through...all in order to reassure or motivate yourself for the next go-around...deep down, I think you lack the fortitude required of a Superstar designer and an industry freelancer.

Maybe I'm wrong? And I'm sorry to be so harsh by voicing that opinion, but I'll stand by it until someone who's asked for these kinds of things proves me wrong.

Before anyone flips out, go back and look through the history of RPG Superstar and examine how those who have gone on to make a name for themselves as a freelancer (for Paizo or anyone else) conducted themselves. Did they ask for this level of constant reassurance, motivation, and feedback? For the most part, I'd say no. Instead, they found their own bearings. They charted their own course. They conducted themselves with a sense of professionalism, inner fortitude, and resolve to carry through, despite whatever self-doubts might have assailed them or how much they would have loved to know where they placed and how close they came.

In many ways, I think it's an additional "test" as part of this competition. How much are you able to navigate these waters on your own vs. how much do you need a crutch to reassure yourself? Because I think that's what this kind of request boils down to. You're unable accept what Sean laid out above (i.e., you either made the Top 32 or you didn't) and you need something more than that to boost your self-esteem and give it another try. Or, you need it to justify to yourself the time and effort you put into the submission that got rejected (i.e., it was this close, therefore you can still feel good about yourself). The fact of the matter is, you should feel good about yourself regardless. You should learn from the process regardless. And you should honor the Top 32 far more than seeking self-assurance or self-aggrandizement in making the Keep folder or the Top 10%. If you're not Top 32, it doesn't matter. The only second-place prize is your participation, your education on game design, and your involvement in the Paizo/Pathfinder community and the industry as a whole.

But, as always, that's just my harsh two cents when a topic like this surfaces,
--Neil

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka Ezekiel Shanoax, the Stormchild

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Once the top 32 are announced, we all should take the time to focus on and applaud their accomplishment - and watch with great anticipation the later rounds, where the contest truly begins.

If you didn't make the top 32, take the mindset that you might've been #35 or #36, and apply your gumption to making damn sure you're in the top 32 next year. Because even if you're #289, you should apply again next year, and it'd be a damn shame if anyone stopped trying because their number was "too low" (which isn't even a thing, because simply submitting and being a participant in all of this is a worthy act).

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

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Matt Banach wrote:
...it'd be a damn shame if anyone stopped trying because their number was "too low" (which isn't even a thing, because simply submitting and being a participant in all of this is a worthy act).

Let me add to this, because I think Matt brings up an excellent point. I'd hate to see Paizo respond to requests for informing everyone of whether they made the Top 10% or how many votes their item got, because of two major reasons:

1) They might become so disheartened that they don't even try anymore and completely disengage from trying to expand their game design abilities, and...

2) They might not only stop trying for themselves, but they might stop actually supporting everyone else and the contest as a whole...disengaging from the public voting, the voting in the later rounds, and even the feedback/commentary that the Top 32 competitors will need.

As much as people think they're going to get something positive out of knowing where they ranked out of all the submissions (or even just in what percentile), there's actually just as much potential for harm to the contest itself and how much the community participates in it.

Dedicated Voter Season 6

To me, there is no difference if I'm #35 or #535. If I'm not in the top 32 then it wasn't good enough. What does it matter by how much it wasn't good enough?

If you feel you put a lot of time and effort into creating something and nothing came of it, well, welcome to a big part of freelancing.

Star Voter Season 6

I would simply suggest that you take your item and compare it to one of the top 32 it mostly closely resembles and see where it differs. Then ask yourself how you could have sharpened your entry.

Star Voter Season 6

Also, if you're really concerned about how good your item is, posting in one of the 'Critique My Item' threads which will pop up eventually. Sure you won't get your rank, but you will get feedback from other participants(likely including those who did make the top 32), which is far, far more valuable than simple a number ranking.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter Season 6

Neil Spicer wrote:
...The only second-place prize is your participation, your education on game design, and your involvement in the Paizo/Pathfinder community and the industry as a whole.

I think this (as the whole post is) is an interesting perspective on RPG Superstar. I think Neil you are providing some very good advice for would-be competitors: don't get too wrapped up in the process, focus on the end goal - becoming a freelancer for Paizo. There were some excellent podcasts from Paizocon a couple of years back on exactly this topic where Wes in particular spelled out what Paizo needed from freelancers and what they didn't.

In the scheme of things whether you came 37th or 737th makes zero difference to that end goal where as learning from the process is far more important (and anyone who has spent time voting has assuredly learned lots on design). However, for people looking for encouragement to get more involved in the community, the Critique my item thread should be the place to go rather than seeking out a ranking number. The Critique my Item thread this year should be spectacular considering how many people will have seen everyone's entries and been forced to consider them. Whether you're doing this process to become a freelancer or just want to see how you scored, I think that thread will be gold.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Locke1520

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Neil Spicer wrote:

The only second-place prize is your participation, your education on game design, and your involvement in the Paizo/Pathfinder community and the industry as a whole.

But, as always, that's just my harsh two cents when a topic like this surfaces,
--Neil

I think Neil's advice is worth a lot more than two cents.

Remember, first place is a freelance writing job. This isn't so much a contest as much as a very public job interview and several potential employers may be watching you right now. If you are able to conduct yourself professionally and demonstrate a willingness to learn and improve your design craft with time and effort you can turn that "second-place prize" into your very own first place prize even if you never make the Top 32.

Learn from the contest, the designers and other posters on the boards. Coach and cheer-lead when you can and others will help you along too. The greatest thing about RPSS is that it brings the community together to find new talent. Sometimes that new talent makes it to Superstar but success in the contest need not be defined by the winner's circle.

Take your ideas polish them up and submit them to Wayfinder, query Paizo or a 3PP and see if there are any small projects you can help with. If you work hard and deliver creative ideas professionally you can make your second place trophy what you want it to be.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka Ezekiel Shanoax, the Stormchild

Andrew Marlowe wrote:

This isn't so much a contest as much as a very public job interview and several potential employers may be watching you right now. If you are able to conduct yourself professionally and demonstrate a willingness to learn and improve your design craft with time and effort you can turn that "second-place prize" into your very own first place prize even if you never make the Top 32.

[snip]

Take your ideas polish them up and submit them to Wayfinder, query Paizo or a 3PP and see if there are any small projects you can help with. If you work hard and deliver creative ideas professionally you can make your second place trophy what you want it to be.

This is completely, marvelously true. You don't have to get anywhere close to the #1 spot to turn RPGSS into a door-opening experience.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

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It's important to be looking forward, not wondering how well you did but what will you do next.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9

Matt Banach wrote:
Andrew Marlowe wrote:

This isn't so much a contest as much as a very public job interview and several potential employers may be watching you right now. If you are able to conduct yourself professionally and demonstrate a willingness to learn and improve your design craft with time and effort you can turn that "second-place prize" into your very own first place prize even if you never make the Top 32.

[snip]

Take your ideas polish them up and submit them to Wayfinder, query Paizo or a 3PP and see if there are any small projects you can help with. If you work hard and deliver creative ideas professionally you can make your second place trophy what you want it to be.

This is completely, marvelously true. You don't have to get anywhere close to the #1 spot to turn RPGSS into a door-opening experience.

I have been enjoying the Faces of the Tarnished Souk. Pretty unique characters you two have been coming up with.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To some, RPG Superstar is a fun creative outlet while to others it is a serious job interview. I think it can, and should be both things depending on what you want out of it, but in the end, Paizo is looking for new talent - somebody who brings something new to the table.

I appreciate Neil's point because it is one I share. Do what you do with confidence and passion and if there is mutual interest, you will advance. No need to worry about anything else.

Liberty's Edge Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Andrew Marlowe wrote:

I think Neil's advice is worth a lot more than two cents.

Remember, first place is a freelance writing job. This isn't so much a contest as much as a very public job interview and several potential employers may be watching you right now. If you are able to conduct yourself professionally and demonstrate a willingness to learn and improve your design craft with time and effort you can turn that "second-place prize" into your very own first place prize even if you never make the Top 32.

This is an excellent point.

In addition, design jobs of any type are not about how close you were to landing the contract. They are about who got the job and who didn't. They are about giving the client/customer what they want, with "just enough" creative spin. Companies who receive bids from design firms don't normally provide an explanation why you didn't get the contract; you just get to see the magazine cover, ad copy, or television commercial at the same time everyone else does.

RPG Superstar, despite it dressing as a contest, isn't a contest. As Andrew said, it's a job interview. It's not about who was in any place other than the top 32 (and maybe as small as the top 4) and, in effect, get the contract.

Providing rankings is not productive for a ton of reasons and asking for it to happen is ultimately based on insecurity and the need to have an ego assuaged. It serves absolutely no useful purpose to Paizo, the community, or anyone who's serious about the job aspect of RPG Superstar.

Anyone who wants to see the voting results would be better served by posting their item for critique in the appropriate thread when it opens. It would also behoove them to seek out peer feedback. There has historically been at least one peer critique thread every year.

Reading the critique thread not only for your own item, but everyone else who requests feedback as well is also a constructive and relevant use of time.

I can understand the disappointment inherent in not making the Top 32. I haven't. To be painfully honest, last year I was somewhat discouraged by my previous failures and didn't enter. That was a failing on my part.

But I spent time re-reading critiques and item entries from all the previous years, re-familiarized myself with Sean's advice thread, and read pretty much every bit of RPG Superstar commentary I could. I do not believe any of that time was time wasted.

I do, however, believe pining for voting rankings is time wasted. First, it's not going to happen. Second, the ongoing commentary in the multiple threads requesting and complaining about it clearly and absolutely reinforce Paizo's (I refer to the collective, as I'm sure more than one person is involved in the decision) decision not to do so.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Gorbacz wrote:
... Also, the GIFT.

Note that you'll need to hand-edit the URL to get it to work; you'll see that the URL contains something like internet-f@@@wad-theory.

You'll just have to type the uck for the @@@ yourself :)

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Whereas I agree that knowing how the public ranked your item this year is not particularly relevant for day-to-day affairs on these boards, I want to stress that in prior years it was very helpful for me to hear what I did wrong with my item submissions - even when brutal: the critique has (hopefully) helped my submissions each year become stronger.

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