Dazing spell + damage over time


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Just to clarify before I start using this with my wiz how this works with damage over time.

The feat says "When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell."

It does not say it is limited to instantaneous spells only so it suggests damage over time would continue to stack dazing durations. Stacking effects seems to be supported by "If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell."

So with that said:

1.) Can I get a confirmation damage over times continues to daze...

2.) That the effects stack rather than reset the duration.

3.) That there is no saves for the effect beyond the initial save.

4.) That things without mind and things immune to stun are not immune to daze.


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1) Yes, it continues dazing.

2) No, they reset the duration--the daze from the metamagic stacks with the daze from the spell, but not with itself.

3) Each time they take damage, if the spell allows a save, they make it, and a save negates the Daze. If the spell does not, they get a Will save, as per the feat, to negate it.

4) Only things that are specifically immune to Daze are immune to Daze. As far as I am aware, nothing is, though Behemoth's I think they are called can remove Daze for free on their turn.

What spell are you thinking about using this on? I think the most common DoT spell I've seen it applied to is Ball Lightning.


I agree with all above, except I want to point out that dazing a foe again doesn't "reset" the duration so much as overlap it. Say you're using ball lightning, so each failed save makes them dazed for 4 rounds. You daze the guy on round 1. On round 2, he also fails his save. The initial daze has 3 rounds left, the new daze has 4 left. He's still just dazed (no benefit to dazing him again) and the two effects certainly do not "stack" for 7 rounds remaining. If on round 3, the foe makes his save he is now dazed for 2 rounds and 3 rounds from the previous failures, respectively, and is thus dazed for 3 more rounds.

What could be confusing is if an ally tries to remove daze from your target and he is under multiple overlapping duration daze effects. Depending on the wording of the ability used to cure the daze, it may wipe out all sources of daze, or only one instance of it, in which case a foe who's failed his save twice would still be dazed.


mplindustries wrote:


What spell are you thinking about using this on? I think the most common DoT spell I've seen it applied to is Ball Lightning.

So i have three dazing rods (a lessor, a medium, and a greater) so I have alot of slots I can use. I'm a Mystic theurge conjuration(teleportation) specialist/Cleric (luck/chaos domains) so I get a nice bump from Spell Synthesis on top of greater spell focus and greater spell penetration but not sure which to grab for Spell Perfection.

With spell perfection:
- My first thought was Prismatic Spray with Persistent. This is a major suck or save already but the daze (with a rod ) covers you in case they just take minor damage.
- Ball lightning is great, will be using that. Big complaint here with spell perfection is you can onyl pick one feat and the damage succccks.

Without spell perfection but still good with dazing:
- Acid arrow for the lower slots cause its reflex.
- Some of the AEs such as burning hands, fireball, cone of cold, etc.
- Boneshatter (this is already a nasty spell
- Any others you recommend?

StreamOfTheSky where is his in the RAW? I forsee my DM having questions on this.


Acid arrow isn't a reflex save, but it is great for daze over time as long as they don't have elemental resists of 10+.
Stone call is a low level reflex daze, although it runs into trouble vs high DRs.

Acid spray has no SR and enough damage to overpower acid resists.

Firesnake is fun for avoiding friendly fire or coiling around a target to further lock them down.
An inward facing firewall circle could work well when surrounded, especially if you've got a combat monster next to you to abuse them, barring fire resists of course.

Dazing doesn't specify HP damage, so seems like Cloudkill could be a great choice for it.


Magic Missile is great for Dazing spell, 5 targets making will saves or being dazed or target it at one enemy for 5 separate saves. It is also low enough level to make adding persistent to it a possibility. The save DC will be low but when they are making 10 of them and taking the lowest it is likely to stick.

Chain Lightning is one of the best AoE spells due to its huge range advantage over Fire Snake.

Flaming Sphere and Ball Lightning both create potential encounter ending effects but both also run into issues with Elemental Resistance.

Boiling Blood is a nice specific multi target multi round dazing effect. Having a Fortitude targetting spell is also a good idea for when you come across those enemy casters. Mass Pain Strike does something similar but at higher level.


Cult of Vorg wrote:

Acid arrow isn't a reflex save, but it is great for daze over time as long as they don't have elemental resists of 10+.

Stone call is a low level reflex daze, although it runs into trouble vs high DRs.

Stone Call also has no save.

Scarab Sages

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Just an FYI more than anything..

I built a fire specialist that specialized in daze for PFS play. It is the single most broken character I have ever played. The problem is that it is so broken its not even fun to play, especially for the GM. Nothing stands against it, they just stand there wishing they could do something. So just for the record, don't do it.

How you may ask?

Level 11
28 int (+9)
Sp Focus Transmutation
Gr Sp Focus Transmutation
Elem Focus Fire
Gr Elem Focus Fire
Heighten Spell
Persistent Spell

Mag Affinity : Firefall (Not fireBALL)

Rod of Dazing Spell

Firefall has no SR, affects all targets in 60 ft hemisphere with reflex save, all in 100 feet with will save or blind. (set up with flaming armor spike, shape blast around friendlies as Fire Specialist.

So....DC29 will save (twice) or be blind plus a DC 29 reflex save (twice) or be dazed for 5 rounds.

Daze is broken. Should be banned.


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Just for the record, I don't think Dazing Spell is overpowered in any way.

I do, however, think that the various ways to avoid actually paying the cost of metamagic feats (Magical Lineage, Wayang Shadow Hunter, Spell Perfection, and all the Rods) are what is causing the problem and making these options overpowered.

The only Metamagic Rods I actually think should exist are Silent, Still, the ghost touch one, and the one that lets you change elements (since changing elements should be a zero level metamagic anyway, just like it was in 3rd edition). Those are all extremely situational metamagics that you sometimes need, and it's nice to have them available for utility without costing feats. They are not things you will use on every spell forever, like Dazing or Persistent or Rime, etc.

Scarab Sages

Sorry, my math was off. DC 29 doesn't hit until level 12 with stat book. In the first few levels you use flaming sphere (also have SF and GSF evocation). Combined with persistent spell its a bad day for most things for several rounds.(redirecting response back to original thread post).


Why not use grease with a flask of acid as additional component for dazing spell. When cast on the armor the target will be dealt 1 point of damage every turn for 1min/level and have to save vs. the daze every turn.
Or if you fight in some corridor you can cast it on the floor and all the enemies in melee will be affected every turn. And if they fail their save the are not only dazed but fall prone, too.


How would you feel about Battering Blast with Dazing Spell?

Negatives:
- Allows spell resistance
- Requires ranged touch attack

Positives:
+ As a 3rd level spell works with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Dazing, which only costs 14,000 gold. (As opposed to a 4-6th level spell, regular metamagic rod at 54,000 gold.)
+ 3 rounds of daze is enough to pretty much defeat an opponent. (As opposed to 1, which is hardly worth it.)
+ It's a force spell, so it effects just about any enemy.
+ It gives a reflex save, which is the weakest save many powerful monsters have.
+ Damage still happens if the save is made.
+ Gives the option of either multiple targets, or multiple saves for a single target.


Umbranus wrote:

Why not use grease with a flask of acid as additional component for dazing spell. When cast on the armor the target will be dealt 1 point of damage every turn for 1min/level and have to save vs. the daze every turn.

Or if you fight in some corridor you can cast it on the floor and all the enemies in melee will be affected every turn. And if they fail their save the are not only dazed but fall prone, too.

No, Grease with an acid component does nothing when cast on someone's armor.

It only damages targets in the area of the spell (i.e. if it's on the ground) or holding the greased object. Armor is not an area nor is it held.


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If you're interested in Dazing Spell and Blasting with DoTs, you might look into druid. Here's some stuff that sparked some discussion on it.

Blasting Druids, Blasting Druids Expanded.


Ambush... wrote:


So....DC29 will save (twice) or be blind plus a DC 29 reflex save (twice) or be dazed for 5 rounds.

ok thats just sick nastiness there. :)

So all great points here but the issue is elemental resists. if I pick fire then I'll get hit with all fire immune.

I was thinking about pellet blast. Reflex save, no SR, can bypass DR. AE but cone shaped to angling away from allies. Plenty of damage to get over DR (plus intensify option for 10d8) Best part is its not elemental, its just ballistic damage so.. no resist right? Downside?


Grayfeather wrote:


I was thinking about pellet blast. Reflex save, no SR, can bypass DR. AE but cone shaped to angling away from allies. Plenty of damage to get over DR (plus intensify option for 10d8) Best part is its not elemental, its just ballistic damage so.. no resist right? Downside?

This damage is subject to damage reduction. So if you don't provide the more expensive material component to by pass a given material DR that can slow you down a bit (generally not as much as an energy resistance, though, and certainly not as much as an energy immunity). Alignment based DR can't be bypassed at all by the spell nor can /slashing or /bludgeoning.

Damage is also sub-optimal for a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard attack spell (5-40, average 22.5 vs 10-60 average 35, though it becomes more competitive when intensified 10-80 ave 45 vs 15-80 ave 52.5).

If you are the type of sorcerer or wizard who stays in the middle or back of the group the cone shaped area of effect can mean less opportunities to cast it effectivly.

Still it is a viable spell, and can be a good choice, especially if you know that your GM is the type to start throwing fire immune/resistant creatures at you the instant you learn fireball (Or electricity immune/resistant creatures the minute you take lightning bolt, etc).

Scarab Sages

"So all great points here but the issue is elemental resists. if I pick fire then I'll get hit with all fire immune."

If resists are the issue, rare is the baddie with more than resist 10 fire and a failed reflex save with even 5 dice will net more than that. If they make the save, then it won't daze anyway.

If fire IMMUNITY is the issue, then heighten + persistent can be used on a great many spells to taste. The important thing is that they fail the save NOT the damage the spell does. Once dazed your fighters usually have 3+ rounds to swing for the bleachers to drop them. Generally speaking, any self respecting beat-stick in your party should be able to drop the baddie with 3 full rounds "batting practice".


cwslyclgh wrote:
Grayfeather wrote:


I was thinking about pellet blast. Reflex save, no SR, can bypass DR. AE but cone shaped to angling away from allies. Plenty of damage to get over DR (plus intensify option for 10d8) Best part is its not elemental, its just ballistic damage so.. no resist right? Downside?

This damage is subject to damage reduction. So if you don't provide the more expensive material component to by pass a given material DR that can slow you down a bit (generally not as much as an energy resistance, though, and certainly not as much as an energy immunity). Alignment based DR can't be bypassed at all by the spell nor can /slashing or /bludgeoning.

Damage is also sub-optimal for a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard attack spell (5-40, average 22.5 vs 10-60 average 35, though it becomes more competitive when intensified 10-80 ave 45 vs 15-80 ave 52.5).

If you are the type of sorcerer or wizard who stays in the middle or back of the group the cone shaped area of effect can mean less opportunities to cast it effectivly.

Still it is a viable spell, and can be a good choice, especially if you know that your GM is the type to start throwing fire immune/resistant creatures at you the instant you learn fireball (Or electricity immune/resistant creatures the minute you take lightning bolt, etc).

What do you suggest then?


I have no suggestions... you asked for "downsides" and I provided them, nothing more.

Scarab Sages

I like to have all of the elements handy just in case. One good one that might be supported with daze at lower levels (aside from flaming sphere) is Frigid Touch. Even if the will save vs Daze is made, the baddie is still staggered for 1 round (no save). Fantastic nerf for a full attacking baddie with lots of attacks (like a dragon). Totally OP for a 2nd level spell.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I agree with all above, except I want to point out that dazing a foe again doesn't "reset" the duration so much as overlap it. Say you're using ball lightning, so each failed save makes them dazed for 4 rounds. You daze the guy on round 1. On round 2, he also fails his save. The initial daze has 3 rounds left, the new daze has 4 left. He's still just dazed (no benefit to dazing him again) and the two effects certainly do not "stack" for 7 rounds remaining. If on round 3, the foe makes his save he is now dazed for 2 rounds and 3 rounds from the previous failures, respectively, and is thus dazed for 3 more rounds.

What could be confusing is if an ally tries to remove daze from your target and he is under multiple overlapping duration daze effects. Depending on the wording of the ability used to cure the daze, it may wipe out all sources of daze, or only one instance of it, in which case a foe who's failed his save twice would still be dazed.

Er... not quite. I'm pretty sure the intent of the rules would be more like: when a creature is affected by the same status multiple times, they don't overlap. The longer duration applies, and the shorter one is ignored; there cannot be multiple floating dazes on a single creature. If you use a 3-round daze on a creature that is currently affected by a 5-round daze, the 3-round one literally has no effect. Conversely, if affected by a 3 round daze first, then by a 5-round daze afterwards, he is still dazed, but he is now dazed for 5 rounds (the longer duration of the new effect takes precedence, and overwrites the old one).

Of course, if I'm wrong about that, I'd love to see a rule that implies your way is correct (because this type of discussion has come up in my games). My interpretation is based on the way condition "stacking" functions from other various abilities (such as a witch using Evil Eye against a target's AC twice).


Ambush... wrote:
I like to have all of the elements handy just in case. One good one that might be supported with daze at lower levels (aside from flaming sphere) is Frigid Touch. Even if the will save vs Daze is made, the baddie is still staggered for 1 round (no save). Fantastic nerf for a full attacking baddie with lots of attacks (like a dragon). Totally OP for a 2nd level spell.

Funny you mention that, I was just going to say "while frigid touch isnt DoT wow that makes a good daze combo". Its like a direct dmg spell that either suck no save, really sucks no save, or mega suck or save.

To Kazejin's point I think hes correct because I've seen modules where fear effect durations stack so even if you remove fear you have to do it per instance of fear. Even the wording of remove fear somewhat suggests this: "If the subject is under the influence of a fear effect when receiving the spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell."


What about aqueous orb? It is nonlethal dmg., but the spell doesn't specify it must be lethal.

Also, can a dazed creature hold its breath?


How well would burning disarm work with dazing spell? As written you may make a save. Is that enough for dazing spell to not give its will save?

And (now I get to the damage over time part) if a flame oracle with burning magic casts burning disarm is the additional damage dealt by the spell and triggers dazing spell?

Burning disarm:
his spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. A creature holding the item may attempt a Reflex save to drop it and take no damage (even if it is not their turn), otherwise the hot metal deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Circumstances that prevent the creature from dropping the item (such as a locked gauntlet) mean the creature gets no saving throw. The heat does not harm the item, and it does not get hot enough or last long enough to ignite flammable objects. The item cools to its previous temperature almost instantly. If cast underwater, burning disarm deals half damage and boils the surrounding water.

burning magic:
Burning Magic (Su): Whenever a creature fails a saving throw and takes fire damage from one of your spells, it catches on fire. This fire deals 1 point of fire damage per spell level at the beginning of the burning creature’s turn. The fire lasts for 1d4 rounds, but it can be extinguished as a move action if the creature succeeds at a Reflex save (using the spell’s DC). Dousing the creature with water as a standard action grants a +2 bonus on this save, while immersing the creature in water automatically extinguishes the fire. Spells that do not grant a save do not cause a creature to catch on fire.


Burning Disarm: if the creature made its reflex save and dropped the object with out taking damage, they would not be dazed. if the creature was denied a reflex save against the spell (because of a locking gauntlet or such) then they could make a will save to avoid the daze.

Burning Magic: I would say no, the extra damage would not trigger dazing spell in this case, as the creature is taking damage indirectly from being on fire, not taking damage directly from the spell again.


What happens if he decides not to make the ref save? It's an optional save. Is he dazed?


:::shrug::: I could see it ruled either way and be fine with it. but if it came up at the table while I was GM, yes he would be dazed if he chose not to make (ie autofail) his saving throw.

Technically nearly all saves are optional... you don't have to save against a fireball if you really don't want too for instance... and in such cases I would let the daze automatically take effect.


Just a warning: Burning Disarm does not work the way people think.

Note that the Save entry mentions "object." That means:

"The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater."

So, the way the spell works is, you cast it on the item, then the item gets a Reflex save to negate the effect of the spell entirely. Then the creature gets a save to drop the weapon.


I read a thread in which you pointed that out. But as others mentioned the see text part makes it not so clear if that was really the intended way to handle it.


Anyone know what spell would have the longest duration on damage for maximum dazing?


Grayfeather wrote:
To Kazejin's point I think hes correct because I've seen modules where fear effect durations stack so even if you remove fear you have to do it per instance of fear. Even the wording of remove fear somewhat suggests this: "If the subject is under the influence of a fear effect when receiving the spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell."

Hm. To be honest, I read that more as suggesting that any such fear effects are suppressed, because similar language is used for things that don't stack. However, I do see how that could be interpreted either way. I'll concede to that one.

@Grayfeather: Call Lightning Storm comes to mind. While it does require you to burn a standard action each time you trigger it, the target eats a 5-round daze each time they fail their reflex save against the lightning. And you can call down these bolts every round, as necessary. And the spell lingers for minutes/level, so you don't have to burn up the lightning bolts in consecutive turns (unless you want to). "Cool, he failed his save. Dazed for 5 rounds, and I'll wait until then before I strike him again."


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Grayfeather wrote:
Anyone know what spell would have the longest duration on damage for maximum dazing?

Boiling Blood. As long as you maintain concentration + 1 round/level.

You can keep someone daze-locked all day.


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Grayfeather wrote:
Anyone know what spell would have the longest duration on damage for maximum dazing?

Do you really need a maximum duration Daze? Isn't there a cap on how effective it really is? Once you go past 5 rounds or so of them being helpless (not the condition helpless, of course, but just standing there waiting for you to win), it's just overkill.

That said, Boiling Blood has a duration of Concentration (+1 round/level), so you can Daze someone as long as you feel like holding it. And you can get 1 target for every 3 Caster levels, so this otherwise terrible and useless spell can become somewhat useful.

Edit: Wow I got ninja'd. Great minds think alike, but then, idiots seldom differ...


mplindustries wrote:
...so this otherwise terrible and useless spell can become somewhat useful.

Provided, of course, that the creature fails its initial fort save (the statistically highest save), followed by a will save every round after taking the damage... and that's assuming the creature doesn't have that dime-a-dozen special quality called "fire resistance," in any amount, since it's only dealing a single damage point. I dunno, even Dazing Spell seems like it has a hard time keeping Boiling Blood from being nearly useless, haha. Though I guess you did say "somewhat," so nevermind my dry humor.


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About the DR:
Creatures do not get DR against magic attacks/spells.

The PRD states: "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."


Kazejin wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
...so this otherwise terrible and useless spell can become somewhat useful.
Provided, of course, that the creature fails its initial fort save (the statistically highest save), followed by a will save every round after taking the damage... and that's assuming the creature doesn't have that dime-a-dozen special quality called "fire resistance," in any amount, since it's only dealing a single damage point. I dunno, even Dazing Spell seems like it has a hard time keeping Boiling Blood from being nearly useless, haha. Though I guess you did say "somewhat," so nevermind my dry humor.

My thoughts as well. I initially thought a dazing burning gaze on my familiar might be nice for this (fort for half still means it some dmg lands and maybe catch out fire, double fail equals full dmg plus a dazed guy thats on fire but can't put it out). But even with a persistent dazing version (holy cow a 7th level slot??) the daze double save makes it a pretty weak option.

I still like acid arrow as its still decent dmg for the level (14d4 if the fight goes on that long) with not initial save if you hit. Seven attempts at will saves means dazing without concentration seems a tough hoop to jump through. Nice bonus is acid resistance is fairly uncommon and works well on intimate objects well (cough* I'm looking at you cold damage cough*). Seems to make an otherwise outdated spell a bit more useful.

What do you guys think about a dazing Call the Void. That seems like an awesome spell to put on your familiar while flanking. Its good dmg/round ratio, acts like a suffocation/silence, and fatigue besides the dazing. Thoughts?


Rickmeister wrote:

About the DR:

Creatures do not get DR against magic attacks/spells.

The PRD states: "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."

Are you talking about pellet blast here? The spell specifically states that DR applies to its damage. This is a case of the specific (spell description) overriding the general (DR section).


Rickmeister wrote:

About the DR:

Creatures do not get DR against magic attacks/spells.

The PRD states: "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."

Developer responses disagree. Look down a bit to the question that starts with "I cant help but notice that..."

That PRD quote you gave is one of the many examples of why using copypasta text from the 3.5 Player's Handbook was a bad idea for Paizo.


So back to the topic did anyone look at Call of Void? Anyone have other dmg/round spells they recommend?


Ambush... wrote:

Just an FYI more than anything..

Firefall has no SR, affects all targets in 60 ft hemisphere with reflex save, all in 100 feet with will save or blind. (set up with flaming armor spike, shape blast around friendlies as Fire Specialist.

Ambush, what do you use for your source of fire here? I considered flaming sphere but was hoping for something 1st level or higher if it doesn't require moving each round.


Grayfeather wrote:
Ambush... wrote:

Just an FYI more than anything..

Firefall has no SR, affects all targets in 60 ft hemisphere with reflex save, all in 100 feet with will save or blind. (set up with flaming armor spike, shape blast around friendlies as Fire Specialist.

Ambush, what do you use for your source of fire here? I considered flaming sphere but was hoping for something 1st level or higher if it doesn't require moving each round.

An ioun stone with a continual flame spell could be useful, as you can keep it around and don't have to cast the spell beforehand. being magic, it doesn't extinguish either.

But it depends on DM interpretation, whether "flame" and "fire" are interchangable in this circumstance. Firefall requires a "fire" and continual flame only ever refers to it as a "flame" and doesn't have the [fire] descriptor. While they are usually synonyms, a DM might say no and have rules support.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ilja wrote:
Grayfeather wrote:
Ambush... wrote:

Just an FYI more than anything..

Firefall has no SR, affects all targets in 60 ft hemisphere with reflex save, all in 100 feet with will save or blind. (set up with flaming armor spike, shape blast around friendlies as Fire Specialist.

Ambush, what do you use for your source of fire here? I considered flaming sphere but was hoping for something 1st level or higher if it doesn't require moving each round.

An ioun stone with a continual flame spell could be useful, as you can keep it around and don't have to cast the spell beforehand. being magic, it doesn't extinguish either.

But it depends on DM interpretation, whether "flame" and "fire" are interchangable in this circumstance. Firefall requires a "fire" and continual flame only ever refers to it as a "flame" and doesn't have the [fire] descriptor. While they are usually synonyms, a DM might say no and have rules support.

Continual flame isn't a fire, it is simply a source of light. The "flame" part is only a description of his aspect.

PRD wrote:

Continual Flame

School evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 50 gp)

Range touch

Target object touched

Effect magical, heatless flame

Duration permanent

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn't use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered and hidden but not smothered or quenched.

Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.

Ambush source for the fire was: "set up with flaming armor spike"


How would it work with black tentacles?

PRD wrote:

Black Tentacles

School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (octopus or squid tentacle)

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Area 20-ft.-radius spread

Duration 1 round/level (D)

Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: no

This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.

Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast. Creatures that enter the area of effect are also automatically attacked. The tentacles do not provoke attacks of opportunity. When determining the tentacles' CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size bonus. Roll only once for the entire spell effect each round and apply the result to all creatures in the area of effect.

If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.

The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the tentacles last.

So if a foe is grappled and takes the damage he needs to make a will save or become dazed for 4 rounds (seems simple enough), the next round since he is dazed, the foe doesn't get a chance to try to break the grapple, so he automatically takes the damage and has to will save or be dazed (with a failure simply adding more duration to the daze to a maximum of four rounds after the last failed save). This could potentially happen to every creature in the area of effect at the time of casting or that enters it during the spells duration.


cwslyclgh wrote:

How would it work with black tentacles?

So if a foe is grappled and takes the damage he needs to make a will save or become dazed for 4 rounds (seems simple enough),...

Yes but grappled on top of dazed doesnt give you anything. Also the CMB check vs something big like a golem or a giant is not very high %.

Really for dazing to be worth it its got to be AoE or multiround. Acidic spray is a big example of both. Something like ball of lightning is awesome but in an AoE is would be great. Like Cloudkill except does HP damage/rd would be nice.


I like Call Lightning. With Dazing Spell it's 6th level (11-12th level caster) so we're not talking about an "only on the last adventuring day of your life" spell level.

  • 3 rounds should be enough dazing to win a fight.
  • It gives a reflex save (generally the lowest).
  • It effects an area (sometimes useful)
  • By giving a dazing attack each round you can either get a bunch of chances to daze a single enemy or hit plenty of separate enemies. Rotate targets to keep them all dazed.

Of course, it's not an option for many Dazing Spell users.


Dazing Wall of Fire is great fror shutting down whole swathes of enemies who then stand there drooling while being bruned to a crisp. Even better if they are undead.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Continual flame isn't a fire, it is simply a source of light. The "flame" part is only a description of his aspect.

Having "flame" mentioned three times - both in name, effect and description - makes me think that there's a fair basis of calling it fire (as they're synonyms). It's mentioned more than hail is in ice storm, but if there was like a spell that required you to have hail on hand I think it'd be unfair to disallow using Ice Storm for that.

But as said, it doesn't specify fire, just flame, and although they are synonyms it is open for interpretation. Neither allowing nor disallowing are really house rules, just different interpretation.


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Grayfeather wrote:

Yes but grappled on top of dazed doesnt give you anything. Also the CMB check vs something big like a golem or a giant is not very high %.

Well it means that the creature is going to stay grappled and take the damage each round for a minimum of 4 rounds if it fails its initial will save... and like all spell combinations it is going to be situational... don't cast it on golems or giants then (although assuming that a rod is not used, the min caster level for a dazing black tentacles means that the tentacles CMB is +20, easily affecting hill giants, flesh, wood, and ice golems, and having a better than 50% chance of working on stone, fire and frost giants and clay golems.

If cast on a group of 6 Hill giants (a CR 13 encounter), each tentacle would need to roll above a 3 on d20 to successfully grapple a giant, inflicting 1d6+4 damage and requiring the giant to make a will save (with its whopping +3 to will saves) or be dazed for 4 rounds, each of those rounds it cannot attempt to escape from the grapple, so it automatically takes the 1d6+4 damage and must will save again or reset the daze to 4 rounds from that save...basically any hill giant from the group that is grappled (80% chance) and that fails its initial will save (chance will vary by caster, but likely at at least gonna happen 80% of the time) is very unlikely to ever get free taking the full 15d6+60 (112.5 average over the course of 15 rounds, enough to kill a hill giant)...


Ilja wrote:

Having "flame" mentioned three times - both in name, effect and description - makes me think that there's a fair basis of calling it fire (as they're synonyms). It's mentioned more than hail is in ice storm, but if there was like a spell that required you to have hail on hand I think it'd be unfair to disallow using Ice Storm for that.

But as said, it doesn't specify fire, just flame, and although they are synonyms it is open for interpretation. Neither allowing nor disallowing are really house rules, just different interpretation.

I think Diego's point had nothing to do with the language discrepancy between "fire" and "flame." I think what he was getting at is this: the spell does a good job of establishing that the "flame" isn't an actual flame, it just looks like one. By that interpretation, Firefall wouldn't work with it, regardless of whether or not the spell said "fire." It's a pretty safe interpretation, I think. I could see why someone might allow it, though.

Scarab Sages

"By that interpretation, Firefall wouldn't work with it, regardless of whether or not the spell said "fire." It's a pretty safe interpretation, I think. I could see why someone might allow it, though."

No matter. Just turn on the flaming armor spikes (on the mithril lamellar cuirass) and its all good. Its real fire. Last all day even underwater :).

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