Independence, USA

[Ringtail]

Glenn Beck read a copy of Atlas Shrugged and now facies trying his hand at becoming a cult leader.

[BigNorseWolf]

Meh. It worked for scientology, so why not.

[watchmanx]

yay a new cult leader...hmmmmm

[Scott Betts]

Wow, I thought it was the same story, but it turns out there are two crazy right-wing fortress-theme-park-towns being planned by wingnuts in the same week!

[Comrade Anklebiter]

Ringtail wrote:

Glenn Beck read a copy of Atlas Shrugged and now facies trying his hand at becoming a cult leader.

Vive le Gal...whattaya mean that's not what he means?

[Moro]

These proposed communities have great potential.

Imagine the awesomeness of the world if half of the wacko extremists suddenly decided to become hermits, and leave the rest of us alone?

Now if we could just get the extremists from the other end of the political spectrum to do the same thing...

[Freehold DM]

Isn't this old news? Didn't he try something like this before?

[thejeff]

I just find it amusing that all these pseudo-libertarian cult planned community projects a based around a level of central planning and control they'd rant against if it was imposed by a government.
Beck's is very vague, though the "send your kids for deprogramming" is scary.
The Citadel is more concrete and focuses heavily on paramilitary training, but I also noticed things like "Each neighborhood will have similar housing for visual uniformity and aesthetic appeal." If they want to keep that they'll need strict rules on additions, upkeep, lawn maintenance, etc.
I'm also amused by "agree to abide all Constitutional laws, both Federal and State". Who decides that? Do they have their own Constitutional scholars or are they going by gut feeling? Or like the rest of us, dealing with what the Supreme Court rules? In which case what's the point of emphasizing it?

[Terquem]

It's about time people in this dimension began planning communities around the idea of obeying the law, or more appropriately, forcing everyone else to obey the laws, you, on the other hand, can continue to drive 5 mph over the limit, change lanes without signaling, and roll through those stop signs when no one is looking.

[Freehold DM]

Terquem wrote:

It's about time people in this dimension began planning communities around the idea of obeying the law, or more appropriately, forcing everyone else to obey the laws, you, on the other hand, can continue to drive 5 mph over the limit, change lanes without signaling, and roll through those stop signs when no one is looking.

an interesting point.

[BigNorseWolf]

Moro wrote:

These proposed communities have great potential.

Imagine the awesomeness of the world if half of the wacko extremists suddenly decided to become hermits, and leave the rest of us alone?

Now if we could just get the extremists from the other end of the political spectrum to do the same thing...

Now lets be fair, assaulting someone's ears with a badly played drum circle is hardly the same as using assault weapons.

[Celestial Healer]

Beck's proposal sounds remarkably communist. I wonder how he would react to someone telling him so.

[Tirisfal]

Terquem wrote:

It's about time people in this dimension began planning communities around the idea of obeying the law, or more appropriately, forcing everyone else to obey the laws, you, on the other hand, can continue to drive 5 mph over the limit, change lanes without signaling, and roll through those stop signs when no one is looking.

Hey, get it right, I'm also texting :P

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Moro wrote:

These proposed communities have great potential.

Imagine the awesomeness of the world if half of the wacko extremists suddenly decided to become hermits, and leave the rest of us alone?

Now if we could just get the extremists from the other end of the political spectrum to do the same thing...

Now lets be fair, assaulting someone's ears with a badly played drum circle is hardly the same as using assault weapons.

I keep wondering where all these leftist extremists are. I mean, there's the Anklebiter, but other than that.

[Tirisfal]

Celestial Healer wrote:

Beck's proposal sounds remarkably communist. I wonder how he would react to someone telling him so.

I love both of these - they're hippie communes for the "I hate everyone 'cause 'MURCA" flavor of republican.

I hope they get treehouse forts!

Its so cute :)

[Celestial Healer]

Yep. A commune is a commune. They'll grow food, make their own goods...

I especially like the part where Beck says that corporate chains will not be allowed to do business there. There is a serious cognitive dissonance going on.

As long as gun ownership isn't a requirement, I could see hippies moving in and taking the place over without changing much of anything.

[LazarX]

I love this exchange between Jon Stewart and JOhn Hodgeman:

Text and video here

JON STEWART: That's already the case!! John, all these threats that you and your fellow CEOs have been making are really exactly what these CEOs have been doing for 30 years now. What's the difference?

JOHN HODGMAN: The difference? Well, we used to be motivated by simple profit. Now we're doing it out of spite. And as our final punishment to you, we are leaving, Jon. We are going Galt! Going Galt, Jon! Like in Atlas Shrugged. Here, here, here. (gives Jon a copy of the book) Read it. I'll wait.

JON STEWART: I'm familiar with Atlas Shrugged. I understand.

JOHN HODGMAN: You'll learn a lot.

JON STEWART: John Galt and other top industrialists abandon an ungrateful nation, form their own society in a secret valley in Colorado.

JOHN HODGMAN: Yes.

JON STEWART: So that's what you're doing?

JOHN HODGMAN: Oh, we've already done it, Jon. Technically, it's more like a secret condominium development in Sarasota. Open only to those virtuous enough to have made enormous amounts of money, or to have inherited a lot of money. But no Powerball winners, Jon! Just quality people.

JON STEWART: So... how is this community going?

JOHN HODGMAN: Great! It's going great! It's going great. What could be more invigorating than spending all day with older white guys and their third wives? In fact, I just came back to say goodbye.

JON STEWART: All right, well, goodbye.

JOHN HODGMAN: And! To give you one last chance. We could hold another election right now, get the right result.

JON STEWART: No, I think we're good. Take your book.

JOHN HODGMAN: OK, then, goodbye.

JON STEWART: All right, bye.

JOHN HODGMAN: Unless you wanted to bring back slavery, we could stick around?

JON STEWART: Nope! That's a non-starter, that's a non-starter, that's not happening. Goodbye.

JOHN HODGMAN: OK. Goodbye forever.

JON STEWART: All right, John.

JOHN HODGMAN: But... what.... I'm sorry, did I just hear you groveling an apology? Was that...?

JON STEWART: No, I said OK, you can go.

JOHN HODGMAN: Don't make me go, Jon!

JON STEWART: What?

JOHN HODGMAN: It's a nightmare over there! It's nothing but money managers and trust fund kids and Trumps! No one knows how to cook or clean or make... what's that thing that keeps you warm?

JON STEWART: Heat?

JOHN HODGMAN: Heat! Yes! Where does that come from? Oh, it's too many chiefs, Jon, not enough Indians, if you know what I mean. Or Mexicans. Oh! I miss the Mexicans! I miss them so much! Ahh!! I'm so sorry I have to leave!! (blows nose again) Do you have a clean $100 dollar bill?

[stormraven]

thejeff wrote:

Beck's is very vague, though the "send your kids for reprogramming" is scary.

Fixed.

[thejeff]

Along the same lines: Atlas Shrugged 2: One Hour Later

[thejeff]

stormraven wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Beck's is very vague, though the "send your kids for reprogramming" is scary.

Fixed.

Pretty much. Near as I can tell, there's no way to "deprogram" people. All you can do is program them differently.

Of course it's really the assumption behind it that's scary. If your kids disagree with you it's because they've been programmed by the evil conspiracy and you need to have them fixed. It's not because they're independent human beings with minds of their own who happen to think you're wrong. That's crazy talk!

[John Woodford]

thejeff wrote:

Along the same lines: Atlas Shrugged 2: One Hour Later

Reminds me of the brilliant Locus article about an AS sequel HERE. (If it seems strange to you, check the date.)

[meatrace]

What I find hilarious is the ongoing "celebrity feud" between Beck and Alex Jones, each accusing one another of being CIA plants and stuff.

I mean, there's only room for ONE conspiracy theorist megalomaniac 'round these parts, amirite?

[thejeff]

John Woodford wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Along the same lines: Atlas Shrugged 2: One Hour Later

Reminds me of the brilliant Locus article about an AS sequel HERE. (If it seems strange to you, check the date.)

But that ignores Rand's actual sequel to Atlas Shrugged, discussed here.

[thejeff]

meatrace wrote:

What I find hilarious is the ongoing "celebrity feud" between Beck and Alex Jones, each accusing one another of being CIA plants and stuff.

I mean, there's only room for ONE conspiracy theorist megalomaniac 'round these parts, amirite?

There's only so much "Buy Gold Now!!" advertising money to go round.

[Shadowborn]

Scott Betts wrote:

Wow, I thought it was the same story, but it turns out there are two crazy right-wing fortress-theme-park-towns being planned by wingnuts in the same week!

Too bad neither one of them is being built underwater.

[zylphryx]

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Ringtail wrote:

Glenn Beck read a copy of Atlas Shrugged and now facies trying his hand at becoming a cult leader.

Vive le Gal...whattaya mean that's not what he means?

But, but ... What if it is what he means??

Blue blood running in the streets ...

[Tirisfal]

zylphryx wrote:

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Ringtail wrote:

Glenn Beck read a copy of Atlas Shrugged and now facies trying his hand at becoming a cult leader.

Vive le Gal...whattaya mean that's not what he means?

But, but ... What if it is what he means??

Blue blood running in the streets ...

Will he have Grey Gardeners keeping the peace?

[Guy Humual]

I think this will be an excellent sociological experiment. Just think, a small slice of North Korea right in North America. Also Vegas should start taking bets on how long they'd last before total collapse. Personally I suspect that they'll start cheating and start importing energy, clothing, food, technology, media, and anything else they can within weeks of opening. People following Beck don't strike me as people capable of seeing irony or hypocrisy.

[Shadowborn]

Guy Humual wrote:

I think this will be an excellent sociological experiment. Just think, a small slice of North Korea right in North America. Also Vegas should start taking bets on how long they'd last before total collapse. Personally I suspect that they'll start cheating and start importing energy, clothing, food, technology, media, and anything else they can within weeks of opening. People following Beck don't strike me as people capable of seeing irony or hypocrisy.

Not to mention forward thinking, or recognizing cause and effect.

[thejeff]

Guy Humual wrote:

I think this will be an excellent sociological experiment. Just think, a small slice of North Korea right in North America. Also Vegas should start taking bets on how long they'd last before total collapse. Personally I suspect that they'll start cheating and start importing energy, clothing, food, technology, media, and anything else they can within weeks of opening. People following Beck don't strike me as people capable of seeing irony or hypocrisy.

The only question is how long can Beck keep it running and how much can he skim off the top.

They'll be cheating from the very beginning, rationalizing it as start up time. They'll never transition to self-sufficiency.

[Andrew R]

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

[Shadowborn]

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

[Andrew R]

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

[meatrace]

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

Tell me more about your Al Gore conspiracy theories!

[thejeff]

meatrace wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

Tell me more about your Al Gore conspiracy theories!

Please proceed.

[Celestial Healer]

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

How does sequestering oneself in a commune teach life skills?

Would they learn skills of some sort? Probably. Life skills? Unlikely.

No one is picking on retreating from materialism (that's what hippy communes are all about). People are chuckling at the retreat from capitalism, which is a dramatic turnaround for a right-wing pundit. Capitalism means they would have to open their community to competition among businesses, but instead they are expressly shutting free enterprise out of the picture. When liberals propose the same thing on the national scale, it gets condemned as "protectionism" or "socialism". Just saying.

[Irontruth]

thejeff wrote:

The Citadel is more concrete and focuses heavily on paramilitary training, but I also noticed things like "Each neighborhood will have similar housing for visual uniformity and aesthetic appeal." If they want to keep that they'll need strict rules on additions, upkeep, lawn maintenance, etc.

My favorite is the artist layout of the place. It's like a 10 y/o's fantasy vision and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding in building modern defensive structures.

It's about on par with me drawing the layout of my wizard's tower.

[thejeff]

Irontruth wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The Citadel is more concrete and focuses heavily on paramilitary training, but I also noticed things like "Each neighborhood will have similar housing for visual uniformity and aesthetic appeal." If they want to keep that they'll need strict rules on additions, upkeep, lawn maintenance, etc.

My favorite is the artist layout of the place. It's like a 10 y/o's fantasy vision and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding in building modern defensive structures.

It's about on par with me drawing the layout of my wizard's tower.

It doesn't even show understanding of medieval defensive structures.

I'm really not sure what they think they need a walled city for anyway. Roving bands of looters once the economic collapse happens?

Will they have the mines and other resources to supply the arms factory, which is apparently their only planned industry? How about the power plant? Water supply?

It all collapses in the only feasible situation in which they'd need the walls and paramilitary training.

[Terquem]

oh well, maybe it isn't to keep people out, you, know, you know.

[Guy Humual]

Terquem wrote:

oh well, maybe it isn't to keep people out, you, know, you know.

This is a much more likely scenario.

[Shadowborn]

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

Well, sure. There's no rule against making obscene profits while saving the planet.

[Tirisfal]

Irontruth wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The Citadel is more concrete and focuses heavily on paramilitary training, but I also noticed things like "Each neighborhood will have similar housing for visual uniformity and aesthetic appeal." If they want to keep that they'll need strict rules on additions, upkeep, lawn maintenance, etc.

My favorite is the artist layout of the place. It's like a 10 y/o's fantasy vision and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding in building modern defensive structures.

It's about on par with me drawing the layout of my wizard's tower.

When I was 8, I mspaint'd the plans for my grand city. It included my White House (the Red House), which had offices for my underlings, and secret passages, and I was protected in my oval office by mutants. I also made plans for a hospital, grocery store, marketplace, housing, helipad (for escape plans in case I got invaded), and other necessary things.

8 year old me even thought of including a flogging block in the town square.

I need to find the floppy disc I saved those plans to...

[Andrew R]

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

Well, sure. There's no rule against making obscene profits while saving the planet.

And burning massive quantities of fossil fuels to travel around the globe to talk and having a house that uses more electricity than most by far.....

[Elbe-el]

Man, it would be nice if these people could withdraw completely from society and leave the rest of us alone. Hell, I'd be satisfied with completely withdrawing myself from society, and leaving the rest of you alone. It's a pity that neither of us (nor any of you) have that option.

Get 20 acres of wooded land, build a small shack in the middle of it (with no external utilities at all) and live entirely off of what you can forage, and, have no contact whatsoever with any other human being ever again...sounds nice, doesn't it? It's only a shame that it is absolutely impossible in the United States, and there is absolutely no truthful iteration of the facts that allows for any human being living in the United States to legally do this.

Let's start with the 20 acres. I can't "own" it, since vast majority of the population is not allowed to own land (You have paid off your mortgage? You haven't owed the bank a single red cent in more than a decade? Don't pay your property taxes for a couple of years...see what happens to you. Regardless of the language you want to use, you pay someone else a periodic stipend of money for the privilege of using that land...that's RENT. If you "rent" something, you can't possibly "own"...the two are kind of mutually exclusive). Since I can't personally own the land, maybe I can live on some federal land...that's supposed to belong to everybody, right? Except for pages upon pages of federal law that prevent "squatting".

Then there's the issue of feeding myself. I'm not buying any food whatsoever (in this hypothetical example)...I don't need to. If I'm in the wild, all I have to do is reach out about a foot in any direction, and there's food. I can forage for everything I need, and enjoy a healthier diet than most of you...except now I owe income tax. If I pick acorns up off the ground, eat nothing else but grass and roadkill...that's "income", according to the IRS. According to the IRS, if I am alive, it is because I have procured and/or consumed something that they have a right to tax. (Don't believe me? Read the IRS tax code sometime, or even better, just do some research on Joe Louis.)

There's a word for this situation, when a human being is inescapably trapped in a working situation he has no choice about, surrounded by armed people who will impede (with lethal force) his every attempt to change his situation, or even remove himself from it...what is it called again, when working relationships are entirely coercive?

[Tirisfal]

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

Shadowborn wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

focusing on hard work and learning life skills instead of materialism, oh the horror

Yes, I'm sure that is Beck's primary motivation. He's the last guy in the world interested in profit...

maybe he is maybe not, then again folks like to believe Al Gore is just a honest man working to save the planet

Well, sure. There's no rule against making obscene profits while saving the planet.

And burning massive quantities of fossil fuels to travel around the globe to talk and having a house that uses more electricity than most by far.....

So he's a hypocrite like all the other politicians? Please, go on...

[thejeff]

Elbe-el wrote:

Man, it would be nice if these people could withdraw completely from society and leave the rest of us alone. Hell, I'd be satisfied with completely withdrawing myself from society, and leaving the rest of you alone. It's a pity that neither of us (nor any of you) have that option.

Get 20 acres of wooded land, build a small shack in the middle of it (with no external utilities at all) and live entirely off of what you can forage, and, have no contact whatsoever with any other human being ever again...sounds nice, doesn't it? It's only a shame that it is absolutely impossible in the United States, and there is absolutely no truthful iteration of the facts that allows for any human being living in the United States to legally do this.

Let's start with the 20 acres. I can't "own" it, since vast majority of the population is not allowed to own land (You have paid off your mortgage? You haven't owed the bank a single red cent in more than a decade? Don't pay your property taxes for a couple of years...see what happens to you. Regardless of the language you want to use, you pay someone else a periodic stipend of money for the privilege of using that land...that's RENT. If you "rent" something, you can't possibly "own"...the two are kind of mutually exclusive). Since I can't personally own the land, maybe I can live on some federal land...that's supposed to belong to everybody, right? Except for pages upon pages of federal law that prevent "squatting".

Then there's the issue of feeding myself. I'm not buying any food whatsoever (in this hypothetical example)...I don't need to. If I'm in the wild, all I have to do is reach out about a foot in any direction, and there's food. I can forage for everything I need, and enjoy a healthier diet than most of you...except now I owe income tax. If I pick acorns up off the ground, eat nothing else but grass and roadkill...that's "income", according to the IRS. According to the IRS, if I am alive, it is because I have procured and/or consumed something that they have a right to tax. (Don't believe me? Read the IRS tax code sometime, or even better, just do some research on Joe Louis.)

There's a word for this situation, when a human being is inescapably trapped in a working situation he has no choice about, surrounded by armed people who will impede (with lethal force) his every attempt to change his situation, or even remove himself from it...what is it called again, when working relationships are entirely coercive?

Yeah. It's called life. We're social animals. Deal with it.

As for your more specific points: I kind of agree about "owning" property, though the actual tax on 20 acres of undeveloped rural land will be very low. Get a conservation easement on it and it'll be negligible most places.
The IRS might technically count those acorns as income, but unless you're pulling in an awful lot of them, they're going to fall well below the standard deduction. You won't owe anything. No one's going to come looking for you. No more than they audit the homeless guy collecting empty beer cans.
Joe Lewis? The boxer? He wasn't living on acorns.

[Doug's Workshop]

Andrew R wrote:

And burning massive quantities of fossil fuels to travel around the globe to talk and having a house that uses more electricity than most by far.....

Now Andrew, you should know better than to mock one of our betters. Al Gore CARES. Why do you think he burns thousands of gallons of jet fuel to attend tropical resorts speaking on behalf of the environment? Do you think Glenn Beck would bother to waste a precious resource when he could just as easily teleconference? Al just knows how much people would be disappointed if he didn't attend.

I mean, sure, Al's made millions of dollars selling his "green energy" stocks to people just before the bottom dropped out of the green energy market. And sure he sold his television network to a news company that gets its funding from oil-rich emirs who have a vested interest in keeping energy prices high. And sure Al tried to finalize the sale before January 1 to take advantage of the lower tax rates. But that's all because he cares.

Glenn Beck thinks the individual should have power over his own life. That obviously means he doesn't care. You might point to the massive charity projects Beck has participated in, but how can individuals coming together be more successful than government taking productive people's money and distributing it to those who did nothing to earn it? Or giving it to well-connected companies like GM or Solyndra.

Thoes companies care, just like Al. And that's why we should take people's money away from them, because if they are allowed to make their own decisions with their money, they may stop giving it to incompetant nitwits.

[meatrace]

Let me write this down:
1)Al gore is a hypocrite.
2)?????
3)Therefore global warming is a myth.

Could you go over point 2 again guys? I didn't quite get it in my scramble to scribble these nuggets of wisdom.

[Doug's Workshop]

Psst, meatrace. It's not "global warming" anymore. All the cool kids say "climate change."