Scroll level


Rules Questions


Hi guys,

I have a question regarding casting from scrolls. Until now I was almost sure I've understood how it works in theory, but now that I've saw how my player used it during a session it seems overpowered.

So, he is a 4 lvl Witch. And got a lvl 4 Black Tentacles scroll(CL7) - it's standard treasure from the final fight of an AP.

According to the description in the PRD his CL is lower than the CL of the scroll so he just needs to make and d20+4 vs 8 caster level check and can cast it as CL7. Even if he fails (and doesn't suffer a mishap) he can try it again in the next round.

He just smashed a very hard encounter with just one spell that is 2 levels higher than he should be able to cast at this level.

Is this how the rules work? Or are we doing something wrong?


no if you fall you cant retry to use it until 24hrs have passed. Now as long as the spell is on his spell list and is not restricted "taken off spell list like can happen to wizards" he can cast a spell form a scroll without making the UMD check. So lets say that you give a 1st lv wizard a scroll of wish, he can use it with out making any check unless wish was one of the prohibited schools.


Note that such a scroll represents almost 1/8th of a 4th level character's WBL.

Everything seems legit.


I can not help but think you are drastically undervaluing losing a standard action in combat. When most combats are decided in 3 rounds most people would not even attempt this unless the odds are very much in their favor.

On to he next thing I don't get the people that want scrolls to be wasted when you fail the check. Scrolls are for to expensive for this and frankly the idea does not make a damn bit of sense. How on earth could failing to activate something waste it... you failed to...activate it.


Heaggles wrote:
no if you fall you cant retry to use it until 24hrs have passed. Now as long as the spell is on his spell list and is not restricted "taken off spell list like can happen to wizards" he can cast a spell form a scroll without making the UMD check. So lets say that you give a 1st lv wizard a scroll of wish, he can use it with out making any check unless wish was one of the prohibited schools.

Please cite re: 24 hours.


Heaggles wrote:
no if you fall you cant retry to use it until 24hrs have passed. Now as long as the spell is on his spell list and is not restricted "taken off spell list like can happen to wizards" he can cast a spell form a scroll without making the UMD check. So lets say that you give a 1st lv wizard a scroll of wish, he can use it with out making any check unless wish was one of the prohibited schools.

You should honestly read the rules before giving advice.

"Try Again

Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours."

It is only if you fail on a one. Note FAIL on a one. If your skill is high enough that you pass on a 1 then it can not fail (like any other skill.)


oh sorry it is if rolled a 1 and failed then you cant retry for 24 hours.

Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.


Uh... and even that is only if you are using UMD...


Sounds like everything was done correctly, yeah.

The main drawback would be that it is a limited use item, so unless they get more of them, they won't be using it again (until they can learn black tentacles on their own, that is).

@ Heaggles: I think you're mixed up on a couple things. Scrolls require caster level checks if you aren't a high enough caster level to use the spell yourself. A level 1 wizard could not just cast a scroll of wish without succeeding on a caster level check of 18 (while rolling 1d20+1). What you may be thinking of is wands, which do not need checks to be used, provided the spell is on a class list.

Secondly, being unable to try again for 24 hours is generally only if you make a UMD check and roll a natural 1. In that case, if you didn't activate the item, you can't try again for 24 hours.

And, I see the bit about UMD is clearly already resolved.


oh yea sorry wands are the ones that can be used as long as you have the spell. Just reread it :p


Now I wonder what would happen with a Wand of Wishes at first level. That seems like it'd be quite funny. If only they went over level 4.


Ravingdork could always loan you his infinite staff of wishes.

Edit: Er, Staff of Infinite Wishes (although infinite staff has a nice ring to it; TM, COPYRIGHT, ORIGINAL IDEA DO NOT STEAL! :p)


Yeah, I was kinda thinking of that. This would just have 5 times as many charges, but then is fully disposable :P

Iirc, I believe it's called the Staff of Wishful Thinking ;)


Heaggles wrote:
no if you fall you cant retry to use it until 24hrs have passed. Now as long as the spell is on his spell list and is not restricted "taken off spell list like can happen to wizards" he can cast a spell form a scroll without making the UMD check. So lets say that you give a 1st lv wizard a scroll of wish, he can use it with out making any check unless wish was one of the prohibited schools.

Any spell from a wizards opposition school is still on his spell list, and he can cast that spell as normal. The only differences are that it takes up 2 spell slots and you take a -5 on spellcraft checks when crafting items or identifying spells from your opposition school.


Ok, thanks. I guess my players will now start to buy higher level scrolls, cause the spell is really much more powerful than anything they have at their disposal at this level (CMB+12 is much too much for their enemies at this level).

I've read the description again and realized it only lightly implies that the spell from the scroll is cast at the higher caster level (the scroll's CL and not the player's character CL).

Is there a place in the rules where this is mentioned more clearly?


Tadeus wrote:

I've read the description again and realized it only lightly implies that the spell from the scroll is cast at the higher caster level (the scroll's CL and not the player's character CL).

Is there a place in the rules where this is mentioned more clearly?

Unless otherwise specified, scrolls are made at the lowest possible caster level for the spell (7, for a Black Tentacles by a witch or wizard).

Quote:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.

That said, while Black Tentacles is a nice spell, I'm surprised it would really mess up an encounter so badly. If the player got a very situational use of it off, that's great for them, but relying on a bunch of scrolls above normal CL is probably going to eat into their Wealth fairly quickly, I would think.

And of course, as the GM, you are free to parcel out items as you see fit. If you don't want them getting a bunch of scrolls to pull this trick off again, you can say that there just aren't a lot of spellcasters around to make them, meaning the party won't get as much access to them.

GM fiat, I know, but it's completely within your rights.

Grand Lodge

CMB +12 at 4th level is easily doable without using a spell to get there. The main benefit is that it is an area of effect. Also remember that it is a single roll, compared against all targets, not a roll against each target. Roll a 1, and it fails globally.

CMD = 10 + Str mod + Dex mod + BAB

A 4th level fighter-type is going to run toward a 20 or higher CMD, not counting special or class abilities.

There is a first level Cleric spell, Liberating Command or some such, from the Andoran, Spirit of Liberty book, that gives its target an immediate action attempt to escape a grapple, with a bonus of 2 times the caster's caster level.

Grease, another first level spell, gives a +10 to Escape Artist checks to escape a grapple.

The Cleric Domain Liberation gives an ability to literally just ignore Black Tentacles.

Once they actually have the ability to use Black Tentacles as a memorized spell, there are a bunch of counters available (Dispel Magic, anyone?).

Heck, unless the encounter is in a restricted area, levitation/flying completely bypass it.

Overall, it isn't much more powerful than spells already available, like Web and Entangle. And the various Pit spells...

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