Are Mythic Spells hard on spontaneous casters?

[Umbral Reaver]

A prepared caster only needs to have theoretical access to the base spell in order to gain the mythic version; a wizard needs it in the spell book and a cleric needs only to be able to prepare it.

A spontaneous caster must know the spell. That's a huge cost in comparison to the wizard's minor cost of some gp for scribing and the cleric's zero cost.

Is there a better solution?

[Raelynn]

Yeah but Paizo seems to hate on spontaneous casters pretty hard already so it's nothing new.

[Dekalinder]

+1, nothing much to say really

[LazarX]

I don't really have a problem with this. A Mythic spell is something you have to have access to directly. Theorectically it's a powered up version of a spell that you'd have been already using. It still comes down to having the same number of mythic spells whether you are sorcerer or wizard, so I don't see a problem with this. Nor do I see this as "hate on spontaneous casters."

Or if you are going to go that route, it's balanced by the fact that Wild Arcana is orgiastic love for spontaneous casters. For one mystic power point cast ANY spell on your class list? Can I have a double serving of that please?

[Dekalinder]

the problem is a mage can learn sleep, leave in the spellbook without preparing it and still casting the epic versionn. A Sorc can't.

An appropriate fix would be requiring prepared caster to actually prepare the non-epic version to eb able to cast the empowered one. Actually, a better fix even imho would be for epic spell to actually require to use a slot of the appropriate level or burn a prepared charge of the non epic spell.

[LazarX]

Dekalinder wrote:

the problem is a mage can learn sleep, leave in the spellbook without preparing it and still casting the epic versionn. A Sorc can't.

An appropriate fix would be requiring prepared caster to actually prepare the non-epic version to eb able to cast the empowered one. Actually, a better fix even imho would be for epic spell to actually require to use a slot of the appropriate level or burn a prepared charge of the non epic spell.

I don't see the problem that your solution is trying to fix. It just means my sorcerer has both regular and mythic color spary in his repetoire. He doesn't have any lesser amount of spells. He just has one he's not using any more.

On the other hand with Wild Arcana, he has access to every single spell on his class list. EVERY ONE.

[Dekalinder]

I'll put it as easy as i can even though i'm by no means an expert in the explainations field.

Sorcer: he chose epic spell A. Now he can cast the mithyc version of spell A x times a day. Everything else in unchanged

Wizard: he chose epic spell A. Now he can cast the mithyc version of spell A x times a day. If he want, he can now prepare in the slot he used to cast spell A any spell he deems necessary while still being able to cast the epic improved spell A.

As you can see for the wizard is better.

To use math in case you are better with it
Spell a sorcer Knows: Sk
Spell a sorcer can cast: Sc
Spell a wizard can cast: Wc
Differents spells a wizard can cast any given day: Wk
Number of mithyc spell a character can cast: E
Different number of mithyc spell a character can cast: Ed

Without mithyc, Wk = Mc

Now apply mithyc
Sk is invariate
Sc increase by E
Wc increase by E
Wk increase by Ed (since Wizard doesnt need to prepare the base version of th epic spell)

As you can see the wizard gets double benefit from the mithyc spells.
If you think is ok, that's your opinion. If you think is not true, that's wrong.

Wild arcana on the opposite is equally good for both, since the sorcer benefit more from the increased spell repertory but the wizard benefit a lot more from the saved spell slot since he rarely can afford to double or even worse triple cast a given spell.

[KainPen]

a wizard can only cast the mythic spell as many times as the spell is prepared.
"The following spells have an enhanced effect if the
caster expends one use of mythic power at the time of
casting."

you have to be casting the original spell first then boost it with mythic power point. And wizard must prepare that spell to cast it. you do not get X number of mythic spell per day. you only know X number of mythic spells for all casters.

nothing has changed, Sorc can spam the same mythic spell over and over again and a wizard can only do as many times as it is prepared.

[Peter Stewart]

As KainPen, my understanding is that you have to have the mythic spell in question prepared in order to cast it. I'd welcome any text that indicates otherwise.

Until I see such, I don't understand what the issue is.

[Dekalinder]

That line must have slipped under my eyes. Then i guess the guestion is moot since it never existed in the first place. Damn, so good for the wall of text i wrote XD

[LazarX]

Peter Stewart wrote:

As KainPen, my understanding is that you have to have the mythic spell in question prepared in order to cast it. I'd welcome any text that indicates otherwise.

Until I see such, I don't understand what the issue is.

The Wizard who gains Epic Sleep still has to prepare the Sleep spell as standard. Like his Sorcerer the sister who also took Epic Sleep before him. (He's kind of a copycat), they have two choices.

1. Cast Sleep as normal.

2. Cast Epic Sleep by casting the standard spell and boosting it with Mythic power.

If they both decide to cast epic sleep again in Round 2, the wizard has a problem, he's already used his one prepared slot of the spell. In order to do the spam like his sister does. (he's got really severe copycat issues) He'd have to spend two mythic points to her one, one to bring up the spell with Wild Arcana, (yes,copycat issues again :) and another to power up the Epic features.

[Artanthos]

Raelynn wrote:

Yeah but Paizo seems to hate on spontaneous casters pretty hard already so it's nothing new.

Of course they do.

Which is why spontaneous casters have been getting increasing access to spells known.

Go buy a page of spell knowledge: problem solved.

[Peter Stewart]

LazarX wrote:

Peter Stewart wrote:

As KainPen, my understanding is that you have to have the mythic spell in question prepared in order to cast it. I'd welcome any text that indicates otherwise.

Until I see such, I don't understand what the issue is.

The Wizard who gains Epic Sleep still has to prepare the Sleep spell as standard. Like his Sorcerer the sister who also took Epic Sleep before him. (He's kind of a copycat), they have two choices.

1. Cast Sleep as normal.

2. Cast Epic Sleep by casting the standard spell and boosting it with Mythic power.

If they both decide to cast epic sleep again in Round 2, the wizard has a problem, he's already used his one prepared slot of the spell. In order to do the spam like his sister does. (he's got really severe copycat issues) He'd have to spend two mythic points to her one, one to bring up the spell with Wild Arcana, (yes,copycat issues again :) and another to power up the Epic features.

Right.... where I get foggy is where it suggests that in some way the prepared caster is superior as a result.

[Lou Diamond]

Why would a Wizard have to prepare Sleep if he wanted to prepare Mythic
Sleep? They are two diffret spells. Mythic Sleep is not a Meta Magic version of sleep but a stronger version of the Sleep spell.

The reason the wizard neeeds to know sleep is the same reason a martial type needs to know point blank shot befroe he can get precise shot. Sleep is a perreq for Mythic Sleep.

[Peter Stewart]

Lou Diamond wrote:

Why would a Wizard have to prepare Sleep if he wanted to prepare Mythic

Sleep? They are two diffret spells. Mythic Sleep is not a Meta Magic version of sleep but a stronger version of the Sleep spell.

The reason the wizard neeeds to know sleep is the same reason a martial type needs to know point blank shot befroe he can get precise shot. Sleep is a perreq for Mythic Sleep.

You aren't learning "Mythic Sleep", a totally new spell. You are learning to add a splash of mythic power to your sleep spell. E.g. how to make it a "mythic" sleep spell.

You still have to cast sleep. Further, you don't actually prepare "mythic sleep" at all. You don't prepare mythic spells at all.

Come on guys, first page of the mythic magic chapter.

[Matrix Dragon]

The issue that one of my players is going to have is that he is a Wordcaster Sorcerer... so he doesn't even know any spells that he can turn into mythic spells!

I've been pondering houseruling it that when he learns a mythic spell he also gets to add the normal one to his spells known list.... but only as long as he can already cast a similar 'word' spell.

[LazarX]

Peter Stewart wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Peter Stewart wrote:

As KainPen, my understanding is that you have to have the mythic spell in question prepared in order to cast it. I'd welcome any text that indicates otherwise.

Until I see such, I don't understand what the issue is.

The Wizard who gains Epic Sleep still has to prepare the Sleep spell as standard. Like his Sorcerer the sister who also took Epic Sleep before him. (He's kind of a copycat), they have two choices.

1. Cast Sleep as normal.

2. Cast Epic Sleep by casting the standard spell and boosting it with Mythic power.

If they both decide to cast epic sleep again in Round 2, the wizard has a problem, he's already used his one prepared slot of the spell. In order to do the spam like his sister does. (he's got really severe copycat issues) He'd have to spend two mythic points to her one, one to bring up the spell with Wild Arcana, (yes,copycat issues again :) and another to power up the Epic features.

Right.... where I get foggy is where it suggests that in some way the prepared caster is superior as a result.

That's because there is no such superiority, just nerdreflex panic by some sorcerer player

[Ob1Kn00b]

Personally I find it hard to hear why in the world sorcerers would be complaining about mythic spells at all, considering the wonderful benefits they get... Wild Arcana is simply one of the most beautiful things ever, especially if you're using, as several here seem to, mythic tier + class or 1/2 class level + 3.

Personally as a heirophant/oracle, I've been finding having the Heirophant equivalent up and getting to keep PDFs of all spellbooks open to be rather hilarious.