Home Security for your Demiplane


Advice


I've been thinking about the Create Demiplane spells and how they make for some very interesting environments, both as a GM and as a player.

I'm curious about steps one might take to secure them though; presumably if you are a wizard who made one you don't want people just wandering in.

Firstly, the spell description says that the demiplane is created out of either the ethereal plane or the astral plane. Does this mean that beings wandering around those planes can perceive and enter your demiplane from those planes? The last thing you would want is to return to your private demiplane and find that it's full of Xill (is Xill the plural of Xill? It could be Xilli...).

Also, what spells might you put on a demiplane to control access to the plane? Let's assume that the creator has built in a fixed gate to the material plane but doesn't want someone wandering in with nothing but a knock spell. Presumably you would be looking for permanent effects rather than things you would have to constantly cast every day.

So what do you guys think?

Peet

Dark Archive

As far I know, although it is made of the essence of either the astral or ethereal planes, there's no direct connection, merely a close proximity, so wondering creatures shouldn't be a problem, unless they happen to know 'where' the demiplane is.

An excellent guide, although its 3.5, is The Stronghold Builder's Guide. It has lots of options for building your own keep, but also has a few useful spells that can be used to keep people and critters from where you don't want them.

EDIT: also, this is useful:

Create Lesser Demiplane wrote:
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane.


Shin Bilirubin wrote:
As far I know, although it is made of the essence of either the astral or ethereal planes, there's no direct connection, merely a close proximity, so wondering creatures shouldn't be a problem, unless they happen to know 'where' the demiplane is.

Since the Ethereal and Astral planes are transitive planes, I would assume that there would have to be some way to move from them to a demiplane located therein, although from the description of the spell it does seem that the demiplane would not ordinarily be 'visible' to people wandering around on those planes. However, one could reasonably assume that there must be some way to detect a demiplane existing on the astral or ethereal planes by someone present.

Interestingly, you would never need to worry about incorporeal creatures in your demiplane, since incorporeal creatures have their properties based on the fact that they are ethereal creatures interacting with the prime material plane. Once you are off the prime material plane you are no longer in an area pervaded by the ethereal plane. If a ghost made it into your demiplane he would be perfectly tangible.

Shin Bilirubin wrote:
An excellent guide, although its 3.5, is The Stronghold Builder's Guide. It has lots of options for building your own keep, but also has a few useful spells that can be used to keep people and critters from where you don't want them.

I'll keep my eye out, though I'd prefer to see solutions using Pathfinder material.

I imagine the spell teleport trap would be commonly useful. I assume that someone using plane shift would be caught by one.

It occurs to me that a secondary "prison" plane would be useful. The prison plane would be a dead magic zone, and would have gravity. It would have an atmosphere that did not reach all the way to the top of the demiplane; it would have a thin layer of air usable by those on the ground. The gate to the plane would be at the top in the airless section. Once in the plane beings could not use aerodynamic flight to escape, as there is no air to support them at the top of the plane, and magical flight does not work either. Basically someone would need to bring along rockets in order to get out, which is pretty unlikely. The 'top' would be high enough that jumping would not allow you to reach the top, and there would be no walls to take hold of.

Shin Bilirubin wrote:

EDIT: also, this is useful:

Create Lesser Demiplane wrote:
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane.

This is true, but presumably you need to be present and aware of the intruders. I would prefer something that works even when you are not around. Also, it allows a will save, which negates the effect.

Peet


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Create plane does not give a lot of details on how the plane interacts with the transitive plane it is connected to, so much of this is going to be up to the GM. If the demiplane is coexistent it allows greater access to the plane including the ability of extrapanar creatures to travel through the plane. If the plane is coterminous, it limits the interaction of exterplanar creatures. From the intent of the spell, I would say that a demiplane created by it would be coterminous by default. If given the choice, that is what most casters are going to choose anyways.

Whether an astral or ethereal traveler can enter the demiplane is going to depend on the abilities of that creature and how they are traveling through the plane. One thing to keep in mind is that the demiplane is its own plane and not the material plane. A lot of creatures have the ability to enter the material plane, but those abilities will not work on the demiplane. Xill’s for example, can enter the material plane, but cannot enter other inner planes.

One way to protect your plane is to use a layered plane. The top plane is a dead magic plane with two permanent portals. The first portal is to the material world, the second leads to the real demiplane. Make the second portal hidden and use some sort of physical closure to prevent other from using it even if they find it. A mechanical trap of some sort would be the obvious solution.

Scarab Sages

So heading to bed but a quick series of clips from the spell . . .

When you cast the spell, you decide whether the demiplane is within the Astral or the Ethereal Plane.

So my reading of it has always been that its a bubble in the astral or ethereal plane like bubbles of air in the plane of water. Of course given the infinite size of those planes anyone stumbling across it is unlikely. However its complicated by . . .

As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane).

Which implies you can cast it on the material plane, place it on the astral plane then eject people back to the material plane?

The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage’s disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

Your first priority should be countering or blocking these spells if possible.

If the duration on one area of the demiplane ends and other parts remain, creatures in the expiring area are shunted to remaining areas. If a collapsing portion of the demiplane would leave one section cut off from other sections of the demiplane (for example, if there were three areas connected in a straight line and the center part expired), the stranded sections count as separate demiplanes under your control.

Layering your plane on the astral then letting the part on the astral collapse could depending on the GM leave you with a demiplane completely isolated from any known plane. As in . . .

1-2-1
0-2-0
0-2-0

1-1-1
0-0-0
0-2-0

With 1 being the astral, 0 being nothingness and 2 being your plane.

Also as mentioned above your plane is your plane so anyone even wanting in will need some ability e.g. planeshift that works on any plane and a tuning fork that resonates at your planes frequency. Protecting knowledge of what that frequency should be your second concern.

Powerful golems and other guardians who can double as artwork are always a nice choice.


Hao Jin Tapestry


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Azothath wrote:
Hao Jin Tapestry

tying access to a physical object is probably the best way to constrain access. This allows you to put the access point in your handy haversack (making it inaccessible), in another secure location or in a secure object(golem, clockwork levithian, ...)/creature(pharaonic guardian, gigas clam, etc).

Next is to place a guardian on the object AT the access point on the prime (or where ever). Putting guards IN the realm can be done but you have to have a teleport trap effect to funnel everyone going in/out to a specific geographical/architectural location/place in the demiplane. Honestly it is probably more trouble at that point as you want to use the demiplane for your own escape/location obfuscation so having several spots in the plane IS better.

Still, there are spells and methods that once casters have access to the plane and time (via spell research) they can figure out workarounds.

Scarab Sages

Azothath wrote:
Hao Jin Tapestry

I really want my mage to be able to create something on that scale rather than tiny planes we can manage. Hao Jin, Baba Yaga, Geb, Nex they all made huge private planes somehow.


All those characters are either immortal or lived for multiple centuries. All of them are also probably mythic characters. Baba Yaga is listed as a 20th level Witch, Tier 10 Archemage. Hao Jin is a 20th level sorcerer 9th Tier Archemage. The Wiki does not give any mythic tiers to Geb, but that is probably an oversite.

If your character is a high tier mythic archemage with the mythic version of greater create deimi-plane and mythic permanency spends a couple hundred years creating your demi-plane you can probably get something similar.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Create plane does not give a lot of details on how the plane interacts with the transitive plane it is connected to, so much of this is going to be up to the GM. If the demiplane is coexistent it allows greater access to the plane including the ability of extrapanar creatures to travel through the plane. If the plane is coterminous, it limits the interaction of exterplanar creatures. From the intent of the spell, I would say that a demiplane created by it would be coterminous by default. If given the choice, that is what most casters are going to choose anyways.

Whether an astral or ethereal traveler can enter the demiplane is going to depend on the abilities of that creature and how they are traveling through the plane. One thing to keep in mind is that the demiplane is its own plane and not the material plane. A lot of creatures have the ability to enter the material plane, but those abilities will not work on the demiplane. Xill’s for example, can enter the material plane, but cannot enter other inner planes.

One way to protect your plane is to use a layered plane. The top plane is a dead magic plane with two permanent portals. The first portal is to the material world, the second leads to the real demiplane. Make the second portal hidden and use some sort of physical closure to prevent other from using it even if they find it. A mechanical trap of some sort would be the obvious solution.

I like this solution, except that if someone knows about your second plane and it isn't dead magic then they can directly travel to it (assuming they have an attuned tuning fork, which is a big thing people forget at least with the planar travel spell). Unless your concept somehow allows hiding one of your demiplanes inside another, which I'm not sure is supported by the rules.


most of the examples in RAW use authorial/GM creative license (which can get translated into Mythic or Artifact status as most creators don't want to write a boring or simple set piece so they get a bit big or grandiose and expand beyond what the spell system outlines). Published RAW wants and expects Home GMs to continue development and fill in all the details.

Most just show up as descriptive entries without a lot of published adventures. The Hao Jin saga though was developed through PFS and so there are multiple adventures and a storyline attached. So it is developed in a way that most are not.

Another type is "mindscapes" that took it 'mental' rather than physical. It is a specialized pocket dimension and allows spellcasting and some other actions. They have a set of spells associated with them.


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Greater Create Demiplane specifically allows you to create a permanent portal, and it also specifically allows creating a dead magic plane. There is a warning on a dead magic plane that you are trapped in your plane unless there is a permanent portal and references the portal section of the description.

The description lesser create demiplane specifies you must be on the astral or ethereal plane or a plane that has access to one of those planes. Since the first plane you create has to have access to one of those planes nothing prevents you from creating another plane from that plane instead of enlarging the first one.

You would need to create the first plane and make it permanent. After that you create the second plane and make that permanent. Then use greater create demiplane to create two permanent portals. The first portal leads to the other plane, while the second portal leads to whatever entry plane you want to use. When you add a feature, the duration is instantaneous, so you do not require a permanency for the features. Finally use greater create demiplane to make the first plane a magic dead plane. The second plane can continue to be expanded and altered even after the first one is made magic dead. You could in fact create a series of nested planes with this method.

Scarab Sages

Azothath wrote:

most of the examples in RAW use authorial/GM creative license (which can get translated into Mythic or Artifact status as most creators don't want to write a boring or simple set piece so they get a bit big or grandiose and expand beyond what the spell system outlines). Published RAW wants and expects Home GMs to continue development and fill in all the details.

Most just show up as descriptive entries without a lot of published adventures. The Hao Jin saga though was developed through PFS and so there are multiple adventures and a storyline attached. So it is developed in a way that most are not.

Another type is "mindscapes" that took it 'mental' rather than physical. It is a specialized pocket dimension and allows spellcasting and some other actions. They have a set of spells associated with them.

Yep and even Mythic is barely better than create demiplane when it comes to size.


The mythic version increases the size to a 20-foot cube vs a 10-foot cube. That means the area is 8 times larger per casting. Mythic characters are also going to have a higher casting stat, which means more spells per day. Most mythic casters can also use mythic points to cast more spells Wild Arcana allows you to cast any spell off your list for 1 mythic point. It also increases the caster level by 2.

Greater create demiplane allows a 20th level caster to create 400 10-foot cubes per casting. Mythic greater create demiplane changes those cubes to 20-foot cubes. So, each casting of mythic greater create demiplane gives you 3,200,000 cubic feet. A 20th level wizard with 10 mythic tiers should be able to cast around 14 mythic greater create demiplanes per day. So, after a year the volume would be 16,352,000,000 cubic feet. After 100 years that would be 1,635,200,000,000 cubic feet. That would be enough to get a 5.19-mile diameter that was half a mile high.

If you are immortal, you might be able to alter the flow of time in your plane to allow you to build it at an accelerated pace. You would still need to have the resources for casting the spells. That would allow you to create a 7.35-mile diameter by ½ mile high per hundred years.

Scarab Sages

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The mythic version increases the size to a 20-foot cube vs a 10-foot cube. That means the area is 8 times larger per casting. Mythic characters are also going to have a higher casting stat, which means more spells per day. Most mythic casters can also use mythic points to cast more spells Wild Arcana allows you to cast any spell off your list for 1 mythic point. It also increases the caster level by 2.

Greater create demiplane allows a 20th level caster to create 400 10-foot cubes per casting. Mythic greater create demiplane changes those cubes to 20-foot cubes. So, each casting of mythic greater create demiplane gives you 3,200,000 cubic feet. A 20th level wizard with 10 mythic tiers should be able to cast around 14 mythic greater create demiplanes per day. So, after a year the volume would be 16,352,000,000 cubic feet. After 100 years that would be 1,635,200,000,000 cubic feet. That would be enough to get a 5.19-mile diameter that was half a mile high.

If you are immortal, you might be able to alter the flow of time in your plane to allow you to build it at an accelerated pace. You would still need to have the resources for casting the spells. That would allow you to create a 7.35-mile diameter by ½ mile high per hundred years.

Sorry I was talking about mythic sanctum not mythic demiplane. Sanctum is 20' cubes x tier whereas demiplane is 10 foot cubes x level so they work out around the same.

I will point out things like the Hao Jin tapestry are far larger than even your 5 mile area and I doubt she spent a century just casting to get it. However I suggest we drop this here as its not the point of this thread.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Greater Create Demiplane specifically allows you to create a permanent portal, and it also specifically allows creating a dead magic plane. There is a warning on a dead magic plane that you are trapped in your plane unless there is a permanent portal and references the portal section of the description.

The description lesser create demiplane specifies you must be on the astral or ethereal plane or a plane that has access to one of those planes. Since the first plane you create has to have access to one of those planes nothing prevents you from creating another plane from that plane instead of enlarging the first one.

You would need to create the first plane and make it permanent. After that you create the second plane and make that permanent. Then use greater create demiplane to create two permanent portals. The first portal leads to the other plane, while the second portal leads to whatever entry plane you want to use. When you add a feature, the duration is instantaneous, so you do not require a permanency for the features. Finally use greater create demiplane to make the first plane a magic dead plane. The second plane can continue to be expanded and altered even after the first one is made magic dead. You could in fact create a series of nested planes with this method.

It's not actually nested though is the problem. Just because the second, non-dead magic plane has a portal to the dead magic plane doesn't mean that's the only method of entry.

If someone was aware of the second plane, nothing prevents plane shifting to it directly, as far as I can see. Now there is the issue that plane shift requires you to have an attuned tuning fork, which is incredibly hard to get or produce if you haven't been to the plane previously or didn't create it. But it's not impossible. I guess the issue that I have with your description is that you somehow think the the second plane is like an inner layer of onion and the first layer of dead magic onion prevents access. When in reality, as I understand it the second plane is actually a whole other onion in the sea that is astral and ethereal planes.


The core rule book does have information on layered planes and accessing planes. The core rule book states access to a layered plane from elsewhere usually happen on the first layer of the plane. It also states that some planes (Coterminous planes) only touch other planes at specific points. So, the plane structure that I am describing is well within the rules.

The description of the create demiplane spells do not mention how creating a plane within a plane functions. I have not found anything that clarifies how exactly it would work. The first line of create lesser demiplane does specify you must be on a plane that does have access to one of those plane. Obviously any plane you create with create demiplane will have a connection to one of those planes. Without further clarification how this works is up to the GM.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The description of the create demiplane spells do not mention how creating a plane within a plane functions. I have not found anything that clarifies how exactly it would work. The first line of create lesser demiplane does specify you must be on a plane that does have access to one of those plane. Obviously any plane you create with create demiplane will have a connection to one of those planes. Without further clarification how this works is up to the GM.

That's precisely my point. The rules of create lesser demiplane don't specify how it works with respect to being layered or not. You might have a generous GM who says sure and others say no.

It's reasonable to say "maybe you can do this" but you also need to say it's not clearly supported either.


Claxon wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The description of the create demiplane spells do not mention how creating a plane within a plane functions. I have not found anything that clarifies how exactly it would work. The first line of create lesser demiplane does specify you must be on a plane that does have access to one of those plane. Obviously any plane you create with create demiplane will have a connection to one of those planes. Without further clarification how this works is up to the GM.

That's precisely my point. The rules of create lesser demiplane don't specify how it works with respect to being layered or not. You might have a generous GM who says sure and others say no.

It's reasonable to say "maybe you can do this" but you also need to say it's not clearly supported either.

I agree. This is the advice forum, not the rules so RAW is of less concern.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The description of the create demiplane spells do not mention how creating a plane within a plane functions. I have not found anything that clarifies how exactly it would work. The first line of create lesser demiplane does specify you must be on a plane that does have access to one of those plane. Obviously any plane you create with create demiplane will have a connection to one of those planes. Without further clarification how this works is up to the GM.

That's precisely my point. The rules of create lesser demiplane don't specify how it works with respect to being layered or not. You might have a generous GM who says sure and others say no.

It's reasonable to say "maybe you can do this" but you also need to say it's not clearly supported either.

I agree. This is the advice forum, not the rules so RAW is of less concern.

I agree it's of less concern, but what I'm concerned about is someone reading your post and taking it authoritatively as you can absolutely do this.


It’s always a good idea to run anything unusual past your GM before doing it, even when it is 100% legal. It gives the GM a chance to prepare for what you are doing. There are a lot of creatures out there that have extremely high INT and WIS scores. Those types of creatures will have anticipated a lot of things and already made preparations. A good GM will not take advantage of it unless the creature involved would have reason to have known about it.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
It’s always a good idea to run anything unusual past your GM before doing it, even when it is 100% legal. It gives the GM a chance to prepare for what you are doing. There are a lot of creatures out there that have extremely high INT and WIS scores. Those types of creatures will have anticipated a lot of things and already made preparations. A good GM will not take advantage of it unless the creature involved would have reason to have known about it.

The other part to this is, for a demiplane for plane shift to work you need a tuned fork. I can't recall which book published had rules for that, but there were rules. And basically you couldn't make a tuning fork for demiplane unless you were the creator or had been there. So a casters personal demiplane is quite hard to reach. Wish magic can for sure do it. Arguably wish can do it even if it's a dead magic zone. But that's much higher level magic than plane shift. I'm not sure if anything besides Wish can get around the whole tuning fork issue.

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