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During a post-Jade Regent* session discussion, our GM mentioned that he knew there were certain themes I always wanted to get to play with but hadn't had a real chance so far, and Wrath of the Righteous came up.
I'm really excited about the idea of getting to play Wrath of the Righteous because of those themes. And the GM in question had been really eager to run it until the matter of the Mythic rules came up.
I'm more neutral towards those rules; I could take or leave them as long as I got a chance to get to the sweet sweet candy** promised in WotR. But the GM who was excited about this campaign is less enthusiastic about Mythic, and to tell the truth he would be the one that had to deal with those new rules the most.
Our question was: Just how deeply wired will the Mythic rules be to the adventure path? If the GM wanted to run it without the Mythic rules, would it take a lot of surgery to do to maintain balance or playability, involve heavy rewriting, stuff of that sort? Or would it be relatively easy to plug or unplug those rules? Just wondering if it's possible to guesstimate how much work would be involved in running it as a non-Mythic campaign, if that's what it came to.
*Which has been eight shades of awesome, by the way. I think we just started the fourth book, and OH MAN.
**Redemption themes.
I would like to know this also..im a little on the fence about the mythic rules..make no mistake im buying the book...but theres something about mythic being about more "numbers" that turns me off
to me mythic is more..my paladin gets to call a baby dragon as a steed over i get +10 to a roll..i trust in paizo to make this a great project but that popped into my head as i was reading the play test
Me to
Last I heard, they are very tightly related. There may be a sidebar with some ideas, but there'll be a lot of work on the gm to convert the mythic encounters with non mythic ones.
i would really prefer to see APs that may use mythic rules for select NPCs, without injecting it whole-sale,
that you may face mythic enemies without needing mythic tiers yourself...
perhaps with rules so that if you want to use mythic more extensively, there's more advice on scaling the enemies up with it.
perhaps intro'ing mythic to the PCs themselves in the final installment or so, particularly if the levels otherwise aren't as high.
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*Which has been eight shades of awesome, by the way. I think we just started the fourth book, and OH MAN.
I so much want a campaign journal written by you.
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If this campaign happens, I can almost guarantee it. :)
Ouch though, if the rules are that hard to go without. That does throw a hurdle in the way of this campaign starting.
I actually meant your Jade Regent campaign, but for this one, too. Although more for Jade Regent, because I think your writing style ( and how you spun the story ) in that ( sadly cut short ) campaign journal for Kingmaker was awesome and I'd love to see what you and your group did with Jade Regent and the NPC relationships.
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I actually meant your Jade Regent campaign, but for this one, too. Although more for Jade Regent, because I think your writing style ( and how you spun the story ) in that ( sadly cut short ) campaign journal for Kingmaker was awesome and I'd love to see what you and your group did with Jade Regent and the NPC relationships.
Thanks! :)
Unfortunately, everything has gone so far at this point a super detailed journal of what's happened up to this point wouldn't really be possible. And with though my character in JR might be as good-hearted as Liath, he's probably not the best choice to write an in-character journal. ;)
I'll talk with the group and see if they're up for a "broad strokes" catch-up write-up leading into a slightly more detailed one picking up from our current location though! Our bard has been trying to keep everything penned down in-game to construct a saga in-setting. That might be the right framing device for the catch-up: everyone getting their facts straight.
The NPCs have been a HUGE part of what's made this one so much fun too.
Our GM's other JR game with another group has been incredible as well. I hope they can get a similar journal thing going.
Both groups have a huge amount of investment in the NPCs, setting, and each other going on, and our GM shared some stories about some of the latest interactions between the other group and the NPCs that really...man. Heartstrings stuff.
As for Wrath...if it happens, Liath's coming back for that one. :)
I'm looking forward to all of that and I hope you get consent to do the write-up style Jade Regent journal. Seeing how your Curse of the Crimson Throne recaps also were extremely enjoyable to read (still hoping to get an account of the resolution of that campaign and Laoris ultimate fate ^^), I think any re-tellings of Jade Regent from you will also be great. :)
My own Jade Regent groups just finished part two, with one group going on hiatus, so that another GM can start Rise of the Runelords ( that will be weird, dealing with Ameiko now as a player, instead of as a GM... ) and the other will start module three next week.
Thanks, I hope I can get the overland journey aspect right, it really seems quite different than what one normally expects from an AP.
And I'm eager to read that CotCT finale. :)
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Thanks, I hope I can get the overland journey aspect right, it really seems quite different than what one normally expects from an AP.
And I'm eager to read that CotCT finale. :)
One thing our JR GM has been doing has been rolling the encounters ahead of time and fleshing them out, so that they feel less random and more a part of the story or at least events with some cause and effect behind them. It's really paid off as far as immersion goes. That and he's been writing up some more scene-setting for whenever we enter a new locale.
Being a player though, that's about all I can say about what's going into it from this side. :)
Then the other group made those magic gruel spoons almost everyone forgets about. :D (the trip was still hairy as hell)
I'll have to ask him for the link to that one mood-setting piece of music that pretty much carried us through that whole book.
Thanks, I hope I can get the overland journey aspect right, it really seems quite different than what one normally expects from an AP.
And I'm eager to read that CotCT finale. :)
One thing our JR GM has been doing has been rolling the encounters ahead of time and fleshing them out, so that they feel less random and more a part of the story or at least events with some cause and effect behind them. It's really paid off as far as immersion goes. That and he's been writing up some more scene-setting for whenever we enter a new locale.
Being a player though, that's about all I can say about what's going into it from this side. :)
** spoiler omitted **
I'll have to ask him for the link to that one mood-setting piece of music that pretty much carried us through that whole book.
I'd love to have that link. By the way, one thing which is majorly bugging me is Suishen's power to cast unlimited times Protection from Cold on everybody and their dog... how did that play out with your group?
And, by the way, sorry for totally hijacking your thread. :-/
Creative Director
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The mythic rules are VERY important to Wrath of the Righteous. More so to the GM, actually, than the players.
You will be able to run Wrath of the Righteous without the mythic rules, but the GM will need to still know how mythic rules work so he can either...
1) Run the adventure as written. Mythic monsters work fine against non-mythic characters, but the non-mythic characters will need to be a bit higher level to handle the threats.
2) Run the adventure and downgrade the mythic elements to core elements. The GM will need to know how mythic rules works in order to reverse engineer several elements in the adventure path, or otherwise will need to just build brand new versions of the mythic stuff to replace them.
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. It'll have the most powerful monsters we've included in an AP. Several key elements will be about the mechanics of exactly HOW the PCs AND the bad guys are gaining mythic power. And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.
Whether or not that's a deal breaker for folks who don't like mythic stuff... Can't say for sure yet. But I can say that even if you didn't like the mythic rules as presented in the playtest... you really should swing by later to check out the final rules. AND even then... the way we treat them in the context of an adventure path may well bring things to light about how to run a mythic game and how fun it can be that the raw rules could never get across with merely a read-through.
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. ... And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.
Awesome. Please let that mean that the PCs get to make a permanent mark on the setting. (Like Lastwall gets razed to the ground, but we also get to heal the Worldwound or something.) Too many APs are simply "maintain the status quo" affairs. Let this one bring change!
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I'd love to have that link. By the way, one thing which is majorly bugging me is Suishen's power to cast unlimited times Protection from Cold on everybody and their dog... how did that play out with your group?
I'm Mikaze's GM, and also the GM thinking of eventually running Wrath of the Righteous, which conceptually sounds really exciting to me.
I also felt like the unlimited use of Suishen's Protection From Cold was excessive and would take a lot away from the feeling of a grueling trip across the Crown, so I limited its use to 3/day. That pretty much nipped it right bud. The power is still there(and still quite awesome!) without just negating all the cold related effects.
I also made a slight alteration to only allow Suishen's powers to be used on Scion's of the Amatatsu line(so Ameiko + PC's) as a sort of built-in safeguard against someone misusing Suishen's powers(How you force a super powered awesome sword to use its powers is beyond me, but hey, it makes sense from a story standpoint).
As for my 'background music' for book 3:
OC Remix of Ruined World from Chrono Trigger
No musical masterpiece by any stretch but when told to loop for a long time and the volume kept low had much of the cinematic effect I wanted it to have. Decent for setting a mood at least.
I also hope your group gets to get back on JR soon! I know book 3 is daunting because of the overland portions and I was concerned about it myself, but there is really a lot of room for character building and flavor to be inserted as time passes.
As for my hesitation(if you can really call it that) about running a Mythic campaign. My hesitance is more to do with adding extra complexity(mechanically speaking) and codifying a 'better' type of hero that I think should be the purview of the GM running the game. It's only a personal bias though on my part. I completely understand that and i'm sure that type of stuff has really been gone over in a million other threads at this point though I'm sure so I won't regurgitate it.
I will buy the Mythic Book, I will read it, and quite probably like most things that I read in it, as is the case with most everything Paizo has put out thus far. If I don't, I'm more than capable and willing to adjust those parts of WotR to better suit my groups. So fear not on that front either, so long as WotR delivers the same great 'shell' for storytelling that your other AP's do, it will be a hit with me.
The premise is strong and full of awesome, which makes me want to work hard to deliver quality gaming for my players. I only want the mythic aspects to not over complicate or slowdown a session.
Also, I do plan to make Mikaze's group do some write-up's at some point, just about their experiences/ect with Jade Regent once it is done that I will share on the JR forums.
He does have to finish up that CotCT thread though first! That was a crazy fun game for all of us involved.
I would like to know this also..im a little on the fence about the mythic rules..make no mistake im buying the book...but theres something about mythic being about more "numbers" that turns me off
to me mythic is more..my paladin gets to call a baby dragon as a steed over i get +10 to a roll..i trust in paizo to make this a great project but that popped into my head as i was reading the play test
Even though I am hugely excited to see how Mythic turns out, and I am firmly in the pro-Mythic camp...I would agree that thematic options would probably be more exciting to me than bonuses to everything. Like you said, a paladin on a young dragon sounds WAY more "Mythic" to me than a paladin with +10 to hit. I hope that both kinds of options are available in the final publication.
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Also, I do plan to make Mikaze's group do some write-up's at some point, just about their experiences/ect with Jade Regent once it is done that I will share on the JR forums.
Yeah, I remember that now. Need to start jotting down notes on the past sessions something fierce.
He does have to finish up that CotCT thread though first!
So much for playing delay-chicken with Valve. ;)
I'm Mikaze's GM, and also the GM thinking of eventually running Wrath of the Righteous, which conceptually sounds really exciting to me.** spoiler omitted **
As for the other group continueing JR, it will happen sooner or later, but as for now I'm excited about playing a Ranger in Rise of the Runelords. We will begin tomorrow evening, so I am very much looking forward to it. :)
And in regards to Suishen's power, I'll have to think about how I handle that. I already told both groups that Suishen now can cast Protection from Cold unlimited times, so it's awkward to paddle back from that, but we'll see. Unlocking the next power and simply scratching the offending one would be a possibility to put off any ruffled feathers. Unless I am mistaken, Suishens last upgrade would only unlock after defeating the Jade Regent, anyway, and that is kind of stupid.
Also, I do plan to make Mikaze's group do some write-up's at some point, just about their experiences/ect with Jade Regent once it is done that I will share on the JR forums.
He does have to finish up that CotCT thread though first! That was a crazy fun game for all of us involved.
Allright, that is something to look forward to. :) Probably a bit late if it gets done only after you guys finished JR, since I was planning to crib some of the awesome which surely is happening in your campaign. But I love a good story, so it's all good. :)
Ha, don't worry about it. :)
Okay. :)
So much for playing delay-chicken with Valve. ;)
Looking forward to it. :)
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But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. ... And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.Awesome. Please let that mean that the PCs get to make a permanent mark on the setting. (Like Lastwall gets razed to the ground, but we also get to heal the Worldwound or something.) Too many APs are simply "maintain the status quo" affairs. Let this one bring change!
The PCs get to make permanent marks on the setting to a lesser or greater extent in ALL Adventure Paths.
We won't be advancing the setting's timeline to make the events of the assumed outcome of Wrath of the Righteous canon though... any more than we did for Skull & Shackles or Jade Regent or Second Darkness or any previous AP.
Bump-dot.
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. ... And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.Awesome. Please let that mean that the PCs get to make a permanent mark on the setting. (Like Lastwall gets razed to the ground, but we also get to heal the Worldwound or something.) Too many APs are simply "maintain the status quo" affairs. Let this one bring change!The PCs get to make permanent marks on the setting to a lesser or greater extent in ALL Adventure Paths.
We won't be advancing the setting's timeline to make the events of the assumed outcome of Wrath of the Righteous canon though... any more than we did for Skull & Shackles or Jade Regent or Second Darkness or any previous AP.
Well, um, Shattered Star did. And so did Jade Regent.
** spoiler omitted **
I treat it as any Oni in service to the 5 Storms(I think it was actually suggested by James on the Jade Regent forums to do such). So Kimandatsu, Seijuro(Oni in book 3 at Ul-Angorn), stuff in book 4 will probably finish off powering up the sword in my campaign. The Ogre Mages and last boss are all in service of the 5 Storms I believe, so I will allow them to unlock additional powers there.
Like you said, it would be kinda lame to not get its powers until after the end. My players generally think Suishen is powerful and cool, so I want to keep him that way.
James, I realize things are a long ways down the pipe still on WotR but I was curious is there a plan for a sub-system(mini-system?) in the AP? In my head I was kinda thinking the Mythic rules would sorta be like a subsystem(albeit deeply embedded, as you said) for the AP, but I can't rightly say why I was thinking that?
I also have to admit, you've piqued my curiosity a bit when you said to wait and see how the Mythic parts are presented by the AP. I'd like to think Mythic is going to imply more than just extra mechanics and actually a significant difference in how(the scale, or scope) the story gets told.
If so, who gets to be the person to go back over everything and say "Crank this to 11"?
** spoiler omitted **
Well, um, Shattered Star did. And so did Jade Regent.But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. ... And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.Awesome. Please let that mean that the PCs get to make a permanent mark on the setting. (Like Lastwall gets razed to the ground, but we also get to heal the Worldwound or something.) Too many APs are simply "maintain the status quo" affairs. Let this one bring change!The PCs get to make permanent marks on the setting to a lesser or greater extent in ALL Adventure Paths.
We won't be advancing the setting's timeline to make the events of the assumed outcome of Wrath of the Righteous canon though... any more than we did for Skull & Shackles or Jade Regent or Second Darkness or any previous AP.
They've also stated that Jade Regent and Shattered Star were experiments in that regard, not the norm. And the key difference is that Jade Regent assumed previous events happened; it does not assume that the events in the AP carry on afterward. Same with Shattered Star, in both cases they are no different than any other AP in that they do not alter the future direction of the campaign setting line. So another AP down the line could theoretically assume Wrath of the Righteous happened, but the campaign setting line will not. Unless they change their design ethos but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.
At the latest with their next campaign setting, I'd say, which will come with Pathfinder 2.0. Because who needs a book which basically is the same as their last campaign setting?
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Well, um, Shattered Star did. And so did Jade Regent.But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. ... And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.Awesome. Please let that mean that the PCs get to make a permanent mark on the setting. (Like Lastwall gets razed to the ground, but we also get to heal the Worldwound or something.) Too many APs are simply "maintain the status quo" affairs. Let this one bring change!The PCs get to make permanent marks on the setting to a lesser or greater extent in ALL Adventure Paths.
We won't be advancing the setting's timeline to make the events of the assumed outcome of Wrath of the Righteous canon though... any more than we did for Skull & Shackles or Jade Regent or Second Darkness or any previous AP.
Exceptions to the rule. So did one sixth of Lost Cities of Golarion.
We also were quite vocal in the leadup to those products that they were unusual in that regard, and that they assumed previous events occurred. But even then, Shattered Star doesn't assume Kingmaker happened.
Wrath of the Righteous makes no assumptions about events before, and at this point we have no plans for releasing anything that builds upon how the world is likely to change as a result of events AFTER the AP ends.
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James, I realize things are a long ways down the pipe still on WotR but I was curious is there a plan for a sub-system(mini-system?) in the AP? In my head I was kinda thinking the Mythic rules would sorta be like a subsystem(albeit deeply embedded, as you said) for the AP, but I can't rightly say why I was thinking that?
I also have to admit, you've piqued my curiosity a bit when you said to wait and see how the Mythic parts are presented by the AP. I'd like to think Mythic is going to imply more than just extra mechanics and actually a significant difference in how(the scale, or scope) the story gets told.
If so, who gets to be the person to go back over everything and say "Crank this to 11"?
Some elements of Wrath of the Righteous will draw upon various subsystems we've printed before or will be printing soon. The big subsystem is, of course Mythic Adventures, but the AP will also draw upon the narrative mass combat rules from Kingmaker #5 (which are updated and reprinted and expanded in the upcoming Ultimate Campaign), upon some rules for redemption that'll be presented in an upcoming Player's Guide, and upon the demonic possession rules we printed in Pathfinder #28.
At this point, I suspect we'll be reprinting a chunk of the possession rules in the Player's Guide. We won't be reprinting the rules for Mythic and mass combat, since those'll be in the hardcover book line and as such will also be readily available online in the PRD and elsewhere. And the redemption rules should be simple enough that they'll function mostly behind the scenes of the adventure and won't need to be reprinted at all, but we'll see.
We won't be creating any brand-new subsystems for the AP though.
As for how the mythic stuff appears in the AP... the person who gets to go over everything and crank it up to 11 would be me.
Where can I find more information about Wrath of the Righteous?
This gives a pretty good summary for you.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Whether or not that's a deal breaker for folks who don't like mythic stuff... Can't say for sure yet. But I can say that even if you didn't like the mythic rules as presented in the playtest... you really should swing by later to check out the final rules. AND even then... the way we treat them in the context of an adventure path may well bring things to light about how to run a mythic game and how fun it can be that the raw rules could never get across with merely a read-through.
While I previous was certain to give this AP a "no thanks" due to being "hardwired mythic", I'll probably stay subscribed regardless. Damn you JJ, you did it again. I'll read through the AP with an open mind, and if it turns out ok despite my heavy reservations... who knows? ;)
Maybe the ruleset will surprise my cynical backside, and be halfway decent. Then, after having proof...
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MWA HA HA HA HA!
Also, if you've got any interest in demons or the Abyss at all but hate hate hate Mythic... I still suspect you'll quite like Wrath of the Righteous.
Well, more of a devil-fan myself, but the Worldwound has long been a sore point to me (see another thread way back ;) ), and the idea of finally seeing some material on this is really quite welcome.
In short: Mythic + Worldwound - "will mixing cola with natto taste as horrible as it sounds?" :)
The mythic rules are VERY important to Wrath of the Righteous. More so to the GM, actually, than the players...
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself... Several key elements will be about the mechanics of exactly HOW the PCs AND the bad guys are gaining mythic power.
I'm still on the fence about this AP. I'm excited to learn more about the Worldwound, so that's a strong positive. But I convert the APs to another edition rather than using the Pathfinder rules, and it's really hard to tell whether that's going to be possible with Wrath of the Righteous or not.
In my imagination, it seems like the mythic ruleset is comparable to the way I recently ran the original Ravenloft adventure. When the PCs enter the castle, Strahd is invincible and is just toying with the PCs. Then, as they explore the castle, they find various items of power (which I compare to gaining the mythic abilities) which allow the PCs to bypass some of Strahd's specific protections. When they finally face Strahd in the crypts, with those protections gone, it's a tough but winnable fight instead of certain death. I'm not sure if that's really a valid comparison, but if I knew it was, I'd be completely on board. Or is that way too simplistic?
James (hopefully you'll see this post) - I pose this question to you as the developer for this AP... For this AP compared to prior Paizo APs: Where on the scale between "just as easy" to "nearly impossibly harder" do you think that conversion to, say, 1st edition D&D, would fall? Will the sentence I bolded in your quote above be something that could convert to older editions easily with specific granted boons, or would I have to completely convert the entire mythic ruleset?
MWA HA HA HA HA!
Also, if you've got any interest in demons or the Abyss at all but hate hate hate Mythic... I still suspect you'll quite like Wrath of the Righteous.
This is what still has me intrigued by WotR. I don't run APs but do make use of their content in my homebrew River Kingdoms (and beyond!) game. I don't plan on running a mythic game but do plan on having level 20 PCs descend into the Worldwound and put a stop to a powerful demon's machinations. Oops, I may have said too much.
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Creative Director
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The mythic rules are VERY important to Wrath of the Righteous. More so to the GM, actually, than the players...
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself... Several key elements will be about the mechanics of exactly HOW the PCs AND the bad guys are gaining mythic power.
I'm still on the fence about this AP. I'm excited to learn more about the Worldwound, so that's a strong positive. But I convert the APs to another edition rather than using the Pathfinder rules, and it's really hard to tell whether that's going to be possible with Wrath of the Righteous or not.
In my imagination, it seems like the mythic ruleset is comparable to the way I recently ran the original Ravenloft adventure. When the PCs enter the castle, Strahd is invincible and is just toying with the PCs. Then, as they explore the castle, they find various items of power (which I compare to gaining the mythic abilities) which allow the PCs to bypass some of Strahd's specific protections. When they finally face Strahd in the crypts, with those protections gone, it's a tough but winnable fight instead of certain death. I'm not sure if that's really a valid comparison, but if I knew it was, I'd be completely on board. Or is that way too simplistic?
James (hopefully you'll see this post) - I pose this question to you as the developer for this AP... For this AP compared to prior Paizo APs: Where on the scale between "just as easy" to "nearly impossibly harder" do you think that conversion to, say, 1st edition D&D, would fall? Will the sentence I bolded in your quote above be something that could convert to older editions easily with specific granted boons, or would I have to completely convert the entire mythic ruleset?
First off... If you're converting the entire AP to another edition, you're doing a fair amount of rebuilding and rewriting anyway. In that case, re-scaling the encounters to match your game should mean that the Mythic elements aren't as significant.
If you're using a previous edition, those editions already have solutions for super high-level play, so you might be able to simply substitute "bonus levels" for the mythic tiers to model the sudden upswing of power whenever the PCs in the adventure are expected to gain a mythic tier.
"Wrath of the Righteous" is in some ways a VERY first edition game—it's about the PCs going to kill a demon lord. And one of the best (arguably THE best) 1st edition adventures, Queen of the Spiders, was about this very same thing.
Were I in the habit of converting Pathfinder APs to 1st edition AD&D, I'd probably say that converting Wrath would be pretty much just as easy as converting any other AP, honestly. I'd probably want to be familiar with how mythic works so that I know how I'd like to interpret things for the conversion... but even if I wasn't, the actual framework of the Adventure Path will still be something you can read as a storyline and know how to make the changes you need to make.
First off... If you're converting the entire AP to another edition, you're doing a fair amount of rebuilding and rewriting anyway. In that case, re-scaling the encounters to match your game should mean that the Mythic elements aren't as significant.
If you're using a previous edition, those editions already have solutions for super high-level play, so you might be able to simply substitute "bonus levels" for the mythic tiers to model the sudden upswing of power whenever the PCs in the adventure are expected to gain a mythic tier.
"Wrath of the Righteous" is in some ways a VERY first edition game—it's about the PCs going to kill a demon lord. And one of the best (arguably THE best) 1st edition adventures, Queen of the Spiders, was about this very same thing.
Were I in the habit of converting Pathfinder APs to 1st edition AD&D, I'd probably say that converting Wrath would be pretty much just as easy as converting any other AP, honestly. I'd probably want to be familiar with how mythic works so that I know how I'd like to interpret things for the conversion... but even if I wasn't, the actual framework of the Adventure Path will still be something you can read as a storyline and know how to make the changes you need to make.
James, thanks for the quick response. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. I remember "Queen of the Spiders" fondly - I ran a group through it during college - so that analogy helps a lot. And comparing to that adventure will probably help a lot to build the enthusiasm for a couple of my players.
I'm very glad to hear that the framework of the adventure will make most of it clear. Currently, I have copies of the Pathfinder monster books to aid my conversions, and I've been able to get by without having to consult the other rule books very often at all - except for some weather and other environmental effects in the last couple of APs, where I've needed to do some quick math to see "how tough is this intended to be for the PCs"...
Okay, count me in!
If this campaign happens, I can almost guarantee it. :)
Ouch though, if the rules are that hard to go without. That does throw a hurdle in the way of this campaign starting.
We're in EXACTLY the same boat... very much looking forward to this AP, very much against having to adopt a new rule set to do it. If the Mythic rules are as locked in as seems to be the case, it might be time to suspend the subscription and spend that $125 on something else.
I got screwed hard when 4th Ed switched over to the 'Essentials' rules. I'm not going through that again.
The mythic rules are VERY important to Wrath of the Righteous.
But the mythic element in this campaign goes beyond the raw rules—it's the adventure itself. It's easilly the most high-powered adventure path we've done yet. It'll have the most powerful monsters we've included in an AP. Several key elements will be about the mechanics of exactly HOW the PCs AND the bad guys are gaining mythic power. And the plot itself is the most over the top one we've done yet.
Nevermind. I'm sold - sold enough to give it a chance, anyway. I'm just so very leery of new editions, however they're presented.
Mythic Adventures is not a new edition of Pathfinder, and if we've given the impression that it IS a "stealth edition" then we screwed up.
No worries - I'm open to the fact that its me being gunshy more than you guys trying to sneak something by me. I've stayed away from the playtest for that very reason and its unfair of me to pronounce judgement on something I'm ignorant of.
I've just been burned too many times after huge investments in both time and money.
No worries - I'm open to the fact that its me being gunshy more than you guys trying to sneak something by me. I've stayed away from the playtest for that very reason and its unfair of me to pronounce judgement on something I'm ignorant of.
I've just been burned too many times after huge investments in both time and money.
Paizo has mentioned a few times that Mythic is not a new edition of the game. It's a subsystem aimed toward those stories that go a bit beyond what the core game can handle well (such as going up against demigods and taking on the Starstone). If it's successful, it's likely that we'll see more in the future (just as Paizo generally supports the material they create), but it's not going to replace the game as we know it.
Besides, the Pathfinder RPG is incredibly popular. It would seem silly to jeopardize that popularity by stealth-introducing a new edition of the game. When and if Paizo decides to work on a new edition of the game, I'm quite sure we'll all be the first to know about it. :)
No worries - I'm open to the fact that its me being gunshy more than you guys trying to sneak something by me. I've stayed away from the playtest for that very reason and its unfair of me to pronounce judgement on something I'm ignorant of.
I've just been burned too many times after huge investments in both time and money.
Paizo has mentioned a few times that Mythic is not a new edition of the game. It's a subsystem aimed toward those stories that go a bit beyond what the core game can handle well (such as going up against demigods and taking on the Starstone). If it's successful, it's likely that we'll see more in the future (just as Paizo generally supports the material they create), but it's not going to replace the game as we know it.
Besides, the Pathfinder RPG is incredibly popular. It would seem silly to jeopardize that popularity by stealth-introducing a new edition of the game. When and if Paizo decides to work on a new edition of the game, I'm quite sure we'll all be the first to know about it. :)
Call me crazy, but that would seem to me to be easily fixed by simply including post-20 content and leveling. Even if classes were limited to 20 levels, maxing out one class and picking up another would be easy enough to do - hit die keep accumulating, saves keep improving, BAB keeps rising... higher level content seems fairly intuitive enough to me without having to add a subset of 'special' rules much less altering existing characters at lower levels.
To me, if its a set of rules that I can't use my existing characters with without extensive modification and learning an entire new ruleset as James outlined above, that's a new edition.
Call me crazy, but that would seem to me to be easily fixed by simply including post-20 content and leveling.
That might be the case, but Paizo's opted to go in a different direction, one where Mythic isn't about post-20 play but rather a full-spectrum experience. Many gamers have requested that Paizo explore the concept of epic play and this is it. It's going to be a different approach than in the 3.5 days where it was all about post level 20 play, though. Whether or not this new approach is a success, the Mythic Adventures book and the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path will tell.
To me, if its a set of rules that I can't use my existing characters with without extensive modification and learning an entire new ruleset as James outlined above, that's a new edition.
Fair enough. It's a matter of perception, then. I don't see Mythic as a new edition. You do. The fact remains, though, that it's not Pathfinder RPG 2nd Edition but rather a subsystem for the current version of the game. A subsystem that, once Wrath of the Righteous is done, might show up occasionally to satisfy those gamers who like the concept (if it's successful enough, that is). With the exception of those occasional Mythic offerings, it's back to good ol' Pathfinder RPG. At least that's my impression based on the answers Paizo have given whenever the question has come up.