How entrenched will the Mythic rules be in Wrath of the Righteous?


Wrath of the Righteous

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Thanks for the reply, James! I hope that my post didn't give the impression that I expect further expansion and level-cap bumps to become the "norm" for Paizo; I don't expect that in the least! I was merely curious as to some aspects of Mythic as a system. Honestly I'm glad to hear that there are not any plans for the Mythic system to follow in the footsteps of the "MOAR POWA! HA HA HA!" model. I've personally never been into the idea of playing full-on gods; I'm perfectly happy stopping at thumping a demon lord on his sorry rump!

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
All of the demon lords I'll be statting up for Wrath of the Righteous and some other upcoming projects are from the 30 or so core Demon Lords of Golarion.

Is Abraxas going to be one of them? Please say yes. Nocticula is pretty much a given right?


Hey James....or anyone that might know.

At what level in this AP do the characters become Mythic?

Also I want to throw in my support for this AP and Mythic rule set. I read the play test version and while I have minor issues with somethings I like the general ideas presented in the playtest. If you guys don't 'fix' the minor issues I have I can do it rather easily myself.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Atrocious wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
All of the demon lords I'll be statting up for Wrath of the Righteous and some other upcoming projects are from the 30 or so core Demon Lords of Golarion.
Is Abraxas going to be one of them? Please say yes. Nocticula is pretty much a given right?

We'll see!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

John Kretzer wrote:

Hey James....or anyone that might know.

At what level in this AP do the characters become Mythic?

Also I want to throw in my support for this AP and Mythic rule set. I read the play test version and while I have minor issues with somethings I like the general ideas presented in the playtest. If you guys don't 'fix' the minor issues I have I can do it rather easily myself.

The PCs will become mythic at about...

Spoiler:
5th level or thereabouts. At the end of the 1st adventure, pretty much.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Taken from a Golarion perspective, the only real logical expansion beyond Mythic is Divine—rules for playing gods and for fighting deities and such. I'm not so sure that's an expansion anyone's eager to see us do... in house our out of house.

I now one guy who wants to see that.... This is in my Kingmaker campaign, and he's only 5th level so far, so it's not relevant. However, once he's a king, and they're through that path, I'm probably going to have to come up with what goes on inside the Starstone Cathedral in my campaign. This player has said that it's always been his goal to have one of his characters become a god, and now he's playing in a setting that has very clear historical precedent for how mortals become gods.

Of course, the obvious thing to do is say "you see a flash of light; make a new character", which is probably what happens to most who go into the Starstone Cathederal. (It's like playing GURPS Ogre.) But, that wouldn't be very satisfying to him....


James, thanks for being so involved in this thread. The discussion is quite fascinating. I too had been wondering about Mythic Rules (leaning on the side of liking them). After reading everything I am decidedly on the side of Mythic and I'd like to thank you at Paizo for creating such a versatile system.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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No problem!

One of the (many) tasks that I feel "Wrath of the Righteous" needs to accomplish is to provide proof of concept for Mythic Adventures.

The hardcover itself is fine and good, but without us also putting our money where our mouth is and giving an immediate example of how to build an entire campaign based on mythic elements... the hardcover is nothing more than another book of options that would and could rightly be called power creep.

But by showing that using these rules can create brand new storylines that, when the powers available in Mythic Adventures are taken into account, actually ENHANCE the story rather than simply being a power-boost to PCs, I hope that we'll be able to convince a lot of folks of the viability of Mythic Adventures as a legitimate GM storytelling tool, and NOT just as a "shopping list" of new powers for PCs.


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James Jacobs wrote:

One of the (many) tasks that I feel "Wrath of the Righteous" needs to accomplish is to provide proof of concept for Mythic Adventures.

The hardcover itself is fine and good, but without us also putting our money where our mouth is and giving an immediate example of how to build an entire campaign based on mythic elements... the hardcover is nothing more than another book of options that would and could rightly be called power creep.

But by showing that using these rules can create brand new storylines that, when the powers available in Mythic Adventures are taken into account, actually ENHANCE the story rather than simply being a power-boost to PCs, I hope that we'll be able to convince a lot of folks of the viability of Mythic Adventures as a legitimate GM storytelling tool, and NOT just as a "shopping list" of new powers for PCs.

This sort of ideology is what attracts me to paizo as a company, I know that you guys will continue to strive to be even greater with each new product line - you're willing to continue to take risks. So I think you've pretty much earned my money, James! Take it!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

But by showing that using these rules can create brand new storylines that, when the powers available in Mythic Adventures are taken into account, actually ENHANCE the story rather than simply being a power-boost to PCs, I hope that we'll be able to convince a lot of folks of the viability of Mythic Adventures as a legitimate GM storytelling tool, and NOT just as a "shopping list" of new powers for PCs.

Ye gods, James. Every single time I read something new about this AP and the Mythic rules in general, I want both of them in my hands that much more. I'm salivating over here.

I can't even say how happy it makes me to see that the reasons behind this stuff are, well, basically what you've said they are. In every system I've ever played in, from tabletop to LARP to videogames, I always want the story to be the excuse for the rules, not the other way around, and to me, it shines through loud and clear that's your mission on this one.

I guess what I'm getting at here is...is it August yet?

Grand Lodge

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I am REALLY looking forward to this AP! When I finish KingMaker, I'm definitely running it. You had me at fighting demons. :D


James Jacobs wrote:

No problem!

One of the (many) tasks that I feel "Wrath of the Righteous" needs to accomplish is to provide proof of concept for Mythic Adventures.

The hardcover itself is fine and good, but without us also putting our money where our mouth is and giving an immediate example of how to build an entire campaign based on mythic elements... the hardcover is nothing more than another book of options that would and could rightly be called power creep.

But by showing that using these rules can create brand new storylines that, when the powers available in Mythic Adventures are taken into account, actually ENHANCE the story rather than simply being a power-boost to PCs, I hope that we'll be able to convince a lot of folks of the viability of Mythic Adventures as a legitimate GM storytelling tool, and NOT just as a "shopping list" of new powers for PCs.

Overall, I have not been a fan of the adventure paths but I plan on purchasing this series just to see how to integrate Mythic Adventures into a campaign.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If I run Wrath of the Righteous, it will be using Savage Worlds, so the whole mythic/not mythic issue will not trouble me in the slightest, haha! :D

Scarab Sages

TerraNova wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

MWA HA HA HA HA!

Also, if you've got any interest in demons or the Abyss at all but hate hate hate Mythic... I still suspect you'll quite like Wrath of the Righteous.

Well, more of a devil-fan myself, but the Worldwound has long been a sore point to me (see another thread way back ;) ), and the idea of finally seeing some material on this is really quite welcome.

In short: Mythic + Worldwound - "will mixing cola with natto taste as horrible as it sounds?" :)

I do have an awesome character pitch for a cleric of Asmodeus for the World Wound AP. My gm should love the anti-hero approach I will take for it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I have to admit I'm looking forward to seeing more material on demons, especially tackling such a massively Abyssal semi-realm as the World Wound and what lies on the other side.

However, most of the games I'm in or run aren't mythic... and one of my major two groups isn't very interested in mythic, I'm a bit apprehensive about needing to convert the bestiary and the cool NPC stat blocks and especially the bestiary (because monsters are awesome;) to regular PF rules.

I'll admit I had some trouble absorbing the Mythic ruleset. I'd start reading the playtest and for some reason the implications of what half the rules meant just kind of slid off my brain like water off a duck. But then, I'm not a rules-y person. It took me a long time to really absorb the 3.5 ruleset to the point where it's instinctive instead of rules I need to remember.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

I get it that folks don't like to buy new product. We DO try hard to make it easy on folks, by doing things like putting the entire contents of the rulebooks up online for free in the PRD, or by reprinting full stat blocks for non-core creatures in full in the adventure to minimize the amount of books you need to buy or have at the table.

But Paizo is first and foremost a business. We WANT folks to buy all of our books, because that allows us to not only stay in business, but to be rewarded for our hard work.

Just as a brief aside, one of my players recently commented that he truly liked the fact that Paizo puts its books up on the PRDs because it allows him to playtest the game before purchasing the book. As he's purchased many game systems over the years and not played some of them, he's gotten gunshy - especially as he's currently unemployed (as part of the dick move by the management of Hostess that also killed the Twinkie - yes, he was one of the shippers who got those Twinkies to you guys!)

He even said he felt Paizo's decision to do this reflected well on them and contrasts them favorably compared to WotC and their current D&D version (and he plans on trying to give away his 4th ed. books, especially as I refuse to even look at the system to run it).

So in short, sir, please tell your superiors that the PRDs are a superb idea... and help increase sales. Heck, I own all your core rulebooks and still use the PRDs to find stuff quickly! ;)


You say this...

James Jacobs wrote:

We didn't decide to do the Wrath of the Righteous AP because we wanted to support Mythic Adventures.

...but then you say this.

James Jacobs wrote:

One of the (many) tasks that I feel "Wrath of the Righteous" needs to accomplish is to provide proof of concept for Mythic Adventures.

The hardcover itself is fine and good, but without us also putting our money where our mouth is and giving an immediate example of how to build an entire campaign based on mythic elements... the hardcover is nothing more than another book of options that would and could rightly be called power creep.

Call me crazy, but the latter part rings a bit truer to me.

I love Pathfinder. I love everything about it, from the availability of the rules online to the AP's to the direct interaction with fans and customers on these forums. But what most drew me to Pathfinder after I had all but given up on modern RPG's was the certain knowledge that they were built on existing established rules, that I would never get the old 'bait and switch' where I committed fully, financially and with passion to one thing, only to have a new thing come out that I would be forced to embrace if I wanted to keep playing.

Mythic rules are an entirely new rule set for players level 1-20. An entirely new rule set, and one that as stated by devs isn't compatible with the characters I have built and loved. Mythic adventures can't be played by those characters and those characters can't be built using Mythic rules. Its a new rule set. An 'upgraded one'. One I'm going to have to learn to use if I want to play the next AP that I'm to recieve as part of my on-going subscription.

I didn't subscribe to the AP's because I wanted new rule sets that are incompatible with my existing characters. This isn't additional rules for fleet battles or caravans - it doesn't enhance what exists as has happened in other AP's before, it replaces it. I never wanted to have my Pathfinder rules replaced and 6 months and @ $150 is too much time and money for something I never wanted. So I will be cancelling my AP subscription, and if the new incompatible rule set filters its way into modules or other materials I'm considering subscribing for, that will make my decision there as well.

And it'll break my heart, because I bought in hard with Pathfinder, certain they would never do this.

Just the way I did with 3.4 before 4th Ed.

Just the way I did with 4th Ed. before 'Essentials'.

Just the way I did with Essentials before 5th Ed.

More fool me, I suppose.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:

Mythic rules are an entirely new rule set for players level 1-20. An entirely new rule set, and one that as stated by devs isn't compatible with the characters I have built and loved. Mythic adventures can't be played by those characters and those characters can't be built using Mythic rules. Its a new rule set. An 'upgraded one'. One I'm going to have to learn to use if I want to play the next AP that I'm to recieve as part of my on-going subscription.

Just out of curiosity where did you see this? Because everything I've read including the play test implies that the mythic rules functions more as a set of templates that are laid on top of existing characters not complete 1-20 rebuild rules.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:

Mythic rules are an entirely new rule set for players level 1-20. An entirely new rule set, and one that as stated by devs isn't compatible with the characters I have built and loved. Mythic adventures can't be played by those characters and those characters can't be built using Mythic rules. Its a new rule set. An 'upgraded one'. One I'm going to have to learn to use if I want to play the next AP that I'm to recieve as part of my on-going subscription.

Actually that's not true, and I'm not sure where you got the "isn't compatible" part from. Mythic tiers are an "add-on" to a PC, not a "replacement". The basic chassis of your character remains the same, and you progress both ordinary levels and mythic tiers. Think of mythic tiers as a progressive templates for PCs. You're dual-classing/gestalting an ordinary Bard and your mythic tiers. The latter does not replace the former, because mythic tiers don't advance via XP.

Heck, mythic tiers can come and go, representing tropes such as deities/powers "boosting" their champions temporarily to overcome some mega powerful threat. Also, "normal" PCs can face "mythic" threats, say a bunch of ordinary characters facing a legendary hydra that's something more than just advanced template slapped on the top.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay. I have downloaded and looked through the Mythic rules (though I decided against making suggestions in it as I'm not sure how handy it would be to have Mythic upgrades to magic item creation or construct building). Nothing in them says "you have to do this instead of that."

Mythic appears to be a secondary structure that enhances the existing one. You can have a Level 10 Wizard with 1 Mythic level. He will fundamentally be the same as a regular Level 10 Wizard with the exception he has some extra enhancements that would increase his effectiveness and potency.

He doesn't require different spells or the like. If he gains another level of Wizard he uses the Pathfinder rules. But he has some extra abilities.

One way to look at it is as if he took a Prestige Class... or was a non-standard Race. He's still a Wizard... he's just got different abilities. Thus you don't revamp everything.

That said? I was ambivalent on the rules. There were cool things in it. There were things I didn't like in it. But that's the way it is in all game systems.


atheral wrote:
Wiggz wrote:

Mythic rules are an entirely new rule set for players level 1-20. An entirely new rule set, and one that as stated by devs isn't compatible with the characters I have built and loved. Mythic adventures can't be played by those characters and those characters can't be built using Mythic rules. Its a new rule set. An 'upgraded one'. One I'm going to have to learn to use if I want to play the next AP that I'm to recieve as part of my on-going subscription.

Just out of curiosity where did you see this? Because everything I've read including the play test implies that the mythic rules functions more as a set of templates that are laid on top of existing characters not complete 1-20 rebuild rules.

Okay, this is in response to both you and Gorbacz - I need to acknowledge that I have not downloaded the rules and never had any intention to - that is a pretty big mea culpa when it comes to my frustration with th apparent changes. Earlier in this thread (don't know if it got deleted or if its still there) it was asked whether existing characters could play through the AP using the current ruleset instead of the mythic rules, and it was stated that that would only be possible with extensive re-writes, that it was not written for characters created using the normal rules.

Reading the explanations above, it seems that I misinterpretted that to mean that the existing rules wouldn't be used, would be replaced by the Mythic ruleset rather than intuiting that what he meant was that existing characters would need the 'boost' of a mythic template which is a completely different thing. A confusion of presuming an 'either/or' based on what was said rather than an 'in addition to'.

If that is indeed the case, as it seems to be, then I'm going to reserve judgement and continue my subscription to see exactly how it plays out. As I said, I love Pathfinder and want to continue to enjoying their products for many years... I just live in dread of what has happened to me with every RPG I have ever enjoyed from the many incarnations of D&D to White Wolf's World of Darkness setting... I want, I need Pathfinder to be different.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, I can easily see another method of altering things so you can do this AP without altering the encounters too much: eliminate XPs.

Instead, level up your characters so they're within one or two of the CR of the encounters. And then allow level 20 characters to take a Prestige class or a second class to level beyond 20 so they are powerful enough to face those final encounters.

It's been said that information would be provided to run the AP as a non-Mythic adventure. That probably means you only have to strip out boss-monsters which might have Mythic levels of their own.

However, do note that you're complaining about an AP that isn't published yet and stating you will not purchase a supplement that also is not published. Why not just wait and see? Seeing Mythic will be available as a PRD, you'll be able to view the rules before buying them... and can thus decide at that point.

Admittedly, your complaining about Mythic is quite similar to my own complaints about 4th Edition D&D - that said, if you have that gut feeling that Mythic is that bad? Then stick to your guns. I am perfectly happy having stuck to my own concerning 4th Ed. D&D... and have no regrets. Heck, because of that I ended up playing Pathfinder. ;)

The drawback is that you'll likely not be able to play this AP. But I very much doubt a few naysayers would result in the AP being cancelled (as they can't just do this without Mythic rules unless you just want to seal the evil in a can through a deus ex machina).

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Wiggz, I think you're making a wise choice based on your perspective. By continuing your subscription and just taking a look you're going to have a better perspective than any one can give you over a message board.

Its also a mature approach. And I commend you for it.

I don't speak for Paizo, but every core rule book (which Mythic certainly will be) eventually appears on the Paizo PRD. You'll be able to look them over for yourself, plus you'll have the Wrath of the Righteous AP to look at and give those rules some practical context.

I respect your concern, but I think you've made a thoughtful and considered decision.


Good choice, Wiggz. As with any rulebook, take what you need, ignore what you don't. I personally use very little of the Ultimate races book, but use almost the entirety of all the other hardbacks. doesn't mean my game changed at all. :)

And I think Mythic is brilliant. I've no idea if I'll use it. But I know someone will, and it will make their game better. And that means it was a wise choice by Paizo to craft it.


Jim Groves wrote:

Wiggz, I think you're making a wise choice based on your perspective. By continuing your subscription and just taking a look you're going to have a better perspective than any one can give you over a message board.

Its also a mature approach. And I commend you for it.

I don't speak for Paizo, but every core rule book (which Mythic certainly will be) eventually appears on the Paizo PRD. You'll be able to look them over for yourself, plus you'll have the Wrath of the Righteous AP to look at and give those rules some practical context.

I respect your concern, but I think you've made a thoughtful and considered decision.

I've been looking forward to Wrath of the Righteous for a very long time - not just the specific AP but the theme as well - in large part due to the fact that I have a character who is quite literally perfect for it... to be told that the AP was finally here but I couldn't use my character was a kick in the gut. If I was wrong in my interpretation of what was said, and I can indeed play through it and use the character I've been holding on to for just such a challenge, then I'll be the first open back here to recant my entire statement.

Adding a template and a handful of complimentary abilities is a very minor thing - I'm hoping I discover that that is all that's involved and the build nor the story behind my character has to get thrown out the window.

Shadow Lodge

That is 100% all that's involved. Mythic lies comfortably on top of your character sheet and, if the playtest is any indication, is fairly simple to remove/re-add.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Just so folks know... you CAN run Wrath of the Righteous with non-mythic characters. We'll be providing some advice in each foreword on how to do so (with the exception of the 1st one, really, since that one's already more or less non-mythic), and your GM will have to do some work in de-powering some of the monsters and/or will need to give out more XP than normal to keep you on the "super-fast-track," but it should still work without mythic characters.

Not only will there be some advice in each adventure's foreword, but I'll be here to offer advice as well. Well... not HERE here, but on the boards here. And there'll be other posters providing help as well.

But yeah. Mythic Adventures is not a rules replacement as much as it is a book-length template for characters and monsters and adventures.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Personally I think everyone should buy at least the first issue of the Adventure Path just for the foreword... ;)


I'm starting to think that many of the people who are opposed to the mythic rules simply have the wrong idea of what they're all about.

No, I'm not trying to imply that people who have thoroughly researched mythic are automatically going to like it. I'm just saying that this is the impression I'm getting. No offense intended.


Kajehase wrote:
Personally I think everyone should buy at least the first issue of the Adventure Path just for the foreword... ;)

That was your reward for coming up with the title of the adventure path?

Shadow Lodge

Heine Stick wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
Personally I think everyone should buy at least the first issue of the Adventure Path just for the foreword... ;)
That was your reward for coming up with the title of the adventure path?

He got a rulebook signed by most of the staff, I believe.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Yup; a signed copy of the Inner Sea World Guide, plus a special thanks in the foreword to the first one, plus bragging rights!


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That rocks mightily. :)


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Well, better use some of those bragging rights.

Heine Stick wrote:
That rocks mightily. ;)

Indeed it does. :D

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Kajehase ... first the Deluge, then IKEA, and now this... Somebody needs to invade Sweden urgently and sort this out.


A general question about the mythic rules--will there be guidelines for rebuilding animal companion/eidolon/mount stats? Because while my mythic druid/cavalier/whatever may, as a member of a party of mythic heroes, be able to take on a powerful demon lord, I feel that his animal buddy might get swatted aside like a fly.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

kputnam wrote:
A general question about the mythic rules--will there be guidelines for rebuilding animal companion/eidolon/mount stats? Because while my mythic druid/cavalier/whatever may, as a member of a party of mythic heroes, be able to take on a powerful demon lord, I feel that his animal buddy might get swatted aside like a fly.

The Mythic Rules do indeed have options for animal companions and mounts and eidolons to gain some measure of mythic power along with you. That's covered in Mythic Adventures, though, not in the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path.


James Jacobs wrote:
kputnam wrote:
A general question about the mythic rules--will there be guidelines for rebuilding animal companion/eidolon/mount stats? Because while my mythic druid/cavalier/whatever may, as a member of a party of mythic heroes, be able to take on a powerful demon lord, I feel that his animal buddy might get swatted aside like a fly.
The Mythic Rules do indeed have options for animal companions and mounts and eidolons to gain some measure of mythic power along with you. That's covered in Mythic Adventures, though, not in the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path.

Thanks very much, and thanks for the quick response. Now I won't be nearly as hesitant to play a saurian shaman and flood the universe with dinosaurs!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TerraNova wrote:


In short: Mythic + Worldwound - "will mixing cola with natto taste as horrible as it sounds?" :)

Uuuuuuugh. Natto.

::shudders::

Surely it can't be that bad.

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