So, I have a witch in my Kingmaker game, and I'm honestly afraid of him. His abilities are crippling and it essentially makes it impossible to bring a single creature as a boss.
The hex of misfortune is ridiculous, forcing a creature to roll a dice twice. I know you get a will save, but most creatures have crappy will saves.
Basically he leads with you get -2 to saves hex, misfortune hex, then starts casting crippling spells, like blindness/deafness.
Idk, I might be imagining things, but I am absolutely dreading combat with this guy.
We faced the Stag Lord in Kingmaker, and he absolutely devestated the guy within two rounds. It just feels like I have to plan encounters around him, instead of the party.
They are KINGS of single target combat. Cackle has a short range, and imo draws attention. Make the mooks archers and at least plink away. Make her spread those hexes around.
Give the enemies better Will saves.
Bam, problem mitigated.
Or if you want to target the source directly, send a swarm of little guys after him with something dangerous enough that he has to deal with them, but not so dangerous that it's certain death.
Maybe a group of those pygmie whatever thingies with a dangerous poison (Something that deals Int damage would scare the piss out of him) on some pointy stick that does almost no damage.
Would only really work once or twice before he wised up or got mad, but it'd spare a boss or two from his tender affections.
Or just make things not close into melee range with him as much.
Heh, what might be funny is a small army of Sap Master Rogues who have through the roof Stealth so he won't find 'em. Tell him he wakes up 10 minutes later and the battle's over. For added lulz, combine the two, Poisoner/Sap Master with an Id Moss that's been changed to Injury based.
It feels like you have to plan encounters around the witch, and it forces you to never have a boss stand on his own as the hexes will cripple any foe.
I've had other parties, and had a single cleric hold his own for several rounds. Now I wouldn't ever do that.
Step 1, houserule Cackle so that it can't extend any hexes beyond their duration if a save is made. So Misfortune only lasts one round if they save, no matter what.
Step 2, cheat. "Oh he made his save". As long as you are rolling behind the screen you can have any enemy fail or make their save as you see fit. It's not cheating if you're doing it for game dramatics.
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dealing with a witch? I suggest going the traditional way, and burning them.
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You should be happy that your player plays with those hexes, i have a witch in my RotRL game and the sleep and frozen tomb hexes are very very troublesome (especially when coupled with split and accursed hex), this witch doesn't really need his spells, his hexes do most of the job.
Well, Hex Ward may be a good start if the bad guys know the witch is coming.
Overall though, I'd be more likely to recommend adding in enemies. Witches are certainly devastating against single creatures, but they need a few turns to set things up on one. Having a few more minions to help back up the BBEG might do nicely.
Truth be told, I don't think encounters with a single enemy tend to go over that well in the first place, witch or not. YMMV on that though.
In addition, those hexes are 30 foot range, meaning if the boss is being targeted, they shouldn't have too much difficulty in getting back at them. Strong debuffs aside, a witch can still be attacked like any other caster, except they have to be that much closer to use most of their best abilities.
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Mind affecting hexes are defeated by plants, constructs, some undead, and anyone else who is immune to mind affecting effects.
Keep out of the 30 foot range.
Have a luck effect in place to combat misfortune.
Remove the witches line of sight so they can't target.
Avoid single foe combats.
Actually only very few are. Only 3 out of APG and none out of the UM book are mind-affecting as not all illusions are mind-affecting.
Witches are hosed for mobility, as they rely on their cackle.
Make a combat a running combat (ie., the players are chasing a runaway caravan.. or a wyvern has grabbed their halfling..
Silence.
Fog. You can only target what you can see. Use a fog (obscuring mist) to start the combat at close range and watch the witch.. quit cackling.
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Witches are hosed for mobility, as they rely on their cackle.
Make a combat a running combat (ie., the players are chasing a runaway caravan.. or a wyvern has grabbed their halfling..Silence.
Fog. You can only target what you can see. Use a fog (obscuring mist) to start the combat at close range and watch the witch.. quit cackling.
Silence doesn't work because the cackle has no audible or visual components required. You don't actually need to hear or see the cackling witch for her to affect you with it, you only need to be within range.
It's not really fudging if you give them the Feats Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Whatever the Reflex Save one is.
Silence doesn't work because the cackle has no audible or visual components required. You don't actually need to hear or see the cackling witch for her to affect you with it, you only need to be within range.Witches are hosed for mobility, as they rely on their cackle.
Make a combat a running combat (ie., the players are chasing a runaway caravan.. or a wyvern has grabbed their halfling..Silence.
Fog. You can only target what you can see. Use a fog (obscuring mist) to start the combat at close range and watch the witch.. quit cackling.
True. But it is reasonably effective against spells.
If you get caught in the Misfortune / Cackle chain, use a couple withdraw actions. Alternatively, just run away until you are able to re-engage without being hosed. Mooks can cover the escape. Re-engage once you've obtained a potion of Hex Ward.
I seem to be seeing this a lot anymore. X class wrecks single mob encounters!
Single enemy encounters are a bad idea to start with. Do some classes do better vs single target then others? Of course they do. Just like others do better at multi-target and swarms then others.
Its far from just witch though. A ranger with all their favored enemy stacked on one + favored defense + instant enemy. Or a well made paladin vs any evil boss guy.
With them they do it in hp damage over a couple rounds. With a witch she debuffs then shuts down over a couple rounds. So while it can be more jarring to see the witch take a big bad from full hp to shut down its not really any quicker then the other builds that excel at single target smack down.
Since you're playing in a kingmaker game, remember that the stag lord is an archer. (He's even depicted with a bow on the front page!)
In my game, he pelted the PCs with arrows from the backside of the fort and nearly killed three of them, while they couldn't even get within 30', which would be equally bad for your witch.
(Interestingly, the Owlbear, Dovan and even Kressle, who survived the first encounter and joined forces with her chief were not such a big problem as I expected.)
It feels like you have to plan encounters around the witch, and it forces you to never have a boss stand on his own as the hexes will cripple any foe.
I've had other parties, and had a single cleric hold his own for several rounds. Now I wouldn't ever do that.
You shouldnt have one enemy in an encounter. Ever. Seriously, the whole 'boss fight' thing is nonsense. I know its there in the adventure, change it. Its not just the witch that screws up single enemy encounters. Paladins do it too, same with wizards and other casters to a lesser degree. But in general, if the players significantly outnumber the enemies, the action economy works heavily in their favor. The fact is the GAME makes it hard to have single boss monsters. Give the boss minions, minions who are a threat to the PC. If an encounter should matter, then it should have more then one important foe. A powerful leutenant, a big stompy enforcer, whatever, just make sure there isnt just one enemy.
I'm playing a witch in a friends homebrew game, and sure I can mess up any one foe rather effectively, but if there are 8 foes all of which are dangerous, I am just contributing to the encounter by eliminating of crippling the one foe, not busting up the whole encounter.
If you get caught in the Misfortune / Cackle chain, use a couple withdraw actions. Alternatively, just run away until you are able to re-engage without being hosed. Mooks can cover the escape. Re-engage once you've obtained a potion of Hex Ward.
Just hope you don't get scarred. The witch can use their hexes on them out to a mile and also counts as having a piece of flesh for scrying.
Kolokotroni, is that character high enough to have split hex?
If you get caught in the Misfortune / Cackle chain, use a couple withdraw actions. Alternatively, just run away until you are able to re-engage without being hosed. Mooks can cover the escape. Re-engage once you've obtained a potion of Hex Ward.Just hope you don't get scarred. The witch can use their hexes on them out to a mile and also counts as having a piece of flesh for scrying.
Kolokotroni, is that character high enough to have split hex?
No we arent 10th level yet. But at 10th level the impact that normal hexes can have vs what spells can do is weighted heavily in favor of the spells. So while split hex is good, it inst going to be game breaking by any definition.
No, but there's always that 5% of auto-failing a save. So, dual slumbers per round could really wreck an encounter. My level 9 witch has a hex DC of 22/24. If I wait a round a dual misfortune a couple enemies that's just mean.
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So...
* Run away from the witch; many of those powers can only be used on you once per 24 hours. IIRC, Accursed Hex only applies if the initial attempt failed. A single Withdraw action should get you far away enough.
* Cackle not having audio components is a bit dodgy. You could make a case for house ruling that. In that case Silence becomes a reasonably fair tactic (if it's fair against wizards and clerics, it should be fair against witches, since many other hexes without audio component remain).
* Since the witch has to remain within 30ft of the victim, you could also attempt to just pound the witch into submission, preventing next round's cackling. Since the witch should be just within one Move action's distance, consider Vital Strike. This can be blocked by well-positioned martials though.
* Many of the most important hexes are mind-affecting. Not all of them, but Evil Eye, Misfortune and Slumber are. Witches have a really tough time against oozes (often through the single-target clause), swarms, undead, and especially constructs (since many constructs have some sort of magic immunity).
Mixing up some of the above... as a BBEG, have a couple of construct or undead minions; instruct them to grapple and carry off the witch, away from the combat, while you engage the martials yourself. (Yeah, that's not a solo BBEG anymore, but solo BBEGs are in trouble against multiple PCs anyway, that's not a Witch thing specifically.)
Putting the BBEG on a mount may help a bit. Once Misfortune is on, move out of range of the cackle, and next turn you're back to normal.
Misfortune is not mind-affecting.
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Magic immunity only applies to spells that affect SR. Not all spells do.
Scar blows your 30 foot range out of the water and is not mind-affecting.
Only 3 hexes are mind-affecting as I showed above. The most nasty ones actually are not.
Agony (Su): With a quick incantation, a witch can place this hex on one creature within 60 feet, causing them to suffer intense pain. The target is nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. A Fortitude save negates this effect. If the saving throw is failed, the target can attempt a new save each round to end the effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Retribution (Su): A witch can place a retribution hex on a creature within 60 feet, causing terrible wounds to open across the target's flesh whenever it deals damage to another creature in melee. Immediately after the hexed creature deals damage in melee, it takes half that damage (round down). This damage bypasses any resistances, immunities, or damage reduction the creature possesses. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save negates this effect
Death Curse (Su): This powerful hex seizes a creature's heart, causing death within just a few moments. This hex has a range of 30 feet. The hexed creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If this save is failed, the creature becomes fatigued the first round of the hex. On the second round of the hex, the creature becomes exhausted. On the third round, the creature dies unless it succeeds at a Fort save. Creatures that fail the first save but succeed at the second remain exhausted and take 4d6 points of damage + 1 point of damage per level of the witch. Slaying the witch that hexed the creature ends the effect, but any fatigue or exhaustion remains. Whether or not the saves are successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Eternal Slumber (Su): The witch can touch a creature, causing it to drift off into a permanent slumber. The creature receives a Will save to negate this effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep and cannot be woken. The effect can only be removed with a wish or similar magic, although slaying the witch ends the effect. The witch can use this ability to poison food or drink, causing those who ingest it to make a save or fall into an eternal slumber. She can only have one such dose of poison at any one time, and it loses its potency after 1 minute if not consumed. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Forced Reincarnation (Su): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Natural Disaster (Su): A witch using this hex calls down the forces of nature to wreak havoc on an area. This functions as a storm of vengeance combined with an earthquake that occurs on the second round of the effect (while acid is raining from the sky). A witch must concentrate for the duration of this effect. If disrupted, the effect immediately ends. A witch can only use this ability once per day.
rehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch's elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch's head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.
Scar (Su): This hex curses a single target touched with horrible scars of the witch's choosing, whether something as simple as a single letter on the target's forehead or blotchy, burnlike scars on his body. The target may make a Will save to resist this hex. These scars do not interfere with the target's senses or prevent it from using abilities, but may affect social interactions. The witch can user her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. They persist through disguises and shapechanging. The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range. The number of supernatural scars the witch can maintain at once is equal to her Intelligence bonus; once she reaches this limit, she must remove the scar from a current victim in order to mark another. Effects that remove curses can remove the scar.
Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target's saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Dire Prophecy (Su): The witch curses the target so he is doomed to die (Will negates). As long as the curse persists, the target takes a –4 penalty to his Armor Class and on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. While the curse persists, the witch may end it by bringing its full force upon her victim all at once. Doing so gives the victim a penalty equal to the witch's caster level to his Armor Class or on any single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. The witch must decide to apply this penalty before the roll to be modified is made. If the witch does not have line of sight to the target, the full force of the curse occurs when the GM considers it most appropriate, such as when the target is in mortal danger. A target can only have one dire prophecy upon him at a time. Whether or not the target's save against the hex is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex for 1 day. This is a curse effect.
Summon Spirit (Sp): The witch calls forth the ghost of a humanoid creature with no more than 18 Hit Dice. The ghost has its own personality and desires, but is willing to bargain with the witch, as if she had cast greater planar ally. To seal an agreement with the witch, the ghost requires life energy equal to 1 temporary negative level (this is in addition to the standard payment for the ghost's service). This negative level persists as long as the ghost remains in the service of the witch; the witch can end the agreement as a standard action, immediately removing the negative level.
Slumber and Evil Eye are only 2 in a very long list of possibilities. With scar you're vulnerable to all of those out to a mile. I simply listed scar so you can see it's not a mind-affecting effect. This list represent maybe half of the possibilities.
Also vs undead the thanatopic and threnodic metamagic feats make them susceptible to death effects and mind-affecting effects. So yeah, it all comes down to the individual build.
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She's not a witch, she's your wife!
sure, scar blows the distance portion out of the water, but really, if the witch has the time and ability to come up to you and cut off a piece of your flesh, its game over anyways.
scar is far more useful for allies. its not really a reasonable thing to assume it can be used offensively on enemies
Scar doesn't require you to cut off a piece of flesh. The witch touches you and if you fail a save you get a scar on your body. That's it. Also it's touch so with prehensile hair that gives a witch reach 10 ft. You don't need to be adjacent.
It's certainly useful to use on enemies. I see you've just never cared to do so.
How would the monster know it was misfortune'd? There are no verbal or somatic components to hexes unless stated like weather control requires an hour of dancing and chanting.
Just moving it back right away would feel more like playing chess than an RPG.
Silence doesn't work because the cackle has no audible or visual components required. You don't actually need to hear or see the cackling witch for her to affect you with it, you only need to be within range.Witches are hosed for mobility, as they rely on their cackle.
Make a combat a running combat (ie., the players are chasing a runaway caravan.. or a wyvern has grabbed their halfling..Silence.
Fog. You can only target what you can see. Use a fog (obscuring mist) to start the combat at close range and watch the witch.. quit cackling.
Not true. By definition, cackling madly is a audible component. If you can't make noise, you can't cackle, so silence is a perfectly valid counter. There was is actually a thread about this.
It makes sense in a common sense sort of way but there's no mechanical enforcement of those two interacting with each other. If that were true then you could effectively increase the range of the cackle by scaling up your voice somehow but I doubt anyone would agree to that. So, if increasing the volume of the witch's voice wouldn't extend the range then why would decreasing the volume reduce the range?
The point I'm making is the efficacy of the ability is not tied to the volume of the witch's voice. Regardless of how it plays out in game the effect is the same assuming no effects like an anti-magic field are in play.
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I love how often this topic comes up...
Congratulate your player. They beat the game!
Now ask them politely to consider toning down their character. You're in an optimization deathloop. Any efforts to counter the optimization will only either frustrate the player or make them optimize more. The only way to beat it is by talking to the player and asking them to turn it down.
This witch is going to suffer later on in Kingmaker... There was a witch in my party and the slumber hex was basically a WIN button in a lot of the early (and even some mid-level) encounters. Then we hit Vordakai. Oh dear. From then on she was still exceptionally useful and a great character, but her power level began to slip behind some of the other party members and noticeably behind the encounters. She became excellent for slow, multiple round, crowd control, but against bosses or hefty opponents became much more of a support character.
Balance in Pathfinder comes across a 20 level spread. Some classes are much, much more powerful at low levels, or mid levels, or high levels. The campaign will balance out but each session might no so much. If you party starts to rely on her powers and becomes complacent (as we did at mid-levels) they will be sorely surprised when things start to turn at higher levels...
(but since you are after advice...)
Undead are a bit of a struggle for most witches. Oozes, vermin, constructs - also somewhat tricky.
Also, consider larger numbers of low-level foes. Once a witch gets into melee he/she is probably less likely to hex single targets and instead start to make an escape. They need ALL the actions they can to make their abilities work (as people mentioned above) so distract hhimer from offensive stuff to reduce her threat.
Similarly, threaten his familiar. Actually killing it is a bit harsh, but put it in danger and you can be sure he will turn his attentions to whatever is looming over it.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/blindnessDeafness.html
Fort save is usually bad enough for a witch and you can do it from a safe distance. Got a level 3 wiz henchman? Spell Focus Necromancy?
Ah, but it specifically limits the range of the cackle mechanical benefit. I'm not sure what I would do for an effect that decreases, but doesn't stop, sound. An audible equivalent of darkness if you will.
To me, the mechanical enforcement comes from the cackle madly part. The description says you cackle, an audible component. If you can't fulfill the description, then you can't perform the ability.
You could be right, I've always had a hard time differentiating RAW and RAI. Common sense is god.