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So, invariably it's true that monks require a bit more system mastery than most melee classes, which makes them hard to play for novices. So for those of you who want to play a monk, here are my system mastery tips to ekeing out an advantage.
1.)Size is your friend.
Basically the biggest force multiplier for monks is increasing size. A 20th lvl monk's unarmed damage at large size is 4d8 (Improved Vital strike for 12d8). How do we get size mods? I'm glad you asked.
- Various spells like enlarge person, e.t.c. If you can get them (probably involving multiclassing with sorcerer with the empyreal bloodline for wis to casting, more on that later)
- Multiclass with druid for wildshape. 4 lvls of druid and the feat Shaping Focus will get you huge size critters (I recommend the allosaurus for pounce) which is two size increases to your unarmed strike. Druids also have the strong jaw spell which further increases your unarmed strike by two sizes (4 size increases so far, for those keeping track). 10 monk/10 druids do 12d8 unarmed strike damage (Improved vital strike for 36d8)
- Brotherhood of the Seal PrC, its a 1 size increase, but it's better than nothing, and its a monk PrC, nifty.
- Eldritch heritage Orc tree will net you blood of giants eventually, as above, its a 1 size increase, but nothing to sniff at.
2.)Don't be MAD, get SAD
A lot of guides will advise you to focus on strength to shore up to hit and damage, but there a couple of ways to make wisdom pull its weight (which is good because it does a lot of other things for you, AC, ki points, stunning fist DCs, e.t.c.)
- Sensei (Monk archetype), at 2nd level will give you wisdom to hit. A controversial choice given that they lose flurry, fast movement and evasion, but useful in certain builds.
- The guided hand feat, requires you to multiclass with cleric (or take 4 levels of a paladin archetype), but you can use your wisdom to hit with your unarmed strike IF it is your deities favored weapon (so far, thats only Irori).
- The guided weapon ehancement: +1 weapon enhancement only found in an early adventure module. It actually rubs me the wrong way because it is too good. Wisdom to hit and damage, as compared to the agile enhancement which is only dex to damage. If you can get your DM to spring for it, its the best choice (to put on your now cheaper amulet of mighty fists)
3.)Funky mystic Bullcrap
- Gnome Zen Koans: Bewildering Koan is a feat only gnomes (and humans, halfelves, halforcs, aasimars with the human heritage racial archetype who take the Racial Heritage (Gnome) feat) can take. Basically, you make a bluff check as a swift action, and the enemy makes a sense motive check, and if they fail, they lose their action. Hours of stunlock fun. Works best on bosses. Costs a ki point, which is a non-renewable resource (at least in the short term) unless you are a...
- Heavy Drinker: Drunken master monks have basically an unlimited source of ki, as long as they can keep drinking, and if you can get a flask of endless sake, you can do just that. Take the swift drinker trait to get a jump on the action economy (requires 18 con, so you might want to start off with 16 and get a stat boosting item).
- Qinggong monks are the masters of funky mystic bullcrap, and the archetype stacks with basically everything. If you can pull the top two off, you can then also get the ability to fire off Scorching rays basically at will. Ki leech at 12th level isn't a bad choice either.
Hmm, post has run on a bit. Tune in tomorrow for more Monk system mastery (and feel free to add your own).
prototype00
Bump. :D
I think the fact that you include a section focusing on increasing the damage dice of your attack suggests this might not be the smartest guide for new players.
You're going to steer them towards a common newbie fallacy: "lots of dice mean lots of power!"
Your weapon's damage dice add very little to your overall damage, given the opportunity cost for size increases.
Further, Vital Strike is terrible. You should absolutely not mention, as those big dice will just further tempt newbies into ruin.
Actual System Mastery would show that Vital Strike is a trap. Just taking your examples, you included a creature with pounce that, when charging, would allow you to make 6 attacks at 12d8+X, whereas you're advocating for some reason 36d8+X with Vital Strike.
I don't know, I think this venture is doomed. Monks don't need system mastery, they need to not have contradictory class features (extreme mobility with weak single hits but a whole mess of hits on a full attack). If anything, they need a system rewrite.
As it stands now, they're great for dipping, they're good in E6 or some other game that sticks to low levels, Zen Archer is awesome and Sensei is a useful and fun support chassis, but that's kind of it.
I have to agree with mplindustries: this advice is a band-aid on a broken leg.
1) Size works for all martial classes, not just monks. It also makes you easier to hit, and it makes navigating small spaces like dungeons difficult. Also, it encourages thinking that more dice = more damage, while in fact static bonuses and increasing threat range is where it is at.
2) You have to either pay a crippling feat tax, or take a rare archetype, or essentially not be a monk in order to make this work. That or be the traditional lumbering hulk of muscle in a safron robe.
3) Qinggong IS the best archetype, far and away, because it enables you to take abilities that actually work with one another.
How'bout some actual builds instead of the usual color coded list of unverifiable opinions?
If you want to guide the noobs, show them how its done....
- Eldritch heritage Orc tree will net you blood of giants eventually, as above, its a 1 size increase, but nothing to sniff at.
2.)Don't be MAD, get SAD
hmmm… can't help but point out that you suggest Eldritch Heritage (a feat chain that requires a Charisma investment – either though actual stat point purchase/advancement or through expensive equipment purchases), which is one of the few stats a monk can actually dump without losing power. Then you turn around and suggest they get SAD.
I have to agree with some of the other responses that this series of suggestions (and specifically their placement back-to-back in the series) does NOT smack of system mastery.
…That or be the traditional lumbering hulk of muscle in a safron robe.
Well... :D
…That or be the traditional lumbering hulk of muscle in a safron robe.Well... :D
LOLed.
I aim to please. :)
Unfortunately, this was one of the projects that I wasn't able to come back to for a while (distracted with other things, I'm afraid.) Most people seem to come up with the same objections, so pardon if I don't specifically mention yours.
You're going to steer them towards a common newbie fallacy: "lots of dice mean lots of power!"
Your weapon's damage dice add very little to your overall damage, given the opportunity cost for size increases.
It really does depend. Lots of dice do add up, especially if you can combine it with strength increases (wildshape, which increases your strength does this the easiest, you tell me what other class gets you huge size in 4 levels and a +6 to str?).
A druid/monk allosaurus iterative attack of 6d8 at 10th level (3 of them) and then 4d6, 3d6, 3d6 for a bite claw claw routine is nothing to be sniffed at, especially if you have 26 strength when you do it.
Further, Vital Strike is terrible. You should absolutely not mention, as those big dice will just further tempt newbies into ruin.
Agreed. I mean, there was a particular wis based build that I made that could guarantee 36d8 damage per round with it, but in all other cases, it isn't a particularly good investment.
1) Size works for all martial classes, not just monks. It also makes you easier to hit, and it makes navigating small spaces like dungeons difficult. Also, it encourages thinking that more dice = more damage, while in fact static bonuses and increasing threat range is where it is at.
True. But 4 levels of Druid I've found is the quickest way to huge size, and most classes are too wedded to their weapons to benefit from wildshape. Monks, which can unarmed strike freely as an allosaurus are the exception.
More dice=More damage is a fallacy if you're only getting say 2d8, but when you start getting the quadratic size increases (6d8, 8d8 and 12d8), I feel there is something to be said for it.
How'bout some actual builds instead of the usual color coded list of unverifiable opinions?
Well, I didn't want to toot my own trumpet too loudly, but I have made the following well received monk multiclass combinations:
Way of the Angry Bear (for all your Mnk/Drd multiclass queries, there is a wis build and a str build)
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oat1?Way-of-the-Angry-Bear-2-Bear-Fisted-Fight ing#1
Irori's Champion (Clr/Mnk/Pal/Coi) more complex perhaps, but accomplishes some pretty impressive feats AC wise and damage/to hit wise
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p7ss?Iroris-Champion-A-build-for-inclusion-in- the#1
hmmm… can't help but point out that you suggest Eldritch Heritage (a feat chain that requires a Charisma investment – either though actual stat point purchase/advancement or through expensive equipment purchases), which is one of the few stats a monk can actually dump without losing power. Then you turn around and suggest they get SAD.
Comes with trying to put all my thoughts in one place I'm afraid, there are like 4 builds worth of advice in there. My apologies for the confusion.
prototype00
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Just my thoughts...
First, if you play with optimizers, I'd steer a novice gamer far, far away from a monk. Even if you don't, I still think monk isn't the first class to look at...more like one of the last.
Monk is truly suitable only for people with the experience in the game to understand what they're getting into. By nature, they tend to be a support class...and changing that requires some significant permutations like you're talking about.
There's really nothing wrong with lots of dice of damage. It isn't an optimal way to go, but it's very dependent on the game they play in. A lot of other classes do this, too...and if you can consistently put out a lot of damage, it's definitely not a bad thing. Almost every enemy around will, in fact, die from taking too much damage.
I just don't know how to stress this too much...monks are not a beginner's class, and multiclassing a monk is the absolute worst thing you can do if you don't know exactly what you're doing...so though some of these builds may work great for the experienced gamer, they are incredibly limited in path...there's little room for playing 'the character you wanted to play', unless that is exactly it.
If I was to write a guide for actual novices, I'd make sure that they understood that straight monk, with one archetype (or just the base) is going to be a decent character as long as they understand the role...and that unless they want a very specific build with little room for customization...and likely a wildly different character than they imagined, multiclassing is their bane.
Well, Eldon, I find that I agree with most everything that you are saying. Perhaps the title was a bit rash, I did want to provide the "tricks" for getting the most out of monks, but as it turns out, that really does exclude those new to the game from the party. A sad turn of events.
prototype00
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Well, Eldon, I find that I agree with most everything that you are saying. Perhaps the title was a bit rash, I did want to provide the "tricks" for getting the most out of monks, but as it turns out, that really does exclude those new to the game from the party. A sad turn of events.
prototype00
It's still a good thread, if somewhat specialized. Incidentally, take a look at Monk of the Lotus. So sweet. :)
I have to admit that my reasons for bumping this had a lot to do with the gestalt menhir savant//monk build I was contemplating. Any further expansion would be appreciated, prototype!
I'm also dinking with a hungry ghost//sin eater inquisitor build (energy vampire themed guy, probably grabbing some shadowdancer levels eventually) and have found Soulgambit's various posts on monks very helpful.