This seems like an awfully simple question, but I can't seem to find an answer to it in the rulebooks or on these boards.
Can a sorcerer (or other spontaneous caster) teach spells that they know to a wizard (or other prepared caster) without needing to, say, Scribe a Scroll for the wizard to copy from? (And assuming the spell is on both lists, of course.)
So, let's say the sorcerer knows Fireball, which the Wizard does not have in his spellbook. Can the sorcerer basically provide the access to the spell (probably losing a spell slot for the day, the same way a scroll would be spent) and allow the Wizard to write the spell into his spellbook, for the basic cost of the spell level (in other words, 90 GP for Fireball), rather than needing to find or buy a scroll to learn it from?
It seems like a really simple question, but again, I can't seem to find anything about it.
By RAW you do actually need something like blood transcription or have the sorcerer write a scroll since sorcerers don't have spellbooks and don't have anything that the wizard can "learn" the spell from.
Huh, well that's unfortunate. Seems weird that the Sorcerer couldn't basically teach it to them without first writing a scroll of it. Especially since scrolls seem to operate a fair bit on magic being embedded into them.
As for Blood Transcription, that would be great if it didn't require killing the party Sorc :P Unless I read that wrong, it seems to imply they have to be dead before it works.
Edit: Now if you get a very helpful Sorcerer, a Wizard with Blood Transcription, a Cleric with Breath of Life, and a lot of free time...
Talk to your GM. If they want to make this easier, they can.
Right. I was just wondering if there was a way to handle it by RAW.
Thanks very much for the clarification.
By RAW, I don't think so. You could have the sorcerer and the wizard collaborate to write a scroll (the sorcerer providing the spell, the wizard providing the scribe scroll feat) and then have the wizard copy the spell on the scroll into his spellbook.
Excellent suggestion Dust. I should have thought of that. Since "scribe scroll" is a free wizard feat, this should just take time and a few gold for components.
That is an excellent suggestion :P Awesome, thank you.
Could rainman teach Tom Cruise how to count? ;)
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I'm not sure sorcerers even know how they make magic work, so it doesn't make much sense for them to teach a wizard a spell. I know that is not really RAW but that is how it has always seems to me. Frankly I don't even know why sorcerers are allowed access to the scribe scroll feat (other than for the obvious reason of game balance as they are already limited in spell choice.).
I tought that Sorcerers could scribe a scroll just as well as anyone else...?
They can if they bother to take the feat.
Since "scribe scroll" is a free wizard feat, this should just take time and a few gold for components.
Well, as much gold as creating a scroll normally takes (half of [level x CL x 25gp]) in addition to the cost of components to then write the scroll into the spellbook (level squared x 10gp).
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I guess there's this scenario of the sorcerer teaching spells to allies, but I don't see that as an issue at all.
I could envision a scenario in which a cabal of evil, spell-greedy wizards captures and imprisons sorcerers. They would keep them alive (likely cutting out their tongues and maiming their hands to prevent them from casting) while gradually bleeding them until all members of the cabal had learned all the victim's spells via Blood Transcription, then quietly dispose of them. An adventure hook might revolve around a party discovering this scheme and putting an end to it, possibly as a result of a search for a missing NPC sorcerer ally whom they'd need to rescue from this grisly fate.
RAW, the only way for a sorcerer to teach a spell to a wizard would be to use the Scribe Scroll feat, inscribe the spell onto a scroll, then hand the scroll to a wizard for copying into his spellbook.
There is the blood transcription spell, too, but that's a bit on the involuntary side.
From a "fluff" perspective...
Sorcerers are born with eldritch magical super-powers. They know how to do the things they can do, but don't really understand how it all works, except maybe in very general terms. It just comes naturally. Consequently, a sorcerer can't teach their tricks to a wizard in terms that a wizard could use.
Wizards, on the other hand, have no innate magical power: all of their powers were acquired by dilligent study, understanding of how to manipulate magical forces, and careful practice of spellcraft. They have to etch their spells into their minds each day by studying their spellbooks.
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Sorcerers have plenty of reason to scribe scrolls. First, it gives you a source of magic if you use up all your slots for the day. Secondly, you can make money if you sell your scrolls to others. Thirdly, if you have a UMD friend in the party you can hand out uses of your spells to them. It costs money, but it's not a bad solution unless you are only going to make wands.
Just of note, I do understand the flavor difference on sorcerers and wizards, so I understand how a sorcerer teaching a spell to a wizard could be seen as incompatible.
However, when wizards can basically write spells into their spellbook from scrolls (which seems to rely on the magic itself in the scroll rather than instructions of any sort, seeing as it disappears afterwards), it just seems a bit odd that having access to the spell through someone else wouldn't be enough to let them learn it. Such as:
Sorcerer: "Here, check out this fireball I can do."
*FWOOSH*
Wizard: "Hmm, so it looks like you make that work by..."
As for Sorcerers taking Scribe Scroll, I don't think I'd really want to take it for a Sorcerer of mine. You're limited to the spells you know, at which point I don't really see much need for any more of them. Handing them out to others may be nice, but again, you should already be able to do the same thing. Other party members probably have better things they could be doing rather than relying on a bunch of the same spells you have (and burning cash with each casting).
Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem terribly appealing (now, for a wizard who has possibly dozens of any given spell level to make scrolls out of, it seems much better).
Of course, just my opinion.
By RAW, I don't think so. You could have the sorcerer and the wizard collaborate to write a scroll (the sorcerer providing the spell, the wizard providing the scribe scroll feat) and then have the wizard copy the spell on the scroll into his spellbook.
Doesn't the existence of Co-operative Crafting imply that you can't pick and choose the pre-reqs from multiple helpers?
Short form is...
- One must have co-operative Crafting.
- BOTH must have skill ranks (or item creation feat).
- Other pre-reqs can come from either party.
Given the sorc would need Scribe Scroll.... Doesn't really help in the situation above.
I don't think there is a RAW way of doing it short of
a) Murder, Blood transcription, Scribe scroll.
b) Sorc having scribe scroll
With respect to watching the sorc cast it and learning that way.... Given that learning a spell from another spellbook takes an hour of study of the spell, I can't imagine it would be a quick process to work it out. Comparatively speaking, imagine that your given a design drawing of a house for an hour, vs seeing the house in 3 - 6 second flashes. How long would it take you to work out how the house is build, structural loads, wiring and plumbing. Bearing in mind your seeing the finished product and where the wiring goes is typically hidden in them. Add in that your seeing it in 3 - 6 second bursts as the fireball goes streaking past you. And probably those bursts no more than.... say.... 8 - 10 times a day before the sorc is tapped out for the day.... That doesn't sound like an easy task to me.
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By RAW, I don't think so. You could have the sorcerer and the wizard collaborate to write a scroll (the sorcerer providing the spell, the wizard providing the scribe scroll feat) and then have the wizard copy the spell on the scroll into his spellbook.Doesn't the existence of Co-operative Crafting imply that you can't pick and choose the pre-reqs from multiple helpers?
No more than the "Prone Shooter" feat (pre-errata) stopped you from firing crossbows prone.
From the magic item creation section of the book:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
What really stops the wizard with scribe spell from making a scroll with a sorcerer providing the spell is the last line:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
And that scrolls are "Spell-completion" items.
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I don't think that prevents a character with scribe scroll from collaborating with a different spellcaster with the spell to be scribed. All the requisites are being met (crafting feat, knowledge of spell); the rule specifically states the spell may be provided via a different spellcaster.
All the Co-operative Crafting feat does is allow one to do gain a circumstance bonus to the crafting check and decrease the crafting time.
Well, for some creative parsing:
That obviously means that the spell requirement needs to be met (i.e. it can't be bypassed by upping the DC by 5). That's certain.
However, the spell is still available through another spellcaster, which is noted to be allowed. So, while it is a spell-completion item, the spell requirement is still being met.
Admittedly though, I can see how it may be interpreted either way.
Edit: Incidentally, I thought I recalled reading that arcane and divine casters could actually work together on scribing scrolls, which would imply access through another spell caster is fine. Not sure where I saw that though, or if I'm remembering correctly :/
Edit 2: Wonderful!
Spell-Trigger & Spell-Completion Items
- a constant debate I've seen here on the boards and around my own gaming table (with 2 DMs we have 2 different house rules). (1) Does the *crafter* (the person with the feat) personally have to have the spell? Examples: Can a Sorcerer (with the spell) and Wizard (with the feat) team up to create a scroll of one of the Sorc's spells known?
(2) The same thing would apply towards any other combination of classes where 1 character has the creation feat and another (or multiples) have the spells
(3) Would there possibly be a question of divine vs arcane getting in the way (such as wizard with scribe scroll and cleric with flame strike)?
(4) Here's another variation: Could a sorc (or any other arcane class) teach a wizard a spell to put in his spellbook directly? Or would they be forced to go through the scroll creation route?
(5) Even trickier: could a multiclass Wiz/Sorc (say 5 & 5) transcribe their spells known into their spellbook?
Quick answer, as these have come up several times in the thread.
1) That sort of team-up works fine.
2) That sort of team-up works fine.
3) It's not a problem.
4) That's not clear, but isn't technically part of the item crafting rules.
5) No official rule for this, but I'd let him (I recall we had a discussion about that back at Wizards for 3E, and Jonathan felt it wasn't a problem).
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...Well, for some creative parsing:
That obviously means that the spell requirement needs to be met (i.e. it can't be bypassed by upping the DC by 5). That's certain.
However, the spell is still available through another spellcaster, which is noted to be allowed. So, while it is a spell-completion item, the spell requirement is still being met.
Admittedly though, I can see how it may be interpreted either way.
Edit: Incidentally, I thought I recalled reading that arcane and divine casters could actually work together on scribing scrolls, which would imply access through another spell caster is fine. Not sure where I saw that though, or if I'm remembering correctly :/
Edit 2: Wonderful!
** spoiler omitted **
Noted, and thanks for the digging. This does mean that the druid with the brew potion feat can make potions of spells that our Sorcerer knows.