paizo.com Recent Posts in Nixing Mass Combatpaizo.com Recent Posts in Nixing Mass Combat2013-01-05T14:29:50Z2013-01-05T14:29:50ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatOrthoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#502013-03-12T13:54:39Z2013-03-12T13:54:39Z<p>So gave my players their first taste of "supermen combat" last night. Went about as expected.</p>
<p>My party is level 9 - Oracle, Barbarian/Cavalier, Magus, Rogue/Psion, and Samurai - and had to defend Tatzylford from a troll attack. There were a total of 9 trolls, 4 scrags, 5 advanced trollhounds (grown to 6 HD and Large), plus one Umber Hulk (3.5 Monster Manual, run straight out of the book with minimal conversion, so approximately CR 6) and Rundtokk, a commanding officer (Troll Fighter 5 [CR 10] off PFSRD, with his ranseur swapped for a greataxe). The players had constant crossbow/shortbow fire from Tatzylford militia as well as three allies - their diplomat Akiniyi (Sorcerer 9) and her daughters Glaicyd (Inquisitor 3) and Nevarrin (Psion 3).</p>
<p>Two trolls and two trollhounds were at a standoff with Akiniyi at the bridge when the party arrived. When they began to press the attack, the scrags pounced out of the water and the trolls retreated into the woods, then returned a few rounds later with the rest of their reinforcements. The scrags were taken out with minimal losses, with only Jaekah the Barbarian getting anywhere near death (thanks to a lucky full attack + rend). Jaekah fell back to get healed, Errol the Magus cast <i>fly</i> and moved ahead, Takeshi the Samurai moved up to hold the bridge as the trolls swarmed in.</p>
<p>Lilith the Rogue then set off one of her Improbability Arrows - arrows with glass arrowheads filled with an elixir that works much like a <i>rod of wonder</i>. In this case, it created a big pit at the far end of the bridge by turning everything nonliving in the area around the struck troll ethereal. This ended four rounds later, trapping four trolls and a trollhound underground, as they kept bombing their climb checks to get out. Meanwhile the fighters are beating down on the last of the scrags, the support casters are picking off wounded scrags so they can't regen back to consciousness, and Lilith and Elegy the Oracle are looking to get into a position where they can shoot across the river as the trolls, stymied by the sudden pit appearing, are forced to double back and move through the forest to the north and south to reach the river.</p>
<p>The Umber Hulk comes out when the last third or so of the trolls remain, stomps its way up to the bridge, and starts beating on Takeshi. Rundtokk starts hucking throwing axes at Errol, who <i>slow</i>s both him and the Hulk, then <i>fireball</i>s the big group, barely missing Takeshi and finishing off several stray trolls. Akiniyi <i>haste</i>s everyone except Errol, who's flying out of range. The rest of the party picks off the remaining trolls then finishes off the Hulk. (Not a single failed save versus the <i>confusion</i> gaze all battle. Pity.) Errol flies down to engage Rundtokk in melee, then gets nailed with two greataxe crits in a row and drops deep into negatives. Takeshi throws Elegy at Rundtokk (and crits, dealing a respectable 20 damage) which gets her close enough to use <i>breath of life</i>, but it isn't enough to bring him back.</p>
<p>So final report in an 8-(or 7, since Glaicyd and Nevarrin are so far behind the others they each probably counted for half)-on-20 mini-mass combat is two near-deaths (Jaekah early on to the scrags, Takeshi to the Umber Hulk) and one death (Errol to Rundtokk). The archery cover from the allied militia really did very little, mostly just mitigating some of the trolls' regen. What it did do, however, was convince the party that yes, they are going to need <i>some</i> kind of army. What sort of army it will be, and how it'll be handled in game mechanics, remains to be seen.</p>So gave my players their first taste of "supermen combat" last night. Went about as expected.
My party is level 9 - Oracle, Barbarian/Cavalier, Magus, Rogue/Psion, and Samurai - and had to defend Tatzylford from a troll attack. There were a total of 9 trolls, 4 scrags, 5 advanced trollhounds (grown to 6 HD and Large), plus one Umber Hulk (3.5 Monster Manual, run straight out of the book with minimal conversion, so approximately CR 6) and Rundtokk, a commanding officer (Troll Fighter 5 [CR...Orthos2013-03-12T13:54:39ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatRickmeisterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#492013-03-09T08:58:43Z2013-03-08T13:46:54Z<p>...
<br />
...
<br />
Love it!!</p>
<p>Could you put it up somewhere? Would love to know more.
<br />
I wouldn't mind using the mass combat, but not all the time. I have already done the Tatzlford thing (in stages), which we liked a lot.</p>
<p>Now we're doing barbarians on Fort Drelev (Armag got away with youknowwhat) and I made every character an adversary they had to try and take out. Nobody could die (one on one would not be fair) but if they "won", they got a +2, lost a -2 (and they would be rescued by the forces supporting them = no kill).</p>
<p>Skill challenge would be SWEET.</p>
<p>Even thinking about one way to use the chase rules for one particular battle, just can't put my finger on it just yet :)</p>...
...
Love it!!
Could you put it up somewhere? Would love to know more.
I wouldn't mind using the mass combat, but not all the time. I have already done the Tatzlford thing (in stages), which we liked a lot.
Now we're doing barbarians on Fort Drelev (Armag got away with youknowwhat) and I made every character an adversary they had to try and take out. Nobody could die (one on one would not be fair) but if they "won", they got a +2, lost a -2 (and they would be rescued by the forces...Rickmeister2013-03-08T13:46:54ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatDM_aka_Dudemeisterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#482013-03-08T13:48:44Z2013-03-08T11:11:57Z<p>Last night I ran a Mass Combat as a skill challenge. </p>
<p>The bridge to the North of Drelev was controlled by barbarian forces. So I put 12 tokens down to represent the barbarians. I had the players describe the forces they brought with them (one unit per player each unit had a variable number of tokens depending on role (5 for warriors, 4 for specialists and 2 for casters) - they chose Human/Dwarven foot soldiers, Elf Archers, Centaur Archers, Erastil Clerics and Candlemere Wizards)
<br />
I had the players make Skill Checks, Attack Rolls and Saves going around the table and asking what their plans were and calling for saves during opponent's attacks. Whenever they succeeded on a check I removed an enemy token, and whenever they failed a check by more than 5 they had to choose a token to remove. If they failed a save vs the enemy attacks I got to choose what was removed).
<br />
The fun of this method is it takes up about as much time as a regular combat and I always prompted the players to describe the battle. The players had a blast as our Druid out up a magical dam so the ground troops could cross and the bard used his harp of building to put together a fallback fort that drew the boulders from the giants.</p>Last night I ran a Mass Combat as a skill challenge.
The bridge to the North of Drelev was controlled by barbarian forces. So I put 12 tokens down to represent the barbarians. I had the players describe the forces they brought with them (one unit per player each unit had a variable number of tokens depending on role (5 for warriors, 4 for specialists and 2 for casters) - they chose Human/Dwarven foot soldiers, Elf Archers, Centaur Archers, Erastil Clerics and Candlemere Wizards)
I had the...DM_aka_Dudemeister2013-03-08T11:11:57ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatRickmeisterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#472013-03-08T08:55:44Z2013-03-08T08:55:44Z<p>Or....
<br />
You could tell them this way is lame, and inform them that if that's the way they want to play it, that's the way it's going to be played.</p>
<p>You're not the only one who can scry'n'fry.. And you have a capital all alone in the open, with a family and friends... And you're in the field, ready to go after Semi-Imporant Colonel #3 ;)</p>Or....
You could tell them this way is lame, and inform them that if that's the way they want to play it, that's the way it's going to be played.
You're not the only one who can scry'n'fry.. And you have a capital all alone in the open, with a family and friends... And you're in the field, ready to go after Semi-Imporant Colonel #3 ;)Rickmeister2013-03-08T08:55:44ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatfictionfanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#462013-03-08T03:36:10Z2013-03-08T03:36:10Z<p>You could have a small army of bards following the P.C's. One of them casts invisibility sphere and the rest cast about every buff in existence on the P.C.'s. It also makes it so that they can later tell the story about how heroic the P.C's were.</p>
<p>Or you could have this small army of bards cast about every buff in existence on the P.C.'s right before they teleport to scry and die the leaders.</p>You could have a small army of bards following the P.C's. One of them casts invisibility sphere and the rest cast about every buff in existence on the P.C.'s. It also makes it so that they can later tell the story about how heroic the P.C's were.
Or you could have this small army of bards cast about every buff in existence on the P.C.'s right before they teleport to scry and die the leaders.fictionfan2013-03-08T03:36:10ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatIcyshadowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#452013-02-19T09:52:11Z2013-02-19T09:18:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Super Simplified Warfare:</b> </p>
<p>While the PCs fight key battles, their armies fight in the background. Have the General roll a d20 + Key Ability + 1/10th of Controlled Hexes. </p>
<p>This is opposed to 10 + Opposing General's Key Ability + 1/10th of Opposed controlled Hexes. </p>
<p>Fail by 5 or More: Your army takes heavy losses as your opponents use a clever tactic or ambush. Take a -2 penalty to next army roll.
<br />
Fail by less than 5: Your army loses a key location or resource. -1 penalty on next army roll.
<br />
Succeed: Your army wins a key location or defeats an enemy squad. +1 to next roll.
<br />
Critical Success: Your army wins a key location AND defeats an enemy squad. +2 to next roll. </p>
<p>Other Modifiers: </p>
<p>Player sacrifices a spell: Bonus equal to spell level sacrificed.
<br />
Players win a personal encounter or achieve a successful mission: Bonus equal to 1/2 CR of battle.
<br />
Players fighting in kingdom controlled territory: +2
<br />
Players set ambush: +2 to +5 on first round.
<br />
(In general most clever plans warrant a +2 to +5 on the round they're initiated). </p>
<p>DC Modifiers: </p>
<p>Enemy spell caster sacrifices a spell slot: Increase equal to spell sacrificed.
<br />
Players lose a mission or personal encounter (forced to retreat): DC Increase equal to half encounter CR.
<br />
Players Fighting on opponent controlled territory: +2 DC
<br />
Enemy has ambush or enact other plan: +2 to +5 to DC. </p>
<p>Now here's the kicker: </p>
<p>A battle has a Cumulative DC. So after each battle roll take the total and add it to the total gained so far.</p>
<p>Skirmish: 50 (Battle Check once a round)
<br />
Battle: 100 (Battle Check once a minute)
<br />
Protracted Battle: 150 (Battle Check once an Hour)
<br />
Major Battle: 200 (Battle Check once a day)
<br />
War: 300 (Battle Check once a week). </p>
<p>Assume an army moves with the PCs so long as the PCs aren't teleporting. </p>
<p>Missions: </p>
<p>Each battle has missions examples include: Capture a strategic point. Kill an enemy leader. Rescue soldiers. Rescue civilians. Sabotage enemy siege weapons. Destroy a defensive position.... </blockquote><p>Unless my group wants to scrap the default mass combat rules altogether, I'm either going with this or Orthos' idea!DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:Super Simplified Warfare:
While the PCs fight key battles, their armies fight in the background. Have the General roll a d20 + Key Ability + 1/10th of Controlled Hexes.
This is opposed to 10 + Opposing General's Key Ability + 1/10th of Opposed controlled Hexes.
Fail by 5 or More: Your army takes heavy losses as your opponents use a clever tactic or ambush. Take a -2 penalty to next army roll.
Fail by less than 5: Your army loses a key location or resource. -1...Icyshadow2013-02-19T09:18:14ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatredcelt32https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#442013-02-18T22:45:16Z2013-02-18T22:45:16Z<p>Let us know how that goes Orthos, I may end up going in that direction myself. I still will use armies, I will just resolve combat along predictable lines, modified by the actions of the PCs. I already had to do this once with smaller armies fighting over the stag lords fort, simply because the players and I did not know the mass combat rules yet, plus it was a very personal fight, and it seems rather cool and chess-like to roll dice and obliterate armies without some personal combat. </p>
<p>Besides it was fun to describe the PCs and enemy leaders each hacking their way through the opposing grunts to clash together in mid battlefield. :)</p>Let us know how that goes Orthos, I may end up going in that direction myself. I still will use armies, I will just resolve combat along predictable lines, modified by the actions of the PCs. I already had to do this once with smaller armies fighting over the stag lords fort, simply because the players and I did not know the mass combat rules yet, plus it was a very personal fight, and it seems rather cool and chess-like to roll dice and obliterate armies without some personal combat.
...redcelt322013-02-18T22:45:16ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatOrthoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#432013-02-18T22:56:26Z2013-02-18T15:34:45Z<p>As it is, I'm only in Chapter 2, but since I'm using Dudemeister's RRR rewrite there's going to be some mini-Mass Combat scenery occurring. I'll be attempting various little tests along the way until I find something I like, using advice here as well as stuff I've come up with on my own, and I'll report back what seems to work and what doesn't.</p>
<p>And yes, as the story unfolds enemies with the resources to learn the party's usual tactics will start coming up with counters to equip their army with... or simply fielding their own champions, equivalently armed and informed as to the party's usual tricks, to fight them off instead of risking their full forces. But that likely won't come into play until Drelev at the very earliest, Pitax more likely.</p>As it is, I'm only in Chapter 2, but since I'm using Dudemeister's RRR rewrite there's going to be some mini-Mass Combat scenery occurring. I'll be attempting various little tests along the way until I find something I like, using advice here as well as stuff I've come up with on my own, and I'll report back what seems to work and what doesn't.
And yes, as the story unfolds enemies with the resources to learn the party's usual tactics will start coming up with counters to equip their army...Orthos2013-02-18T15:34:45ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatredcelt32https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#422013-02-18T15:29:52Z2013-02-18T15:29:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">FatR wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Orthos wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
So as stated in the prior topic, my players have voted four-to-one to scrap mass combat entirely. </blockquote><p>I think this is the only correct decision regarding Kingmaker. Mass combat in this AP happens far past the point where it could conceivably happen in DnDland. At two-digit levels, massed troop formations are irrelevant next to aerial (or possibly teleporting, but while not all parties have Teleport, if you don't have some form of overland flight by 13th level, you really must be nerfing yourself intentionally) commando forces of high-level characters, that can either scatter an army before it assembles, or reduce it to nothing by repeatedly raiding its camps and killing hundreds every night. Battles between massed troop formations in the field happened once per several years in RL medieval warfare, and in high-level DnD environment they would not happen at all outside of scenarios where both sides have some sort of magical troop generators.
</p>
And even if the enemy happens to have a wave of low-level mooks to throw at PCs, unless these mooks are zombies or otherwise have unshakeable morale, they will probably scatter after realizing what they are dealing with. Mooks are people too (unless they are not, again, zombies...) and the thought of losing a half of their troop to bury a PC under the corpses won't be appealing to those in the first ranks. </blockquote><p>To a certain degree this is true, however, this really depends on if there is scrying, spies, and enemy NPCs of a level to counter them. And prep time. Counter their favorite tactics, dispel fly, things arent quite so amazing. Or you could do like the classic comic book storylines do.. when the supervillians show up en masse and are laughing as they smack a whole city's police force around.. here come the counter group of superheroes.
<p>But yeah it does break down a bit.. plus there is the difficulty of extrapolating out what magical counter-punches seasoned generals would have against power enemy spellcasters and magical units. Hell, the fact that there are lots of different flying units and teleport spells in a fantasy setting sort of throws a wrench in regular castle defenses.</p>FatR wrote:Orthos wrote:
So as stated in the prior topic, my players have voted four-to-one to scrap mass combat entirely.
I think this is the only correct decision regarding Kingmaker. Mass combat in this AP happens far past the point where it could conceivably happen in DnDland. At two-digit levels, massed troop formations are irrelevant next to aerial (or possibly teleporting, but while not all parties have Teleport, if you don't have some form of overland flight by 13th level, you...redcelt322013-02-18T15:29:52ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatOrthoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#412013-02-18T14:48:41Z2013-02-18T14:48:41Z<p>Oh I wouldn't be using mobs for the PC's army - they don't want an army at all (well minus the one guy). They want to march out there, just the five of them (and perhaps a small handful of NPCs on par with them - Mikmek, Akiros, and a small few potential others, at the moment), and wipe out an army of enemy mooks semi-singlehandedly themselves.</p>Oh I wouldn't be using mobs for the PC's army - they don't want an army at all (well minus the one guy). They want to march out there, just the five of them (and perhaps a small handful of NPCs on par with them - Mikmek, Akiros, and a small few potential others, at the moment), and wipe out an army of enemy mooks semi-singlehandedly themselves.Orthos2013-02-18T14:48:41ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatroguerougehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#402013-02-18T12:24:28Z2013-02-18T12:24:28Z<p>If you use the 3.5 mob system, remember the wonky parts of it, as grapple was THE auto-win strategy. If the party is forewarned, they should all have freedom of movement up. But do you really want units of soldiers to be ordered to sheath their weapons and grapple at the front lines? Once a player gets a look at the stat block of any allied soldiers under his command, that's what they're going to do if the chips are down and the kingdom is on the line. </p>
<p>I just used the mass combat system in my home brew campaign. It was really swingy for the armies, but the conversion of PCs into hero armies worked pretty nicely and was fast to learn and play. The damage system and the low hit points of some armies were the main offender.</p>If you use the 3.5 mob system, remember the wonky parts of it, as grapple was THE auto-win strategy. If the party is forewarned, they should all have freedom of movement up. But do you really want units of soldiers to be ordered to sheath their weapons and grapple at the front lines? Once a player gets a look at the stat block of any allied soldiers under his command, that's what they're going to do if the chips are down and the kingdom is on the line.
I just used the mass combat system in...roguerouge2013-02-18T12:24:28ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatFatR (alias of Stanislav Bartoshevitch)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#392013-02-19T12:39:28Z2013-02-17T20:55:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Orthos wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
So as stated in the prior topic, my players have voted four-to-one to scrap mass combat entirely. </blockquote><p>I think this is the only correct decision regarding Kingmaker. Mass combat in this AP happens far past the point where it could conceivably happen in DnDland. At two-digit levels, massed troop formations are irrelevant next to aerial (or possibly teleporting, but while not all parties have Teleport, if you don't have some form of overland flight by 13th level, you really must be nerfing yourself intentionally) commando forces of high-level characters, that can either scatter an army before it assembles, or reduce it to nothing by repeatedly raiding its camps and killing hundreds every night. Battles between massed troop formations in the field happened once per several years in RL medieval warfare, and in high-level DnD environment they would not happen at all outside of scenarios where both sides have some sort of magical troop generators.
</p>
And even if the enemy happens to have a wave of low-level mooks to throw at PCs, unless these mooks are zombies or otherwise have unshakeable morale, they will probably scatter after realizing what they are dealing with. Mooks are people too (unless they are not, again, zombies...) and the thought of losing a half of their troop to bury a PC under the corpses won't be appealing to those in the first ranks.</p>Orthos wrote:So as stated in the prior topic, my players have voted four-to-one to scrap mass combat entirely.
I think this is the only correct decision regarding Kingmaker. Mass combat in this AP happens far past the point where it could conceivably happen in DnDland. At two-digit levels, massed troop formations are irrelevant next to aerial (or possibly teleporting, but while not all parties have Teleport, if you don't have some form of overland flight by 13th level, you really must be...FatR (alias of Stanislav Bartoshevitch)2013-02-17T20:55:10ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combat3.5 Loyalisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#382013-01-13T06:15:43Z2013-01-13T06:15:43Z<p>Could make it into a running joke, soldiers start to complain at how super the heroes are, always taking the brunt of the fighting, the most glory on the field etc.</p>
<p>Average medium cavalry huff and puff. Their horses neigh.</p>Could make it into a running joke, soldiers start to complain at how super the heroes are, always taking the brunt of the fighting, the most glory on the field etc.
Average medium cavalry huff and puff. Their horses neigh.3.5 Loyalist2013-01-13T06:15:43ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatfictionfanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#372013-01-12T06:33:43Z2013-01-11T18:07:37Z<p>The Heros do the fighting the army is there for clean up</p>The Heros do the fighting the army is there for clean upfictionfan2013-01-11T18:07:37ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatGM_Solspiral (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#362013-01-12T06:33:57Z2013-01-11T18:02:21Z<p>Do they like chess? You could always start the game with a fewer number of pieces on the board to represent any dispatities in power then play it out. Gives the tatical (and they can gang up on you a bit) feel your 1 player wants and maybe (depending on how good at chess you are) engages everyone else. MAybe they can bring in more pawns with summons, remove pieces with blasting spells. Crap I might have to make this a thing...</p>Do they like chess? You could always start the game with a fewer number of pieces on the board to represent any dispatities in power then play it out. Gives the tatical (and they can gang up on you a bit) feel your 1 player wants and maybe (depending on how good at chess you are) engages everyone else. MAybe they can bring in more pawns with summons, remove pieces with blasting spells. Crap I might have to make this a thing...GM_Solspiral (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32)2013-01-11T18:02:21ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combat3.5 Loyalisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#352013-01-11T03:13:23Z2013-01-11T03:13:23Z<p>A great hero might tie up or rout so much of the army, that the hero army actually works on the party squad level, i.e. simple spearmen engage high level melee char. They cannot kill, shut down or effectively grapple this whirling storm of death.</p>A great hero might tie up or rout so much of the army, that the hero army actually works on the party squad level, i.e. simple spearmen engage high level melee char. They cannot kill, shut down or effectively grapple this whirling storm of death.3.5 Loyalist2013-01-11T03:13:23ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatDMFToddhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#342013-01-10T15:58:21Z2013-01-10T15:58:21Z<p>One option is to hand-wave it - the armies fight in the background while the PCs do other things (fighting the generals). </p>
<p>Or if the PCs are wanting to be studly, find a way to let them battle the armies The Advanced Bestiary has the Creature Swarm template - I don't have it, but maybe that works? Or represent a group of 12 trolls as a advanced, enlarged troll?</p>One option is to hand-wave it - the armies fight in the background while the PCs do other things (fighting the generals).
Or if the PCs are wanting to be studly, find a way to let them battle the armies The Advanced Bestiary has the Creature Swarm template - I don't have it, but maybe that works? Or represent a group of 12 trolls as a advanced, enlarged troll?DMFTodd2013-01-10T15:58:21ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combat3.5 Loyalisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#332013-01-10T07:41:51Z2013-01-10T07:41:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">fictionfan wrote:</div><blockquote> How big a moral penalty would you give a army that had it's leaders killed off an hour ago? Personally I would always train small powerful armies to fight huge armies. The only reason I can see for huge armies to hold the territory after the battle is done which is not a consideration if you are the one being attacked. </blockquote><p>Problem of being surrounded and overwhelmed though, also defeated tactically because they have the men to do whatever you want, but your elites are tied up killing their commons.
<p>So your elite inf are smacking their inf, then cop a flank charge, then reserves arrive.</p>
<p>Depends on what the system says wins.</p>fictionfan wrote:How big a moral penalty would you give a army that had it's leaders killed off an hour ago? Personally I would always train small powerful armies to fight huge armies. The only reason I can see for huge armies to hold the territory after the battle is done which is not a consideration if you are the one being attacked.
Problem of being surrounded and overwhelmed though, also defeated tactically because they have the men to do whatever you want, but your elites are tied up...3.5 Loyalist2013-01-10T07:41:51ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatfictionfanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#322013-01-09T21:18:44Z2013-01-09T21:18:44Z<p>I said only consumibles. As least they arn't as careless as a army that somehow manages to break a few hundred magic sword per day.</p>I said only consumibles. As least they arn't as careless as a army that somehow manages to break a few hundred magic sword per day.fictionfan2013-01-09T21:18:44ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatCalebTGordan (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#312013-01-11T17:58:25Z2013-01-09T20:05:16Z<p>I would immediately make it clear that I do not want that in my game if one of my players suggested that, fictionfan. </p>
<p>The first one would be nixed because they should be withdrawing funds to equip themselves instead of using straight BP, and doing that instead of building armies will have higher unrest than normal. The kingdom shouldn't have such blind faith in their leaders that a policy of magic items over armies is accepted. In fact, such a policy could easily be seen as the PCs grabbing a bunch of wealth and disappearing before the trouble starts, thus leaving the nation to the mercy of their enemies. The River Nations has had a history of that happening, so it wouldn't be wrong to think that is what they are doing.</p>
<p>The second suggestion will just make things harder on me as a GM. If the PCs created an army whose purpose was to follow them around and buff them, I would find it almost too difficult to challenge them unless I killed that little army off first. In fact, that is how I would deal with it, constant attacks on the army. If you can take out an armies support, source of morale, and spellcasting, you have won half the battle. Also, if the PCs marched around with a small army of supporters, like bards for example, it would scare away almost all of their encounters, thus a huge chunk of xp is lost. </p>
<p>Lastly, there is no garuntee that the small army of bards is going to be able to survive against a large army of anything while the PCs take on enemy leadership. They may be too busy supporting themselves while handling a large army to even help the PCs.</p>I would immediately make it clear that I do not want that in my game if one of my players suggested that, fictionfan.
The first one would be nixed because they should be withdrawing funds to equip themselves instead of using straight BP, and doing that instead of building armies will have higher unrest than normal. The kingdom shouldn't have such blind faith in their leaders that a policy of magic items over armies is accepted. In fact, such a policy could easily be seen as the PCs grabbing...CalebTGordan (RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32)2013-01-09T20:05:16ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatfictionfanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#302013-01-09T18:38:43Z2013-01-09T18:38:43Z<p>If you can you the BP to fund a army to fund the P.C's as a army? </p>
<p>I imagine that a 9th level scroll costs less then running and equipping and paying a army especially equipping them all with magic weapons. So use the BP to get some high level scrolls or other consumable items and give the other side hell.</p>
<p>or if you don't like the president that that sets hire a very small army of people who can use magic devices to buff and heal your P.C.'s. The real cool thing about King Maker is you have support.</p>If you can you the BP to fund a army to fund the P.C's as a army?
I imagine that a 9th level scroll costs less then running and equipping and paying a army especially equipping them all with magic weapons. So use the BP to get some high level scrolls or other consumable items and give the other side hell.
or if you don't like the president that that sets hire a very small army of people who can use magic devices to buff and heal your P.C.'s. The real cool thing about King Maker is you have...fictionfan2013-01-09T18:38:43ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatCaineachhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#292013-01-09T18:31:49Z2013-01-09T18:31:49Z<p>How I would handle it: Have them still manage the army but ignore the mass combat rolls.</p>
<p>Presumably you are still using the kingdom building rules. Have the players buy units per normal, with them being fairly mundane for the most part. This will get you the unit's strength. Players will move the armies arround to bring them into position as normal.</p>
<p>When you meet an enemy army, leaders gravitate towards eachother. Make every mass combat into those leaders fighting. Give bonuses to the side that has the larger army.</p>
<p>For instance:
<br />
If the players are significantly more powerful than the enemy, they may get a + to hit and damage, a few extra elite soldier allies, and take on a smaller than normal enemy command unit. (reverse if the enemy is larger)</p>
<p>Make retreating an option for both sides. The scale of victory is dependant on how many commanders survive vs die.</p>
<p>This combines the being the leader/shock troopper with the idea that you still need backup.</p>How I would handle it: Have them still manage the army but ignore the mass combat rolls.
Presumably you are still using the kingdom building rules. Have the players buy units per normal, with them being fairly mundane for the most part. This will get you the unit's strength. Players will move the armies arround to bring them into position as normal.
When you meet an enemy army, leaders gravitate towards eachother. Make every mass combat into those leaders fighting. Give bonuses to the side...Caineach2013-01-09T18:31:49ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combatfictionfanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#282013-01-09T18:14:00Z2013-01-09T18:14:00Z<p>How big a moral penalty would you give a army that had it's leaders killed off an hour ago? Personally I would always train small powerful armies to fight huge armies. The only reason I can see for huge armies to hold the territory after the battle is done which is not a consideration if you are the one being attacked.</p>How big a moral penalty would you give a army that had it's leaders killed off an hour ago? Personally I would always train small powerful armies to fight huge armies. The only reason I can see for huge armies to hold the territory after the battle is done which is not a consideration if you are the one being attacked.fictionfan2013-01-09T18:14:00ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass CombatOrthoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#272013-01-09T13:34:27Z2013-01-09T13:34:27Z<p>I might try something like that. The main complaint of the more vocal three of the four who are against it (the fourth is just kind of meh on it, and goes along with his wife) is that mass combat takes the focus away from the PCs, who are supposed to be the main characters and the focus of the players' time at the gaming table, and puts it on the armies. Having the players moving throughout the active army forces and taking out key strategical advantages of the enemy, allowing their army to swoop in for the victory after they've tipped the scales some way, does seem a good way to manage that.</p>
<p>The one guy who wants it specifically wants it because he's a massive fan of war games and I really don't think anything short of Warhammer-style combat will give him the degree of tactical control he wants >_></p>I might try something like that. The main complaint of the more vocal three of the four who are against it (the fourth is just kind of meh on it, and goes along with his wife) is that mass combat takes the focus away from the PCs, who are supposed to be the main characters and the focus of the players' time at the gaming table, and puts it on the armies. Having the players moving throughout the active army forces and taking out key strategical advantages of the enemy, allowing their army to...Orthos2013-01-09T13:34:27ZRe: Forums: Kingmaker: Nixing Mass Combat3.5 Loyalisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pc47?Nixing-Mass-Combat#262013-01-09T13:09:41Z2013-01-09T13:09:41Z<p>You could have certain spell strategies get quite the advantage, but not win the battle outright. Enchantment alters who is on what side, conjuration or necromancy tips the numbers, evocation/achemists lower the morale of the other side, divination aids strategy, tansmutation increases the attack power of a side, abjuration makes important figures tougher and less likely to die, illusion if successful ruins the bonus of a general (that is not a hill).</p>You could have certain spell strategies get quite the advantage, but not win the battle outright. Enchantment alters who is on what side, conjuration or necromancy tips the numbers, evocation/achemists lower the morale of the other side, divination aids strategy, tansmutation increases the attack power of a side, abjuration makes important figures tougher and less likely to die, illusion if successful ruins the bonus of a general (that is not a hill).3.5 Loyalist2013-01-09T13:09:41Z