Witch's Cackle and Fortune Hex (Broken Combo?)


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Hey there.

I'm currently working on writing a campaign which I wish to run with my friends. ...Well, okay, two friends, my girlfriend, and one of her friends.

My girlfriend's friend (let's just call him Rick; not in any way relevant to his real name, it's just a handle) wants to make a witch. He has been trying to jump through hoops and bend me over backwards about rules and flavor for my campaign. Because I want it to be a low-fantasy meets "ZOMG WTF Where did this come from?!" fantasy, I've restricted the races to core only. That was the beginning of my problems with Rick, but not important!

Because I don't want to leave anything up to chance, I said he could NOT use the flight and prehensile hair hexes for free out of combat as flavor, because they never know what's going to happen, and if he suddenly drops a teacup he's holding in his hair, he knows something is about to break out in the inn! So he takes up the Cackle and Fortune hexes, as mentioned in the title.

Apparently, what he plans to do is spend a standard to use the Fortune hex, then a move to use the Cackle hex to extend the duration, and basically just keep using the Cackle hex throughout the entirety of the day until they sleep, and then start all over again the next day.

I have no idea how to treat this, aside from slapping him across the face with a leather glove because he keeps doing this every time I deny him something he wants. Kind of like a crying child because you told him he can't have a lollipop (only I wouldn't slap a child).

While there's the obvious options of killing the character, silencing the character, or...whatever condition I could throw at him, this isn't a permanent solution and he and the other players will call me on it.

I'm looking for clarification, mostly, on how the hexes work because I am just so confused and stressed over something that's probably really simple.

Any advice?

-BoriBam

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Have you ever tried to laugh continuously for an entire day? Or for any prolonged period of time, really? That's going to wear out your voice.

As GM you're perfectly within your rights to say that, after a reasonable amount of time, Rick's going to start feeling hoarse, and eventually be unable to speak at all. That's common sense, and exactly the kind of thing the GM is there to adjudicate. Just let him know you plan on running your game this way, and if he doesn't like it, let him pick different hexes.

That said, it sounds like your real problem is your relationship with Rick. If he's hell bent on causing problems, he'll find a way to do so, rules be damned. You may be better off just talking to him, and trying to figure out a way for both of you to compromise and have fun with the game.

Liberty's Edge

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So let me see if I understand this. He wants to use fortune, then cackle all the time to keep it up?

Normally I'm an advocate of talking to the player first, but it sounds like you've done that.

Fine let him. That means that he's going to be severely limited. Here are some examples of what could happen to him (and would if it was my campaign)

penalties:

1.) For overland movement he can only move half his move (he's spending the other half laughing)
2.) Witches can be viewed with suspicion and distrust. He's now let everyone in earshot know he's a witch. Imagine how much fun he'll have if he goes into a settlement that's hostile to witches.
3.) Every monster in earshot is going to know where he (and by extension the party) is due to him LHAO.
4.) I would seriously make him start making fortitude checks to avoid going horse. The rules don't specifically say vocal components are needed for cackle (in fact they're not since it's a supernatural at he's going ability), but I would houserule that right in.
5.) In combat he's going to be limited in what he can do (already spending his move action). A few monsters charging him and he may have to stop cackling.

I'm sure there are a few other options you can do as well. If that doesn't work you could always ask him not to play.


Just use fortune and cackle before the fights, all day is just dumb


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Make an Inn patron who enjoys his peace and quiet.

Make him about 4-5 levels higher than the party.

Have him get pissed off at the cackling idiot he can hear all the way upstairs in his room.

Have him go murder the annoying little git and then go about his business.


Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it, and it gave me some ideas I didn't even think of.

I'm definitely going to have to sit down and make a list of things to watch for as part of my prep.


ask him to cackle in char, all session. have a social encounter or two, tell him if he can't keep up the cackle in char the char can't either.

And make him laugh not just say "i spend a move action to cackle"...

Or talk to him like an adult. Really.


So he wants to be a walking -2 penalty to everyone around him for every skill? Let him be the distraction and let the party deal with it on the first day.


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Cackle isn't a vocal effect by RAW. However, you don't get two move actions in difficult terrain. Thus, the moment he dismounts from a horse, walks up a flight of stairs, or anything else deemed as difficult, he has to stop the hex.


If you only cackle and move in every round, a single rounds interruption (or being 30' from the targets) ends the effect. It's far more effective to Cackle twice a round for a couple of hours before setting out on your adventure. That way you can stop while you need to be doing other things.

There's no real mechanical solution for this. It's a roleplaying and player level problem and it sounds like a personality conflict with this player. I'd just tell him flat out you won't allow it. Make up an in-game reason if you want - rules for going hoarse or whatever - but make it clear that the real reason is metagame, not in world.

The prime rule is "Don't be a dick." Using this combination in this way is being a dick. Stop it up front. Letting him take it with this intent and then killing/punishing the character for it is also being a dick. Deal with it up front.


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What's up with not allowing utility flight and hair? I can see not allowing hair at all for flavor, but restricting it to combat only seems weird. I don't understand the flying restriction at all. A standard action for x minutes of fly per day shouldn't need further restrictions.

As far as the all day cackle, just describe it to the party, and surely they'll realize what a bad idea it is and stop it.

+1 to everyone pointing out this is a personal conflict, better to resolve this than get mired deeper in the exploit/punish cycle.


Cult of Vorg wrote:

What's up with not allowing utility flight and hair? I can see not allowing hair at all for flavor, but restricting it to combat only seems weird. I don't understand the flying restriction at all. A standard action for x minutes of fly per day shouldn't need further restrictions.

As far as the all day cackle, just describe it to the party, and surely they'll realize what a bad idea it is and stop it.

+1 to everyone pointing out this is a personal conflict, better to resolve this than get mired deeper in the exploit/punish cycle.

I read "I said he could NOT use the flight and prehensile hair hexes for free out of combat as flavor" as ignoring the time limit as long as it was just flavor, rather than not allowing them to be used out of combat.

OOC flight I think is too useful to be allowed for flavor, but I might go with the hair. With a lot of the minute/level transformations, I'd like to be able to use them OOC for flavor stuff - his example of using the hair to hold his teacup - but if you're time limited you're not going to waste it on flavor use. A good cup of tea would use up most of your time for the day.
Maybe let you have the hair full time, but only count combat or other strenuous/stressful uses against the timelimit?


For free? Missed that, sorry. No reason to allow that.

Sovereign Court

While I know you're limiting stuff, there's an archetype for Witches that gets rid of Hexes, but gets super-fighting hair all the time. That'd fix a lot of your problems, actually, as long as you hammer out all the questionable parts of the archetype beforehand.

Liberty's Edge

I'd just de-invite him. That sort of player is always going to be a problem. If it's not hexes it's going to be something else.


Just keep in mind that Rick is limiting his use of Move actions and telling every critter in the dungeon/woods/temple exactly where the party is. When his insane cackling wakes up the 23 ogres and 8 dire wolves who were just waiting around to be taken out a room at a time, they all band up and chase Rick & crew out of their lair like a bunch of primitives chasing Indiana Jones...but Rick doesn't have a plane waiting in the river.

Throw realistic but severe consequences for ludicrous behavior at rules-abusers and watch them either quit or conform.

If that fails, see Feral's post above.


Abyssian wrote:

Just keep in mind that Rick is limiting his use of Move actions and telling every critter in the dungeon/woods/temple exactly where the party is. When his insane cackling wakes up the 23 ogres and 8 dire wolves who were just waiting around to be taken out a room at a time, they all band up and chase Rick & crew out of their lair like a bunch of primitives chasing Indiana Jones...but Rick doesn't have a plane waiting in the river.

Throw realistic but severe consequences for ludicrous behavior at rules-abusers and watch them either quit or conform.

If that fails, see Feral's post above.

As has been said above, there are no rules on how loud cackling has to be, if it even has to be loud at all. You can also cackle full time for part of you 8 hours of downtime in the morning, preferably in a safe location, giving you hours of already stored up fortune time.

If you wanted to be a dick about it, you could make him, and everyone else, go through it on a round by round basis. You'd need to, to make sure everyone stays within range and he doesn't stop. A few hours of this would probably piss everyone off enough to make him stop.
OTOH, that's being a dick. Don't do that. Tell him upfront you won't let it work.


Okay, first off, I didn't get past a guy named Rick wanting to be a witch, cackling all day, and then trying to "bend you over backwards" without doing a spit-take (and I was enjoying that coffee!) The armchair psychologist in me wants me to say something here but I'll refrain. I'm glad your open-minded, BTW.

ANYHOO... run you next session in Salem (or the Golarion equivalent).


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fortune hex rules wrote:
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

So, he's going through all this trouble to grant a single party member a single extra roll on their first attack, save or skill check.

Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

Let him do it. Be careful to enforce the move action and 30 foot limitations.

Throw some stuff at the party to use it up.

Move on.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Dark Archive

Sounds like a problem player. I'd just tell him "no you can't do that, and if you don't know why you shouldn't be playing in this game."

If he's just an experienced player who falls back on "but the rules say I can!" just remind him the rules aren't the GM.


Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Jiggy, I fail to see how this sentence: "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours" leaves much room for debate.

Similar wording is used for several witch hexes and nobody argues that party member can be, for example, healed more than once per 24 hrs.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
fortune hex rules wrote:
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

So, he's going through all this trouble to grant a single party member a single extra roll on their first attack, save or skill check.

Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

Let him do it. Be careful to enforce the move action and 30 foot limitations.

Throw some stuff at the party to use it up.

Move on.

It's generally agreed that, like some of the other extended hexes, you can only be hexed with it once/day, but if it's extended with cackle (or the 8th & 16th level bumps) you can get the reroll once/round. After all, if the intent is that the extended duration only gives you longer to use your one reroll, why does it say once per round?

I'm not sure if that's ever been officially clarified.

That would be a good ruling to use to stop the problem player from abusing it, but again, tell him up front. Don't let him build his character to use it, then pull the rug out from under him.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Hard to say. The description specifically states once per round, than goes on to say once benefited, no more for 24 hours. Given the description of misfortune specifically says "target of" I'd say Fortune works similarly, only a creature can be the target of it multiple times per day, up to the point he has benefited from it, and once benefited from it, any further duration is relevant and ineffective.


Dust Raven wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Hard to say. The description specifically states once per round, than goes on to say once benefited, no more for 24 hours. Given the description of misfortune specifically says "target of" I'd say Fortune works similarly, only a creature can be the target of it multiple times per day, up to the point he has benefited from it, and once benefited from it, any further duration is relevant and ineffective.

This is the most generous interpretation I could come up with from the wording. At the very least, the OP can explain this interpretation as being his own. It's what the text actually says anyway.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Jiggy, I fail to see how this sentence: "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours" leaves much room for debate.

Similar wording is used for several witch hexes and nobody argues that party member can be, for example, healed more than once per 24 hrs.

So why does it say "once per round"? If it's one-and-done, then saying "once per round" makes no sense at all. So why does it say that?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Each party member can only benefit from this once per 24 hr period.

I recall there being some debate as to whether "benefit from" refers to applying the double-roll to something, or refers to being targeted by the hex.

The argument in favor of the latter (opposite of what you seem to believe) was built mostly upon the issue of why the duration can be increased (by level or by Cackle) if it could only be used once.

I'm not sure whether it was ever resolved definitively. Not even quite sure where I stand, at the moment.

Jiggy, I fail to see how this sentence: "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours" leaves much room for debate.

Similar wording is used for several witch hexes and nobody argues that party member can be, for example, healed more than once per 24 hrs.

OTOH, you can't extend the healing hex with Cackle or by being higher level. Nor does the healing hex say anything like "The target can call upon this good luck once per round".

It's that line that is the strongest argument that you can get more than one reroll out of the hex.

Liberty's Edge

He's a problem player that's not interested in cooperating. Even if you shoot him down on this he's going to try to find something else to abuse. Cut your losses and move on.

Players like him need to play with Monty Haul DMs that don't really care about maintaining game balance or continuity.


thejeff wrote:

As has been said above, there are no rules on how loud cackling has to be, if it even has to be loud at all. You can also cackle full time for part of you 8 hours of downtime in the morning, preferably in a safe location, giving you hours of already stored up fortune time.

If you wanted to be a dick about it, you could make him, and everyone else, go through it on a round by round basis. You'd need to, to make sure everyone stays within range and he doesn't stop. A few hours of this would probably piss everyone off enough to make him stop.
OTOH, that's being a dick. Don't do that. Tell him upfront you won't let it work.

As far as I know, the only "how loud" rule is for the volume limit of ghost sound.

Since Cackle is a move action (so it happens in combat), it is at least as loud as a single combatant.


Jason Bulmahn on the benefits from question.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.


My witch player tried to do this too. He had the bright idea to keep on cackling too, so eventually it'd build up overlap. Spend one round cackling twice, and build up a free round. So eventually if you spent X rounds cackling, you'd have about 2X rounds of fortune. Do it for an hour, and you get 2 hours.

I cackled at him and said no. An ability you can get at level 2 is not meant to allow everyone in your party roll twice for the entire day.

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Thanks for the link, Cheapy! List'd.

So yeah, if the target has multiple rounds of Fortune, they get the effect once per round for the whole duration.

So the OP's proposition (or rather, his player's proposition) is that if you spend long enough cackling, you can end up with everyone having Fortune 1/round for the rest of the day, or theoretically for an arbitrarily long time.


Jiggy, you are choosing to interpret a very questionable part of the text in the most favorable manner possible, and completely ignoring the very clear part of the rule that says a PC can only "benefit from" the hex once per 24 hours.

I always have to laugh when people do this sort of thing. If you are going to parse the portion the way you are to gain as much as possible, you should at least be honest enough to also parse the part where it states unequivocably that a PC can only benefit once per 24 hrs. But you don't, because you don't LIKE that part.

As far as why it is worded this way, well my vote would be that game designers aren't perfect and make mistakes. Lots of mistakes.

If you truly believe this hex is intended to allow the witch to grant an entire party two rolls for every attack, skill check and save for any arbitrary length of time...

Well, I mean I just have to laugh.


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Makes this alot easier....

Stealing pants

Your going to sneak attack with a ballista?

There has to be a rule against this.


Abyssian wrote:
thejeff wrote:
As has been said above, there are no rules on how loud cackling has to be, if it even has to be loud at all.

As far as I know, the only "how loud" rule is for the volume limit of ghost sound.

Since Cackle is a move action (so it happens in combat), it is at least as loud as a single combatant.

I don't see that as following. Do all combatants making the same amount of noise? If anything, I'd assume the move action would be quiet and the standard attacking action would make all the noise.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Jiggy, you are choosing to interpret a very questionable part of the text in the most favorable manner possible, and completely ignoring the very clear part of the rule that says a PC can only "benefit from" the hex once per 24 hours.

I always have to laugh when people do this sort of thing. If you are going to parse the portion the way you are to gain as much as possible, you should at least be honest enough to also parse the part where it states unequivocably that a PC can only benefit once per 24 hrs. But you don't, because you don't LIKE that part.

As far as why it is worded this way, well my vote would be that game designers aren't perfect and make mistakes. Lots of mistakes.

If you truly believe this hex is intended to allow the witch to grant an entire party two rolls for every attack, skill check and save for any arbitrary length of time...

Well, I mean I just have to laugh.

Then I guess you should inform Pathfinder's Lead Designer that he's wrong. Miss Cheapy's link, did ya? ;)

I won't let a player do the all-day thing, but as for what "benefit from" means and how many times you can use it within the duration, the interpretation that you laughed at and attributed to all sorts of moral shortcomings is, in fact, correct.

Maybe next time you should take differing opinions seriously instead of assuming that anything you don't agree with is obviously trying to get away with something.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Jiggy, you are choosing to interpret a very questionable part of the text in the most favorable manner possible, and completely ignoring the very clear part of the rule that says a PC can only "benefit from" the hex once per 24 hours.

I always have to laugh when people do this sort of thing. If you are going to parse the portion the way you are to gain as much as possible, you should at least be honest enough to also parse the part where it states unequivocably that a PC can only benefit once per 24 hrs. But you don't, because you don't LIKE that part.

As far as why it is worded this way, well my vote would be that game designers aren't perfect and make mistakes. Lots of mistakes.

If you truly believe this hex is intended to allow the witch to grant an entire party two rolls for every attack, skill check and save for any arbitrary length of time...

Well, I mean I just have to laugh.

Yeah. And everyone agrees that it shouldn't be used to grant rerolls all day long. But for the 2-3 rounds a high level witch can keep it up or for a combat with cackle, seems reasonable.

And that's what Jason Bulmahn seemed to think.
Makes it harder to rule out the abuse, but the abuse is so obviously abuse it's easy to just shoot it down.

Sovereign Court

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Derail Prevention Mode:
KenderKin wrote:

Makes this alot easier....

Stealing pants

Your going to sneak attack with a ballista?

There has to be a rule against this.

Assuming this is the scene from the Gamers movie... It is within 30 feet and uses an attack roll. The target is denied his dexterity bonus, so there is sneak attack. In theory, it is RAW acceptable to sneak attack with a direct siege weapon, unless I'm missing something special under Siege rules.


Jiggy, it is specifically the "all day thing" that I am laughing at.

Jason's comment specifically stated "based on level" and did not address cackling. I read through the thread to see if anyone brought up the rather obvious fact that cackling would allow this to be extended indefinitely to see what Jason's response to his own ruling would then be, but nobody did.

If you want to say the benefit lasts rounds based on the witch's level, I'm fine with that.

But if you do that, then you either have to make an exception for cackling (which is not RAW) or else you need to accept that the OP's player is allowed to extend the "benefit" for arbitrary periods. Something you seem unwilling to do.

So don't go all high and mighty about the "rules" Jiggy. Using Jason's interpretation along with RAW on cackle, you yourself are opposing actual RAW.

Personally I think this is just another example of poor wording, poor testing and lack of any sort of synergy testing on the part of Paizo.

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If a witch is cackling for hours at a time to extend the hex, she's going to have to start making Fortitude saves against losing her voice pretty soon.


Actually, you're wrong Adamantine Dragon. Cackle is quite explicit in how it functions, and it functions by extending duration. And Fortune explicitly gives one re-roll per round, and even includes rules for lasting longer without combining with other hexes. By the rules, you absolutely can cackle all day long, and there are ways around most of the downsides as well. Have to remain within 30 feet? Scar Hex allows it within one mile. Too loud? Message lets you do it at a whisper. The only thing it permanently removes is a move action each round, and honestly that seems enough punishment to me.

Because, playing a Witch, there are very large weaknesses. You have some good buffs in your hexes, but by and large you're a very weak class. At early levels you're almost entirely reliant on mind-affecting and sleep effects, which at least in the game I played a Witch in meant I could affect maybe 1 in five of the things we ran into. There were entire gaming sessions where my entire use to the party was a small amount of healing and the Fortune Hex, and it's quite a blow to the class to limit it any more than it already is.

Think it's too powerful? It's not. First off, it's difficult to keep going, especially in combat. Without a move action you have a choice between either directly assisting in combat or positioning yourself each round, and especially at low levels when they have access to fewer hexes they'll spend a lot more time doing the latter. Especially if you throw an NPC or monster with Knowledge Arcana, they can probably identify Cackle and keep enough pressure up to severely punish that lost move action. A lot of effects can even rob them of that action too, and then they can't use it again that day.

In my opinion, it really only gets broken when the Witch uses Fortune, Healing, Ward, Cackle and similar Hexes with Scar from a mile away while enjoying a margarita. Which is doable by the rules, but highly questionable.


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RainyDayNinja wrote:
If a witch is cackling for hours at a time to extend the hex, she's going to have to start making Fortitude saves against losing her voice pretty soon.

Where in the rules is this stated?


David Thomson wrote:

Actually, you're wrong Adamantine Dragon. Cackle is quite explicit in how it functions, and it functions by extending duration. And Fortune explicitly gives one re-roll per round, and even includes rules for lasting longer without combining with other hexes. By the rules, you absolutely can cackle all day long, and there are ways around most of the downsides as well. Have to remain within 30 feet? Scar Hex allows it within one mile. Too loud? Message lets you do it at a whisper. The only thing it permanently removes is a move action each round, and honestly that seems enough punishment to me.

Because, playing a Witch, there are very large weaknesses. You have some good buffs in your hexes, but by and large you're a very weak class. At early levels you're almost entirely reliant on mind-affecting and sleep effects, which at least in the game I played a Witch in meant I could affect maybe 1 in five of the things we ran into. There were entire gaming sessions where my entire use to the party was a small amount of healing and the Fortune Hex, and it's quite a blow to the class to limit it any more than it already is.

Think it's too powerful? It's not. First off, it's difficult to keep going, especially in combat. Without a move action you have a choice between either directly assisting in combat or positioning yourself each round, and especially at low levels when they have access to fewer hexes they'll spend a lot more time doing the latter. Especially if you throw an NPC or monster with Knowledge Arcana, they can probably identify Cackle and keep enough pressure up to severely punish that lost move action. A lot of effects can even rob them of that action too, and then they can't use it again that day.

In my opinion, it really only gets broken when the Witch uses Fortune, Healing, Ward, Cackle and similar Hexes with Scar from a mile away while enjoying a margarita. Which is doable by the rules, but highly questionable.

David, actually, taking Jason's ruling, I am saying exactly the same thing you are saying.

It was Jiggy saying that everyone agrees that all day long fortune is silly.

I'm saying that if you take Jason's ruling as RAW, then what you are describing is perfectly allowable.

I just think it's stupid, that's all.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Jiggy, it is specifically the "all day thing" that I am laughing at.

That's not what your post said:

You wrote:

Jiggy, you are ... completely ignoring the very clear part of the rule that says a PC can only "benefit from" the hex once per 24 hours.

...you should at least be honest enough to also parse the part where it states unequivocably that a PC can only benefit once per 24 hrs. But you don't, because you don't LIKE that part.

What's that got to do with the all-day exploit? Nothing. You were so sure that the 1/day "benefit" meant the re-roll, that you were willing to make accusations of "ignoring" things, and even assign motives.

Then when it turned out you were wrong, you claimed to have meant something other than what you plainly said.

One last thing:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Using Jason's interpretation along with RAW on cackle, you yourself are opposing actual RAW.

Never claimed otherwise, and never will. I simply disallow it at my tables.


@thejeff: while I agree that the noise-maker of combat would normally be the standard action rather than the move action, I maintain that there is very little in the way of rules for how loud particular actions (Cackle included) are. I don't think that that indicates a lack of volume, in fact...

PRD, Cackle hex wrote:
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

Bold is mine. While "madly" doesn't implicitly mean "loudly," it does seem to infer "louder than normal speach."

That all said, a thread about judication on the volumes of particular actions would probably be better on another thread (I realize that I am more guilty of this particular thread-jacking than you are- and I'm trying to rectify that in this post). If you would like to continue this portion of sub-debate, I'd be glad to continue elsewhere.


David Thomson wrote:

Actually, you're wrong Adamantine Dragon. Cackle is quite explicit in how it functions, and it functions by extending duration. And Fortune explicitly gives one re-roll per round, and even includes rules for lasting longer without combining with other hexes. By the rules, you absolutely can cackle all day long, and there are ways around most of the downsides as well. Have to remain within 30 feet? Scar Hex allows it within one mile. Too loud? Message lets you do it at a whisper. The only thing it permanently removes is a move action each round, and honestly that seems enough punishment to me.

Because, playing a Witch, there are very large weaknesses. You have some good buffs in your hexes, but by and large you're a very weak class. At early levels you're almost entirely reliant on mind-affecting and sleep effects, which at least in the game I played a Witch in meant I could affect maybe 1 in five of the things we ran into. There were entire gaming sessions where my entire use to the party was a small amount of healing and the Fortune Hex, and it's quite a blow to the class to limit it any more than it already is.

Think it's too powerful? It's not. First off, it's difficult to keep going, especially in combat. Without a move action you have a choice between either directly assisting in combat or positioning yourself each round, and especially at low levels when they have access to fewer hexes they'll spend a lot more time doing the latter. Especially if you throw an NPC or monster with Knowledge Arcana, they can probably identify Cackle and keep enough pressure up to severely punish that lost move action. A lot of effects can even rob them of that action too, and then they can't use it again that day.

In my opinion, it really only gets broken when the Witch uses Fortune, Healing, Ward, Cackle and similar Hexes with Scar from a mile away while enjoying a margarita. Which is doable by the rules, but highly questionable.

That's not all that broken because the witch can now only use those few hexes, not all her other abilities - spells for example. If you really want to reduce 1/4 of the party strength to a few hexes, go right ahead. More of a problem for an cohort witch, if high enough level. Or for an enemy witch to use to support her minions, but that just makes an interesting challenge.

As for the Fortune/Cackle combo, if you're trying to keep it going one round at a time, you're right. It's very limiting and a huge pain.
You're missing the real abuse, which is cackling twice around for hours in downtime so that you've got extended time built up and can make use of your in combat move actions for other things most of the time. Or go quiet when you need to. Or whatever.

Just ban out of combat cackling and don't worry about it.


We're also wondering what hexes look like. If anyone has any insight on that, lemme know.


Jiggy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Jiggy, it is specifically the "all day thing" that I am laughing at.

That's not what your post said:

You wrote:

Jiggy, you are ... completely ignoring the very clear part of the rule that says a PC can only "benefit from" the hex once per 24 hours.

...you should at least be honest enough to also parse the part where it states unequivocably that a PC can only benefit once per 24 hrs. But you don't, because you don't LIKE that part.

What's that got to do with the all-day exploit? Nothing. You were so sure that the 1/day "benefit" meant the re-roll, that you were willing to make accusations of "ignoring" things, and even assign motives.

Then when it turned out you were wrong, you claimed to have meant something other than what you plainly said.

One last thing:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Using Jason's interpretation along with RAW on cackle, you yourself are opposing actual RAW.
Never claimed otherwise, and never will. I simply disallow it at my tables.

I never claimed to have meant anything different Jiggy. The whole point of this thread was about using fortune all day long, and that is, in fact, what I was objecting to. I was using the "once per 24 hour" as a way to argue against the all day thing.

I concede that Jason's ruling contradicts my own reading of the rule as written.

I concede also that Jason has full authority to make a stupid ruling if he wants to.

But that doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid ruling.

Every now and then I admit that I give the game designers more credit than they are due when I assume that a lead designer would not make a totally idiotic ruling.

And yet they do sometimes. As you clearly pointed out to me, and as I have conceded.

Just in case someone from Paizo is reading this, Jason's ruling could be "fixed" if it simply restricted the benefits per 24 hour period to being the number of levels of the witch using the hex. That would provide exactly what Jason was trying to do, without opening up this inane double-cackle for hours exploit.

Which, frankly, Jason should have realized as he was typing. He is a LEAD designer after all.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
If a witch is cackling for hours at a time to extend the hex, she's going to have to start making Fortitude saves against losing her voice pretty soon.
Where in the rules is this stated?

It's not in the rules. I meant it half as a joke, and half as a common sense, real-world limitation to the all-day cackling exploit.


If you allowed this "combo" who would enjoy the game?

I rule against this based upon rule 0.

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