Witch's Cackle and Fortune Hex (Broken Combo?)


Rules Questions

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Ettin Witch. I must make one. :P


thejeff wrote:
If we're talking about the OP's particular problem player, remember this was all pre-campaign discussion. The player is proposing builds. That seems the perfect time to shoot them down without being a dick.

I got the impression from the OP that the Fortune Cackle mechanic was something he discovered in-game when the player introduced it, and not something that was presented during the build. If that was a mistaken impression, my bad.

And, no, there are no RAW that state "Do this if you want to silence a caster permanently but not kill them". But the DM can say that the wounds inflicted from the "called shot" by a Monk NPC were sufficient to damage vocal chords.

Remember, not everything you rule as a DM is RAW. Your job is interpreter of the RAW's RAI, as well as handling situations without written rules as you see fit, and throwing out rules you don't like (the latter of which, hopefully, are outlined to the players pre-play).

Here's my RAI of Cackle (and likely is the official RAI, though there's no RAW or Dev post to prove it) after gaming for 25+ years:

It's kinda like a Morale effect. The cackle itself is magically vocal in nature, and requires other players to hear it to benefit from the Hex Extension. I might allow silent cackles for yourself, since you're aware that the effect is ongoing while performing it. I might allow some kind of telepathic transmittal vector if you can tell me a good story as to how you came about the ability. Backstory will sway my bending of rules every time, even if they're my own homebrew rules.

I would allow Bards to Countersong its' effects if heard, even though it's not technically listed as "Sonic" in nature. It just seems right to me.

There's other things I'd rule, and I'd discuss this with a prospective Witch player prior to the build. Always prior. Else you just seem like you're ruling on the fly. Which is sometimes necessary, but your job as the DM is to already know these things and account for them as much as possible.


Sitri wrote:

The limits on your other hexes are odd and perhaps has put him into an adversarial position, that being said, he is being a jackass about the cackle. Don't let him short hand it.

"Fortune and cackle"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"

Eventually he will decides laughing that long is too much of a pain in the ass to keep doing and/or piss off your girlfriend with his constant blathering.

If this feels a bit childish, every time he tries to talk to any PC or NPC tell him he is cackling he can't talk and/or all NPCs hate him and anyone around him.

So, you wouldn't ban the exploit, you would just make it impossible to actually use it. Why? If you're not going to let him use it, just ban it. Don't lull him into thinking it's a valid tactic and then screw him over by not letting him do it. I guess if you really want to drive him out of the game and look like a jerk in the process, that would be a good start.


thejeff wrote:
So, you wouldn't ban the exploit, you would just make it impossible to actually use it. Why? If you're not going to let him use it, just ban it. Don't lull him into thinking it's a valid tactic and then screw him over by not letting him do it. I guess if you really want to drive him out of the game and look like a jerk in the process, that would be a good start.

I tend to agree with this in general. In certain circumstances (such as a really stubborn player) this might not function. But always be upfront and honest in your communication. That's vitally important!

Barry Armstrong wrote:
I got the impression from the OP that the Fortune Cackle mechanic was something he discovered in-game when the player introduced it, and not something that was presented during the build. If that was a mistaken impression, my bad.

I was under a similar impression. Thus the gist of my advice.


thejeff wrote:
Sitri wrote:

The limits on your other hexes are odd and perhaps has put him into an adversarial position, that being said, he is being a jackass about the cackle. Don't let him short hand it.

"Fortune and cackle"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"
"Six seconds pass"
"I am still cackling"

Eventually he will decides laughing that long is too much of a pain in the ass to keep doing and/or piss off your girlfriend with his constant blathering.

If this feels a bit childish, every time he tries to talk to any PC or NPC tell him he is cackling he can't talk and/or all NPCs hate him and anyone around him.

So, you wouldn't ban the exploit, you would just make it impossible to actually use it. Why? If you're not going to let him use it, just ban it. Don't lull him into thinking it's a valid tactic and then screw him over by not letting him do it. I guess if you really want to drive him out of the game and look like a jerk in the process, that would be a good start.

I don't understand how the above makes the DM look like a jerk or makes the mechanic impossible. It's sticking to the rules, just like the player is. Is it annoying? Disturbingly so. But so is thinking this "mechanic" is a viable play tactic in the first place.

Making him round-by-round it every time makes it painfully clear that this approach is time consuming and annoying to all involved, as it would be in-game and in a real-life scenario given everything involved.

I consider it a good, healthy dose of "wake up and smell the coffee". That your breakfast cook had to brew within 30' of you because you spend 4 hours Cackling every morning.


Cackle is just a (mechanically) poorly thought out ability. Don't get in fights about it. Just house rule it. Append the following text onto it and it works just fine:

"Cackle is considered a Sonic Effect. To cackle, a witch must laugh out loud at the same volume she would normally speak the verbal components of her spells. A witch can cackle only once per round and may continue to cackle for a maximum number of consecutive rounds equal to her class level plus her intelligence modifier. A witch who reaches this limit regains the use of cackle after she ceases cackling for at least one full round."


Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.

Truth. Or simply remove the Fortune Hex (and Misfortune, to be fair) from Cackle. That would really be the easiest route to disallowing the combo without completely rewriting text lines.

Rewriting semantics often CAUSES broken combos like this, not CURES them.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.

Actually, the once per round does stop it. Or close to it. Since you can't build up time, you can't do the real abuse and the effect will end the round after you stop, so you won't be able to start it up again. Once you get the extended fortune at higher levels, you'll be able to do it for two (or three) sets of rounds, but that's all.

Might be more limiting than I'd like at lower levels. Especially your limit = witchs level. Not being able to extend the offensive hexes more than your level is really a problem at the first few levels.

Honestly though, if you're going to house rule it, does it really matter the details of the house rule? Just ban the actual thing that's the problem: extending the duration of fortune for extended periods out of combat, don't try to come up with other restrictions that stop it as a side-effect but also build in other limitations.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Truth. Or simply remove the Fortune Hex from Cackle. That would really be the easiest route to disallowing the combo without completely rewriting text lines.

Then you pretty much remove one of the primary purposes of cackle in the first place. Yes, it could apply to other hexes still, but why should fortune deserve the cut?

Overall, there's no reason to limit the way it works as is. Just don't let an absurd case of doubling up on cackles work and it does fine.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.

Yeah, I guess I'd add the clause "whenever a witch stops cackling, all of her hexes affected by cackle expire" or similar. The max extension thing would work too, of, course; it just seems like more book keeping if a cackling witch starts different hexes on different rounds. No worse than round/level spells though I guess. Shrug.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.

Truth. Or simply remove the Fortune Hex (and Misfortune, to be fair) from Cackle. That would really be the easiest route to disallowing the combo without completely rewriting text lines.

Rewriting semantics often CAUSES broken combos like this, not CURES them.

Not fixing obviously broken rules is just lazy. You can tweak fortune now but a good fix would "future proof" cackle against abuse of any new hexes Paizo or some 3rd party dreams up in a new book.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Overall, there's no reason to limit the way it works as is. Just don't let an absurd case of doubling up on cackles work and it does fine.

How do you stop it when the player correctly says that the mechanics allow an infinite loop (without using the 4 methods of "Being a dick without being a dick I reference above)?


Barry Armstrong wrote:
How do you stop it when the player correctly says that the mechanics allow an infinite loop (without using the 4 methods of "Being a dick without being a dick I reference above)?

If you're fine with houseruling to prevent it, then you can easily say 'No, don't do that' without cutting the regular use of an ability. Otherwise, you want more options that don't severely nerf the hex in general?

1. Don't let Cackle be used more than once a round. That's a pretty simple fix.

2. You can also impose a maximum time limit on its duration as to how long the hex itself could last in the first place. In other words, when Fortune can last for 3 rounds, cackle can keep it 'topped off' at 3 rounds, but can't extend it past that. That still nerfs it quite a bit, because it means a witch pretty much can't keep it on through cackling until it allows for at least 2 rounds. Still, will do the job much better than saying 'Nope, Cackle doesn't affect Fortune now.'

Truthfully, giving Cackle a once-per-round limit is good. I never really thought it needed it, but I never really would have expected someone to try double-cackling for hours to have it endlessly available. So, a once-per-round limit seems rather sensible.

Edit: And, if a witch needs to keep everyone within a 30 foot radius for every round of a day to keep it on, anything that gets in the way of that will quickly become problematic, and mess up the hex. As I'm pretty sure it's supposed to in the first place.


Darkwolf117 wrote:

1. Don't let Cackle be used more than once a round. That's a pretty simple fix.

2. You can also impose a maximum time limit on its duration as to how long the hex itself could last in the first place. In other words, when Fortune can last for 3 rounds, cackle can keep it 'topped off' at 3 rounds, but can't extend it past that. That still nerfs it quite a bit, because it means a witch pretty much can't keep it on through cackling until it allows for at least 2 rounds. Still, will do the job much better than saying 'Nope, Cackle doesn't affect Fortune now.'

Truthfully, giving Cackle a once-per-round limit is good. I never really thought it needed it, but I never really would have expected someone to try double-cackling for hours to have it endlessly available. So, a once-per-round limit seems rather sensible.

Edit: And, if a witch needs to keep everyone within a 30 foot radius for every round of a day to keep it on, anything that gets in the way of that will quickly become problematic, and mess up the hex. As I'm pretty sure it's supposed to in the first place.

People are crafty. Munchkins like this guy sounds like are more so. Getting angry at rulebook limitations (using Core Races only) is the first clue to his nature. They will surprise you with their coming up with ways around rules.

I would agree with it scaling just like Fortune, starting with once per round and ending at 3 times consecutively. That sounds more fair than disallowing it altogether.


I must admit that I don't like the "once per round" cackle to fix this specific exploit. I use double cackle in combat frequently so that I can spend later rounds moving and doing other things without having to cackle every single round.

I don't think the double-cackle tactic itself is broken, it's just this ability to do it endlessly that is creating problems.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
People are crafty. Munchkins like this guy sounds like are more so. Getting angry at rulebook limitations (using Core Races only) is the first clue to his nature. They will surprise you with their coming up with ways around rules.

Hence why an even simpler solution can be just to say not to abuse it in the first place. A GM does have that right.

Barry Armstrong wrote:

I would agree with it scaling just like Fortune, starting with once per round and ending at 3 times consecutively. That sounds more fair than disallowing it altogether.

I'm not sure if you didn't quite get my meaning or just are saying you would prefer this better. I meant that they'd be free to keep extending hexes as long as they want, just that they wouldn't be able to extend them past the original duration. So, when Fortune is up to 3 rounds when first put on, a witch can cackle to extend it as much as they want, but never beyond three (meaning if something interrupts them, such as not wanting to be grouped into a 30 radius circle in the middle of combat) the duration will still drop after 3 rounds of no cackling.

It doesn't address keeping it on all day necessarily, but it does mean that whenever it's interrupted for more than a very short duration, it's off for the next 24 hours.

@ Adamantine: Actually, I've never seen double-cackling used in game, so I didn't realize that was a tactic that got used much.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I must admit that I don't like the "once per round" cackle to fix this specific exploit. I use double cackle in combat frequently so that I can spend later rounds moving and doing other things without having to cackle every single round.

I don't think the double-cackle tactic itself is broken, it's just this ability to do it endlessly that is creating problems.

You admit that it's an exploit, but then you say you use it. So of course you don't like the once-per-round fix. What would you recommend to dissuade the infinite loop?

Just thought of something, though. The OP limited Prehensile Hair and Flight out-of-combat. Why not simply limit Cackle to having no effect out-of-combat? To be honest, it was clearly meant to extend temporary combat effects, so just say it has no effect until battle begins?

Although the double-Cackle tactic would be useful to pre-buff the party right before a fight, so that might be too limiting as well...


Darkwolf117 wrote:
I'm not sure if you didn't quite get my meaning or just are saying you would prefer this better. I meant that they'd be free to keep extending hexes as long as they want, just that they wouldn't be able to extend them past the original duration. So, when Fortune is up to 3 rounds when first put on, a witch can cackle to extend it as much as they want, but never beyond three (meaning if something interrupts them, such as not wanting to be grouped into a 30 radius circle in the middle of combat) the duration will still drop after 3 rounds of no cackling.

Yeah, I misread your post above. I'm now confused as to how you can "extend it as much as you want, but never beyond <insert static number here>". That seems to be at odds with each other.


Apply fortune, with a maximum duration of 2 rounds at level 8.

Cackle as much as you want after that but it never gets past 2 rounds. It can still go down to 1, and a witch can still cackle it back up to 2, just not past it.

That's the idea behind that. If it's interrupted for 2 rounds straight, it's then gone.


That still allows for an infinite loop if you prevent the Witch from being interrupted. I don't really see it fixing anything except introducing another mechanic into the mix to "bobble" the maximum rounds.


What it prevents is loading up on hours of it ahead of time. It means that during combat, a witch does need to continue cackling with the whole party around him, or else the fortune hex will go off quite soon. That's basically the way it is supposed to work in the first place, without allowing the hours long cackling ahead of time.

Cackling, in my opinion, is meant to be used in combat to keep those hexes applied as long as possible, but it really isn't very easy to do so. Having the whole party stay within 30 feet each other is not very smooth, as it opens everyone up for some AoE's. It also means the witch is extremely close to enemies if they're keeping the fighter or other martial in range of the cackle (though I admit, other hexes for enemies are at that range, so it might be where he'd be anyway), and the witch is devoting a move action, at least, to it each round, which means you can move once or use a standard, and not much more (which is even worse if an enemy gets in your face).

So yeah, I know it doesn't solve the infinite loop, but you shouldn't really need to. That can be done easily through many other means. This keeps from making the duration huge ahead of time, so it runs pretty much the way it normally would.


Barry Armstrong wrote:


You admit that it's an exploit, but then you say you use it. So of course you don't like the once-per-round fix.

By "specific exploit" I meant specifically that THIS USE of double cackle to extend the fortune hex indefinitely Barry.

Thus the purpose behind saying the words "specific exploit". I did not say that double cackle itself is an "exploit" in fact I was trying to indicate that it was not by pointing out what WAS.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:


You admit that it's an exploit, but then you say you use it. So of course you don't like the once-per-round fix.

By "specific exploit" I meant specifically that THIS USE of double cackle to extend the fortune hex indefinitely Barry.

Thus the purpose behind saying the words "specific exploit". I did not say that double cackle itself is an "exploit" in fact I was trying to indicate that it was not by pointing out what WAS.

Err, you've managed to make me agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. That, sir, is a rare feat. Kudos. At least I now understand your point.

Did you have any chosen methods to fix the overuse? Or simply go with the once-per-round method that the majority of posters favor house-ruling?


I feel like I'm one of rather few actually who mentioned a once-per-round limit, and honestly, I don't think it even needs that.

As is, cackle + fortune doesn't need anything except a GM to say 'don't abuse things in horrible ways,' and it's pretty much fine. I feel like any houserules to prevent an exploit like this are also going to detract from the way it is meant to be used. It's much easier to just have a GM put their foot down on it.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:


You admit that it's an exploit, but then you say you use it. So of course you don't like the once-per-round fix.

By "specific exploit" I meant specifically that THIS USE of double cackle to extend the fortune hex indefinitely Barry.

Thus the purpose behind saying the words "specific exploit". I did not say that double cackle itself is an "exploit" in fact I was trying to indicate that it was not by pointing out what WAS.

Err, you've managed to make me agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. That, sir, is a rare feat. Kudos. At least I now understand your point.

Did you have any chosen methods to fix the overuse? Or simply go with the once-per-round method that the majority of posters favor house-ruling?

I have already said that the use of cackle to extend should be set to a level-based limit. So you can extend a hex effect no more than your level. If that means at level 8 you cackle 8 times in four rounds and gain 4 rounds of cackle-free hex extension, then you've spent four combat rounds doing nothing but cackle. I think that's a fine trade-off.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


I have already said that the use of cackle to extend should be set to a level-based limit. So you can extend a hex effect no more than your level. If that means at level 8 you cackle 8 times in four rounds and gain 4 rounds of cackle-free hex extension, then you've spent four combat rounds doing nothing but cackle. I think that's a fine trade-off.

It also means at 1st level you can't extend Evil Eye or Misfortune for more than one round, which really cripples cackle early on. For no purpose other than breaking one abusive combo.

You could limit it to a flat 20 rounds total or pretty much anything and still accomplish the same thing.

I'd still rather go with a "Don't abuse this and I won't have to break out the nerf bat" approach, since we're talking house rules.


Barry Armstrong wrote:

I don't understand how the above makes the DM look like a jerk or makes the mechanic impossible. It's sticking to the rules, just like the player is. Is it annoying? Disturbingly so. But so is thinking this "mechanic" is a viable play tactic in the first place.

Making him round-by-round it every time makes it painfully clear that this approach is time consuming and annoying to all involved, as it would be in-game and in a real-life scenario given everything involved.

I consider it a good, healthy dose of "wake up and smell the coffee". That your breakfast cook had to brew within 30' of you because you spend 4 hours Cackling every morning.

Yeah, it accomplishes that. It also means, even if every one in the party thinks the benefits are worth the cost, you still won't do it, because you'll waste hours of the player's time going "What are you doing this round?" "Cackling twice." "Everyone else?" "Still sitting here."

An hour of game time is 600 rounds. Saying all that 600 times will take most of an hour of real time and your players will kill you or each other.
There is no way any group will actually stand for that. Which means you're making the tactic impossible to use.


thejeff wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:

I don't understand how the above makes the DM look like a jerk or makes the mechanic impossible. It's sticking to the rules, just like the player is. Is it annoying? Disturbingly so. But so is thinking this "mechanic" is a viable play tactic in the first place.

Making him round-by-round it every time makes it painfully clear that this approach is time consuming and annoying to all involved, as it would be in-game and in a real-life scenario given everything involved.

I consider it a good, healthy dose of "wake up and smell the coffee". That your breakfast cook had to brew within 30' of you because you spend 4 hours Cackling every morning.

Yeah, it accomplishes that. It also means, even if every one in the party thinks the benefits are worth the cost, you still won't do it, because you'll waste hours of the player's time going "What are you doing this round?" "Cackling twice." "Everyone else?" "Still sitting here."

An hour of game time is 600 rounds. Saying all that 600 times will take most of an hour of real time and your players will kill you or each other.
There is no way any group will actually stand for that. Which means you're making the tactic impossible to use.

You could use the same tactic to ensure the characters never sleep.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sitri wrote:

The limits on your other hexes are odd and perhaps has put him into an adversarial position, that being said, he is being a jackass about the cackle. Don't let him short hand it.

Read in the OP post what the player want.

Free, unlimited use of the flight hex and the Prehensile hair hex out of combat.

What is odd in limiting those hex, in particular the flight hex to what is allowed by the rules?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Horbagh, the only problem with your house rule is that it doesn't stop the exploit. It just means the witch has to stop cackling sometimes, but since the hex will still be ongoing, after one round the witch just picks it up again and keeps extending the hex.

The only way to stop the exploit is to limit the length of time that a cackle can extend an effect. So make that limit equal to the witch's level. Then the witch can cackle all day, but it won't do anything but annoy people.

He has covered that angle AM:

"A witch can cackle only once per round"

So it would not be possible to charge multiple rounds. The exception would be a 8th+ level witch (that would have a 1 round window thanks to the 2 round duration of her hex) and a 16th+ level witch (with her 3 round duration of the hex).

Those exceptions work well too: the 8th+ witch get to double his hex duration and the 16th+ get to triple it, exactly the effect of the basic extension of the hex duration.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Cackle/Fortune is just not that much of a big deal.

At some point you are going to have to stop cackling for a range of practical reasons, and then thats it; you can't run it again for 24 hours.

In practical terms ie out of threads on boards and down into actual play, it just isn't that big a deal.

The same sillysauce argument can be had over people using 'Detect Evil' or 'guidance' every six seconds, or a whole range of other oddball concepts. What about a party member who insists on sneaking everywhere? Is the whole party content to walk at half speed while the bad guys run off into the distance?

I would recommend that the OP just gird his loins a little and have a few sessions of it in ACTUAL PLAY (and let the player know of your concern), and if he still finds it all too difficult then consider a change.

Stop looking at abilities in isolation, actually try them out. Many things that 'look great' don't play that way.


If a witch spends 40 years doing nothing but cackling, they can live the next 40 years with a constant fortune hex up! I just found the backstory for my next character! :P


Bardic Dave wrote:
If a witch spends 40 years doing nothing but cackling, they can live the next 40 years with a constant fortune hex up! I just found the backstory for my next character! :P

Spending the next 40 years catching up on eating and sleeping?

A simple solution for the witch that wants to cackle in public all the time to keep up a fortune hex is Grog the Barbarian.

"Puny Witch no laugh at Grog."

"I said puny Witch no laugh at Grog."

"Grog smash puny Witch."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For those interested, here is my thread with the requests for a FAQ.
We have already 28 FAQ requests.


Vod Canockers wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
If a witch spends 40 years doing nothing but cackling, they can live the next 40 years with a constant fortune hex up! I just found the backstory for my next character! :P

Spending the next 40 years catching up on eating and sleeping?

A simple solution for the witch that wants to cackle in public all the time to keep up a fortune hex is Grog the Barbarian.

"Puny Witch no laugh at Grog."

"I said puny Witch no laugh at Grog."

"Grog smash puny Witch."

RING OF SUSTENANCE FTW!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mostly talking to myself here, but if I ever run a campaign with witches, I am house-ruling cackle like so:

Quote:


Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action, but she may not cackle more than once per round. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round. This ability has audible components, and the target creature must be able to hear the witch.

I think I might also alter fortune to state that once a creature succeeds on a roll due to fortune, it cannot be affected by the hex again for 24 hours/1 day/whatever.

I realize some will disagree, but as they're unlikely to ever be in a game I GM, that's probably okay.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Mostly talking to myself here, but if I ever run a campaign with witches, I am house-ruling cackle like so:

Quote:


Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action, but she may not cackle more than once per round. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round. This ability has audible components, and the target creature must be able to hear the witch.

I think I might also alter fortune to state that once a creature succeeds on a roll due to fortune, it cannot be affected by the hex again for 24 hours/1 day/whatever.

I realize some will disagree, but as they're unlikely to ever be in a game I GM, that's probably okay.

I think it's a huge nerf, particularly to fortune, which is already pretty weak. If that's the way you want it, of course that's your call.

If you're just trying to stop the exploit, I think it's overkill.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Mostly talking to myself here, but if I ever run a campaign with witches, I am house-ruling cackle like so:

Quote:


Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action, but she may not cackle more than once per round. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round. This ability has audible components, and the target creature must be able to hear the witch.

I think I might also alter fortune to state that once a creature succeeds on a roll due to fortune, it cannot be affected by the hex again for 24 hours/1 day/whatever.

I realize some will disagree, but as they're unlikely to ever be in a game I GM, that's probably okay.

You might want to adjust that to once per the number of the original rounds of the Hex, they last longer at higher levels.

Or you could limit the number of times the witch can Cackle to one per level or one per level plus INT Bonus per day.

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