So for all of you guys rating evocation low your telling me you dont use magic missle,ever,no miss chance? or wall of flame? or rays cause most are evocation? Now I may be rating it higher then it should be cause I favor the spells (maybe residue from 3.5 love) but I think that the evoker is more versital now with the spells and crowd control they can do.
Actually I don't the best rays are typically in necromancy, and honestly if I can avoid rolling a dice at all when I cast a spell I'm pretty happy.
I rated Enchantment at the bottom because it is both really hit or miss and there are just too many creature types (and individuals) that are flat out immune to it. It has some nice late game stuff... but typically I simply don't find it worth while. Sure 'for a specific character' it works, but really if you have to build around it for it to be good it's not that good for everyday use.
Evocation is alright for a bit of damage, but honestly I rather leave that to the damage kings and the alchemist, I can instead spend my spells doing stuff they can't.
Transmutation is always good -- A single spell can often allow your buddies to do the heavy lifting, it has spells of all stripes, from damage to buffing to debuffing to battlefield control and best of all it leaves room for the entire party and makes you look like a team player while conserving resources.
Conjuration can fill in for most schools with its wide range of spell choices and also covers some unique points that the other schools simply can't match such as teleportation or calling.
Necromancy has good debuffs, pet spells, control spells, buffing spells, direct damage spells, mind control... it simply runs a huge range of options and has a lot of spells that simply work with little to no saves/attack rolls/spell resistance. From the lowly chill touch to the enervation spell, to control undead (and command undead for the unintelligent undead) to false life and ghoul's touch there is a lot of great stuff there.
Illusion is much less hit or miss than enchantment but some of the best stuff is up to GM fiat so it loses some points there. However for defensive spells it's one of the best at low levels (invisibility, vanish, mirror image, blur, displacement are all good examples) and the shadow spells offer a lot of versatility on the fly. However it suffers hard from lots of ways to get around it, a huge problem with lots of saves and SR... so it gets bumped to middle of the pack.
Divination if used properly can change the entire game. Which is why it sucks -- a GM has to be aware of the options that are available with it and it has the most and biggest issues with obscure hard to find rules being scattered all over the place and the weirdest spells to adjudicate and have to work with. It's great in what it can do especially if you are willing to take your time and use it right, but it's a headache to use and can really turn everything on its head... and that is before you factor in false leads, magical misdirection and the like.
Abjuration is solid. It is a workhorse school -- you aren't going to be flashy with it but damn if it doesn't do exactly as labelled. From solid defense spells, to resistances, to DR to flat out destroying other magic and denying entry abjuration is tight... but again little flash and rather reactionary -- I (and most others) tend to like being a bit more proactive that abjuration tends to allow -- but coupled with divination it can render tough encounters down to nothing... for better and for worse.
Evocation has gotten better than it was... which is like saying going from running a 30 minute two mile to a 20 minute two mile is an improvement. It is but you still suck and can't past an APFT. Spell resistance is always a factor and if the solution doesn't involve "Blow it apart" there is little to nothing you can do with this school. What's worse it doesn't even really offer good damage for the primary blasting school. At the high end it's spells are pitifully weak compared to other blasting options, and at low levels you don't have the caster level to really offer much damage there either, and that is before save throws, spell resistance, and energy resistances raise their ugly heads. Yeah you have some neat force spells... but really they don't offer much beyond force wall and the fist spells and there are other valid choices that will hit more things at once instead.
The major problem with Evocation is that the spells are still scaled to 2e HP. 10d6 fireball in 2e? Yes, I like nuking a whole room full of badguys. 3e with the dramatically inflated HPs? Simply not worth the time or effort unless you fight hordes of mooks all the time. In those situations a wand is generally a better solution even though wands of fireball tend to be dramatically overpriced.
Even ole reliable magic missile which was awesome in terms of interrupting opposing casters in 1e-2e has really fallen on hard times.
Scorching Ray is halfway decent but for the most part evocation blast are a big pile of suck because they do crap damage, almost always have saves attached, and elemental resistance are a dime a dozen.
3.5 with the orb spells was really bad about just kicking evocation while it was down but the truth of the matter is that evocation just scales really poorly currently.
If the damage dice were bigger or scaled better or there was fixed bonus damage based on caster level or casting stat modifier I think there would be a lot less of an issue with Evocation but right now it ranks pretty firmly as a trap option which is really a shame because it's so iconic and just about every new wizard/sorcerer player wants to spam blast all the time since it's visually cool even though it's distinctly subpar.
Before polymorph got nerfed into the ground (with some justification) I think Transmutation had a possible claim to the best school (due to having a massive spell list and awesome buffing) but right now conjuration just provides so much control it's unbelievable.
Evocation is my immediate, don't-have-to-think-it-over, dump school.
I agree. Unless I am taking the Dazing Spell feat it is dumped. Actually I would most likely dump it anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So for all of you guys rating evocation low your telling me you dont use magic missle,ever,no miss chance? or wall of flame? or rays cause most are evocation? Now I may be rating it higher then it should be cause I favor the spells (maybe residue from 3.5 love) but I think that the evoker is more versital now with the spells and crowd control they can do.
an interesting branch of magic that sounds bad on paper to me but I have heard alot of good review on is shadow I dont really understand that school very well.
I am not saying I don't use those spells, but I am saying I would never specialize in evocation, and it is the first spell I dump. Battles tend to go smoother if I either prevent the party from being hurt or buff the party to kill the enemy faster. That also saves the cleric from having to heal people.
Most evocation spells wont kill monsters unless they are APL-2 or more, which means they monster has not been hindered. An ogre(random monster chosen) with 1 hp is just as dangerous as one with 60 hp to an extent because he still hits just as hard. Now if I can charm him, or use hold person, or use battlefield control spells to delay his access to a party member I might prevent him from killing anyone. If I fireball him, he is likely to survive even if he fails the save and smash someone.
We are not saying evocation is not useful. We are saying that generally speaking the other schools are better, unless you put a lot of feats in to an evocation build, which is really not efficient.
Ok Bigger club.
Please can you give me a breakdown on what you are saying, cause to be honest I dont know how your pulling that kind of damage out of one spell.
There are traits and feats you can use to buy down the cost of metamagic feats.
That allows you to stack more metamagic feats such as empower and quicken on top of each other.There is also a feat that allows you to bypass the normal HD limit for a spell. Fireball normally caps at 10d6, but there is a way to push it to 15d6.
There are also class abilities that allow you to add extra damage to certain spells.
Quicken spell also helps since you get to cast a spell more than once if you use it.
Scorching ray is also used in builds like this.
|
Ok that makes since wraithstrike thank you. Also I know it sounds alittle childish to fight over "hows schools better" and they way you have verbalized it makes more sense on peoples thoughts on evokers. Holding a monster is better then dropping the creature if you can do so reliably.
In games I have played I usually end up in last to mid in init order so bringing down a good Damage and/or AOE helps the flow bringing down ones already weakened or bringing them close to death for the finish.
|
Well, there's a difference between good to specialize in, and good to keep.
Schools I'd consider for specialization:
* Conjuration(Teleportation): I play this and it's awesome. Multiple good spells every level, high diversity and good school powers. Some of the spells are so must-have, that this school is absolutely non-dump.
* Divination(Foresight): insane school powers, and you can find one spell of every level to prepare. However, finding a second worthwhile spell to learn at even levels is harder. This one works because of the school powers. I wouldn't want to dump this school because you almost always need some divination (Detect Magic), and sometimes a whole lot, for example multiple See Invisibility spells if fighting specific enemies.
* Evocation(Admixture): if the GM lets you use Admixture to turn non-[cold] spells into [cold] spells for Rime Spell, this school works okay. Changing energy types is essential to overcome resistant critters. High monster knowledge is probably needed to make sure you don't waste spells trying energy types until you find a weak spot. It's not the strongest specialist, but AoE is just fun. If I'm not specializing in Evocation, I might dump it though.
* Transmutation: unimpressive school powers, but the spell list is very long and has good stuff in it. Absolutely never dump it, because the point of wizardry is flexibility, and this school delivers most of that.
Schools I wouldn't specialize, but also not dump:
* Illusion: since I play a Treantmonk-style God Conjuration Wizard, the Invisibility spell is quite good for me. It's got a few other nice things. I don't use it enough to justify specialization, but prohibition would make Invisibility too expensive.
* Abjuration: when you need it, you probably need a LOT of it. Like multiple Resist Elements spells, or Dispel Magic, or Antimagic Field stuff. If more of the really good defensive spells were Abjuration (I'm looking at you, Mage Armor), this one might be more plausible for specialization. As it is, I don't use all the levels on a constant enough basis for specialization.
Schools I'd consider for dumping:
* Enchantment: the game plan here isn't great for wizards. Some of the battle spells are okay with the other schools, but not indispensible. Clerics for Hold Person better. The whole Charm line is more problematic; wizards don't have the Charisma/diplomancer class skills/skill points to really leverage it. Also, the GM needs to be cooperative. If you want to do this, it's better to make a Bard, they have the support skills you really need.
* Evocation: I need one school to inflict massive hurt. It could be Evocation or Necromancy. Evocation is slightly "cleaner", Necromancy seems more powerful though. I don't need both of these schools.
* Necromancy: it's handy to have a few destructive spells, to finish off monsters, provide some relief or catch fleeing monsters for example. Necromancy can do the job instead of Evocation, but the GM needs to be willing. If the GM (or the party paladin, or another squeamish player) has problems with Necromancy, dump it and consign your enemies to horrible burning alive with Evocation.
EDIT: I realize I've been so henpecked about Necromancy that I didn't evaluate it for specialization.
I think I'd like to try that, if the GM and party let me. The flavor is strong, the spells are okay too. It's a more personal-aggression build than the God Conjurer who summons monsters to do the dirty work though.
I don't see where Intensify has a place here. Intensify is for raising a cap on level based damage, and I don't see a level cap on the spell.Spell:Battering Blast.
So at CL20(Cap) it's 4x5d6 force damage.
Varisian Tattoo get's +1CL, Spell specilization gives +2. Spell perfection doubles those to +6 so CL 21 from just those. And spell perfection let's you ignore one metamagic feat as long as the spell level wouldn't raise over 9th.(More important with the quickened)
Intensify spell is the key metamagic feat to this particular combo. Raising it to 4x10d6
From the spell:
On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6).
So you raise the cap to 10d6, and hit that by level 20.
@jennica Fortune
were do you find the elemental schools? I dont remember seeing them? the only books I have are PHB,APHB and UC. Ordered UM because I am tierd of not having it.
The classic elemental schools (Earth, Air, Fire, Water) should be in the Advanced Player's Guide, then the 5 elements theory (Wood, Earth, Fire, Water, Metal) is in Ultimate Magic.
|
I doubt I could bring myself to choose Evocation as my opposition school. Most of my wizards use Acid Splash or Ray of Frost as their back-up "weapon" for when they're out of spells. How would I get through Level 1 if I didn't have my cantrips to fall back on in combat?
Transmutation is a nice specialty school, if only for the free +1 to a stat (usually Con in my case). Good choice for Eldritch Knights or Arcane Archers who will probably want to buff themselves anyway.
Abjuration is the easiest school to oppose. Yes, there's a few gems in it, but so much of the school is made up of situational spells that you wouldn't want to prepare every day-- it's the School of Bring a Scroll.
Illusion and Divination sound they'd be the most awesome to be good at, and if I lived on Golarion they'd be the only schools I cared about. But I don't, and in practice they never live up to what you think you can do with them. Divination especially doesn't pay off until you get a decent number of 3rd- or 4th-level slots per day.
I doubt I could bring myself to choose Evocation as my opposition school. Most of my wizards use Acid Splash or Ray of Frost as their back-up "weapon" for when they're out of spells. How would I get through Level 1 if I didn't have my cantrips to fall back on in combat?
The traditional way is to have a crossbow until you get to level 3 or so. Daze is also an option.
Illusion, divination, and enchantment are too subject to dm interpretation/understanding. That's my 2c anyway.
Ahem, acid splash is conjuration.
Ahem, acid splash is conjuration.
Pretty sure he knows that. N00b evokers get +1 damage, and can change the energy if it matters. Some things burn extra bright if you use fire. Or acid, or electricity. The only evokers who aren't admixture evokers are limited to the CRB, only. They don't suck, either.
1d3+1 vs. touch AC, or 1d8 vs. normal AC, with a round to reload. The spell will always do 2 on a hit. The crossbow? Good luck.
Fine spells for dropping those troublesome mooks at low level, when you've already blown through your spells for little effect.
Really? Because Wizards continue to be one of those really hard to kill classes in the game, at least it's how it always is in the games I run. Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Fly... the list goes on.Evocation is dropped first with each wizard I make.
Each time I think, "Wow, but I'll need to attract all sorts of attention to my frail buttocks with some showy fireball", I remember that I am entering combat in something akin to the protective qualities of a wedding dress.
I notice that none of those are in the evocation school.
I notice that none of those are in the evocation school.
An evoker casts them like any other wizard.
They'll summon monsters and cast haste, too, if that's the best move. Treantmonk rated it green. We seem to not be able to remember that evocation does anything but blast.
It's just that when they do, they can make it count.
|
|
I doubt I could bring myself to choose Evocation as my opposition school. Most of my wizards use Acid Splash or Ray of Frost as their back-up "weapon" for when they're out of spells. How would I get through Level 1 if I didn't have my cantrips to fall back on in combat?The traditional way is to have a crossbow until you get to level 3 or so. Daze is also an option.
And burn a move action (or worse) to reload it? And hit normal AC instead of touch? That's only "tradition" because Wizards were limited to maybe four or five cantrips per day in 3.X.
If you could put Spell Storing on a crossbow I'd consider it, but when it's so much easier to just not oppose Evocation and keep Ray of Frost or Jolt in my loadout, I'll do that every time.
|
|
I doubt I could bring myself to choose Evocation as my opposition school. Most of my wizards use Acid Splash or Ray of Frost as their back-up "weapon" for when they're out of spells. How would I get through Level 1 if I didn't have my cantrips to fall back on in combat?The traditional way is to have a crossbow until you get to level 3 or so. Daze is also an option.And burn a move action (or worse) to reload it? And hit normal AC instead of touch? That's only "tradition" because Wizards were limited to maybe four or five cantrips per day in 3.X.
If you could put Spell Storing on a crossbow I'd consider it, but when it's so much easier to just not oppose Evocation and keep Ray of Frost or Jolt in my loadout, I'll do that every time.
As Abraham noted, Acid Splash is conjuration. It has the same damage and range, and does a less resisted damage type. It would serve just as well as an early-level pea-shooter. Go ahead and oppose evocation. In fact, Acid Splash is better because it doesn't allow SR (though SR is unlikely at low level).
In fact, Acid Splash is better because it doesn't allow SR (though SR is unlikely at low level).
Precisely.
Who uses damage cantrips at 10th? Arcane tricksters, if they can add sneak attack damage.
No one else would burn a round on a cantrip at 10th.
Honestly I tend to go through the list backwards to arrive at the school(s) I don't want.
I know I want transmutation. That's where the god stuff is, and if you are playing a wizard you want the god stuff. Conjuration is my second favorite -- it's simply loaded with solid god stuff too, and mixes in some damage and meat shields to boot. Abjuration is simply needed if you are going to play with other wizards -- without it you're simply an idiot savant of a mage. Divination is what keeps you in the know, and as a caster you should know that being in the know is what actually makes you so damn powerful.
This means we are down to illusion, enchantment, necromancy, and evocation.
Illusion has great low level spells -- it drops off at higher levels but not completely and even then that simply means you don't have as many spells at higher level competing for your attention. Necromancy has some of the best debuffs, has several solid buffs, some knowledge choices, a means of dealing with a rather difficult opponent type (undead) and actually has some of the best high end damage spells in the game, as such I'm usually pretty loathed to give it up... and that's just if you are a 'good' guy and want to ignore the other undead options it provides. Now evocation isn't useless... but generallly you can look at the damage spells and expect only half of the effects to work between spell resistance, energy resistance and save throws you have three fail points on a regular basis, and that's ignoring how quickly evasion comes out and stays around, now it also has some nice area control spells but at the same time they aren't the only kids on the block and others can be more powerful and subtle -- a good combination. It takes some real work getting evocation up to its real blasting potential (but when you do LOOK OUT) and such dedication can eat up a lot of feats and resources that you might want to spend elsewhere. Enchantment has overrides from level one on up -- you simply cannot really rely on it with so many monster types and subtypes being immune to it and other counters so readily available. Yeah when and IF you get it off it can be very powerful... again IF and WHEN you get it to work, and even then you usually don't know when it might fail you leaving you in a bad spot with your until now loyal servant suddenly changing sides on you. Beyond this even at low level it's spell have HD caps meaning you'll quickly find that spells you want to rely on to fill lesser slots simply aren't practical to keep around -- something that is always frustrating.
For these reason enchantment is my easiest to give up school and evocation a distant second easiest -- again distant to enchantment... but still easier than the rest.
In fact, Acid Splash is better because it doesn't allow SR (though SR is unlikely at low level).Precisely.
Who uses damage cantrips at 10th? Arcane tricksters.
No one else would burn a round on a cantrip at 10th.
Counterpoint: Who regularly uses most cantrips at 10th level beyond the utility ones (message, prestidigitation, mending, light, read magic, detect magic, detect poison)?
I mean at least with acid splash if you screw up and have a golem in front of you and you somehow didn't prepare anything that didn't ignore SR beyond acid splash you got something (why you would do this? I don't know, but I have seen some noobs in my time).
Counterpoint: Who regularly uses most cantrips at 10th level beyond the utility ones (message, prestidigitation, mending, light, read magic, detect magic, detect poison)?In fact, Acid Splash is better because it doesn't allow SR (though SR is unlikely at low level).Precisely.
Who uses damage cantrips at 10th? Arcane tricksters.
No one else would burn a round on a cantrip at 10th.
Nobody. Except tricksters, and they don't really count for this discussion. Wizard, yo.
I mean at least with acid splash if you screw up and have a golem in front of you and you somehow didn't prepare anything that didn't ignore SR beyond acid splash you got something (why you would do this? I don't know, but I have seen some noobs in my time).
Why does it matter, again?
If my party's getting slaughtered by a golem, and I had nothing else to do but cast acid splash, I'd run away. Wizard, yo!
Actually, I wouldn't have it prepped after 3rd, anyway. I'd use a found crossbow for that, unless I was an evoker.
Actually, I wouldn't have it prepped after 3rd, anyway. I'd use a found crossbow for that, unless I was an evoker.
Probably still use the crossbow because you know, evoker and spell resistance...
But yeah the utility cantrips are where it's at... meh evocation does have spark and dancing lights, so I guess there is that.
Actually, I wouldn't have it prepped after 3rd, anyway. I'd use a found crossbow for that, unless I was an evoker.Probably still use the crossbow because you know, evoker and spell resistance...
Yeah, it's such a problem at 3rd.
But yeah the utility cantrips are where it's at... meh evocation does have spark and dancing lights, so I guess there is that.
QFT. Not to mention the other evo cantrips. They all do something worthwhile.
Would your party like to see in dungeons at 2nd level? Evocation has a constant solution.
Light up that enemy, and your archer has a target.
I would make Necromancy and Enchantment my opposition schools as I usually never use them unless they are my specialization. most of the wizards I play despise Necromancy and are more of a wizard thug so they would rather blast an opponent to bits then try to command them to their will. plus they desire to work with other willing people then not.
for the remaining schools here's the order.....
1.Evocation: rather blast a monster into oblivion then try to manipulate the battlefield. The sooner it's dead the better. liking Specialization due to strong combative ability and people who say it sucks generally don't like i do in wanting to pummel the monster to bits, just choose your energy. intense spell also helps in taking down the monster faster.
2.Transmutation: The ability to fly, move objects with your mind, and enhance the body to endure more, and give out more power when needed. shape-shifting also has its perks. liking Specialization due to its ability of enhancing physical powers as my wizard are generally staff fighting types and like to be just as tough as any fighter out there.
3.Illusion: it's powers of invisibility is useful and it's shadow spells can provide a useful substitute for evocation and conjuration spells. while not a huge master of battlefield control, the ability to scare your opponent to death or make yourself look greater then you really are is very useful. Liking Specialization due to permanent invisibility spell and illusions possibility, and generally go with the shadow subfield and shadowcaster archetype.
4.Abjuration: a must have school as its ability to counter other spells and provide protection are assets that should never be forsaken. However can't see it as a desirable specialization due to its tendency to favor fighting defensively all the time.
5.Divination: also a must have school as it provides sensory abilities that could change the direction of battle in your favor, and provide insight into the adventure at hand. Can't see as a desirable specialization choice due to only enhancing sensory abilities and providing no in-combat ability except for initiative bonus.
6.Conjuration: a nice flavor school for me as it allows the creation of temporary items, teleportation, summoning spells, and space creation spells. however, I don't find it likeable as a specialization field for a few reasons. the creation and extra-dimensional spell are TEMPORARY and I never have the time to summon something on the field, however the teleportation spells are useful. specializing grants me nothing less then a nice pet, and many spells can be substituted by shadow magic. however when the money is available and permanency spell is used, having a private space for myself is a nice retirement place after adventuring.
in conclusion, enchantment and necromancy are no-go schools for me. Abjuration and Divination are must haves but no need for specialization schools. Conjuration is a nice school to have but can be substituted by other fields of magic. Finally Evocation, Transmutation, and Illusion are schools of desired Specialization due to their benefits, powers and unique abilities.
Also less clear. The original question is pretty much the opposite of the new title. It's which magic schools do you prefer to take as opposed.
Thanks for pointing that out.
in terms of elemental schools I have....
1.Air:Flying plus lightning along with invisibility can be a devastating combo. definite specialization.
2.Fire:Fire power and immunity, great. Unless your dealing with creatures immune to fire, then you're screwed.
3.Wood:excellent in working with groups,not as strong solo.
4.Void:great anti-magic and sensory skill, perfect wizard wizard killer.
5.Water:great in adventures on the coast or in the seas. not as strong a power player in areas without large bodies of water.
6.Metal:expecting heavy amounts of metal constructs and armor wearing opponents, perfect. everything else, it's okay.
7.Earth:weakest in my opinion, not any love unless stuck underground.
my opinion unless you can predict any of the senerios stated in the specialization that would make it work, then go with Air. Fire in a campaign with alot of enemies that can be hurt by it. Wood in major teamwork campaigns. Void in a campaign filled with enemy wizards. water is an aquatic oriented campaign. metal when you are going to face alot of construct and armored foes. and never take earth unless you're going to be underground the whole time.
In terms of which schools i care least about I tend to not care about necromancy enchantment or evocation so those are the one's I get rid of the easiest.
Necromancy is a tiny list about dead things and I don't much care for the death side of magic as much as I like the healing kind of necromancy which mages dont get.
Enchantment: the more you use it on the enemy the more the enemy uses it on you. Dont give gms any ideas and I personally hate having my character ran by someone else.
Evocation: its been nerfed so bad that a single haste spell is resoundingly better almost every time.
Conjuration? I'll never give it up. I love me the secure shelter and mage mansion too much.
Illusion: I'd give this one up if it werent for the invisibility spells. I dont much care for shadow magic or trying to fool people.
Divination: that detect magic/detect poison at will stuff is too useful to give up so easily
Abjuration hasnt really been my forte ever but I'd like to think theres some quality defensive spells to be had.
Transmutation: always used to be my favorite school before they split it all up into creature types... Still too good to send down the river but its not nearly as fun as it used to be.
I would rarely pick evocation as my opposed school. Not because of the blast spell in it, (they can still be useful on occasion) but i think spells like heatstroke, telekinetic charge, resilient sphere and emergency force sphere are rather good.
See, I think its interesting how different people have different opinions on things like this.
I love Necromacy, and for most of the casters I have played I couldn't imagine choosing it for an opposition school.
I think I would pretty consistently take necromancy & enchantment. I just dont like the type of magic they represent, so I tend not to take them.
Evocation
Damage is for peasants with metal sticks!
I'd say Enchantment and Divination. Enchantment because it's very focused on, well, enchanting people or monsters, which has its issues. Divination is a school you never wanted to pick in 3.5, but in Pathfinder it's viable as you don't have to completely give it up, and you probably don't want to memorize Divinations in quantity. The only annoying thing is cantrips and Read Magic / Detect Magic.