Coup de Grâce Deals No Damage


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Dark Archive

Merry Yuletide!

So, something weird happened in our game last night. My sorcerer attempted a coup de grace on a sleeping target. It played out well and the target died, but it raised a question no one in our group could figure out or agree on.

My sorcerer deals 1d4-2 damage with his dagger. He potentially will deal zero damage (for 1 point of nonlethal damage). What would have happened concerning the sleeping target and the coup de grace if he ultimately dealt only 1 point of nonlethal damage? Does the target still make a save or die? If the target doesn't die, does a point of nonlethal damage wake it up?

And in general, can you perform a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage? Nothing in the rules for coup de grace mentions lethal or nonlethal. If so, does the damage affect the DC of the save?

Can nonlethal damage wake up a sleeping target? The sleep spell says wounding a sleeping target wakes it, but has no mention of damage.

And, while I'm asking lots of questions... Can you deal a coup de grace with non-weapons that deal damage, such a spells or spell-like abilities (magic missile, etc.)?

Thanks in advance!


YThe rules state you do a minimum of one point damage regardless of modifiers. How you you coming up with "potentially zero" damage and it being non lethal? At worst, you should be getting 2 damage (1d4-2 and 1d4-2 for the auto crit of a CdG). Which then forces a DC 12 Fort save or die.

RAW non lethal damage during a CdG doesn't change anything. IIRC excess non lethal damage causes lethal damage past the hit point value of the target. Meaning if you were using a scythe to do non lethal on a target with 8 hit points and a 10 CON but crit, you could still leave your target dying if not out right kill them from excessive damage (doing more than 16 would leave them below 0 and dying/bleeding, 26 damage would be instant death).

Assuming no other effects/influences any damage should wake the target, the target should even get a Perception check while you approach (with a modifier as per the table versus your stealth roll) to make the CdG.

Unless a spell is 'weapon like' CdG with it isn't possible. Read the first two lines of CdG, it states explicity what can be used to make the attack.


It's not 1d4-2 and 1d4-2 with a minimum of 1 each; it's 2d4-4 with a minimum of 1 once. Back to the point;

Dust, reading through the CDG rules, there isn't even anything preventing you from performing a coup-de-grace with a sap, which deals nonlethal damage.

If the damage really were negated down to 0, then I wouldn't allow a save. There are many special attacks that deal damage and have a rider effect, such as a snake's bite injecting poison, or a Stunning Fist; the protocol for these attacks is that if they deal no damage, the effect may not trigger.

But since the dagger is still dealing damage, and all the requirements for making the CDG are using a melee weapon without respect to damage type, it seems rules-legal.

How do you feel about the logic side of it? Do you feel you can justify a sleeping person being stabbed with a dagger so weakly it doesn't cause lethal damage but they still die?

Liberty's Edge

Dust Raven wrote:
And in general, can you perform a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage? Nothing in the rules for coup de grace mentions lethal or nonlethal. If so, does the damage affect the DC of the save?

I see this as a corner case that they did not consider when writing the rule. Personally, I would say no, but if my GM allowed it, I would go with it without argument.

Skylancer4 wrote:

YThe rules state you do a minimum of one point damage regardless of modifiers. How you you coming up with "potentially zero" damage and it being non lethal?

SRD wrote:
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.

[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html[/url]


Dust Raven wrote:


Can nonlethal damage wake up a sleeping target? The sleep spell says wounding a sleeping target wakes it, but has no mention of damage.

I don't think the rules answer this question. but as normal unarmed strikes deal nonlethal damage I am sure the answer is yes.

If I punch a sleeping guy in the face (or some other part) I am sure he will wake up. Unless I hit well enough to KO him. But that's unlikely.


I think it would be fair to call for the appropriate save in this case, even a DC 10 if 0 lethal or nonleathal damage was done.

It's really bad to be struck in the head while unconcious. People die from blows to the neck or head that might have only caused a headche in another situation all the time.

Dark Archive

Skylancer4 wrote:
Unless a spell is 'weapon like' CdG with it isn't possible. Read the first two lines of CdG, it states explicity what can be used to make the attack.

If I go by what the rules state explicitly, then you can never CdG with a natural weapon or a firearm, and only a monk can CdG with an unarmed strike. I'm fairly certain you can CdG with any of those, regardless of class, but the rules don't say you can. I'm guessing some spells fall into that category as well, but I'm wondering that the dividing line is. My guess is you can CdG with any spell which deals hit point damage, may target a single creature, and is able to crit. But like you said, the rules don't mention the use of spells any more than it mentions natural weapons.

Dark Archive

osopolare wrote:

I think it would be fair to call for the appropriate save in this case, even a DC 10 if 0 lethal or nonleathal damage was done.

It's really bad to be struck in the head while unconcious. People die from blows to the neck or head that might have only caused a headche in another situation all the time.

That's the call which was made during the game before the damage roll. As it worked out, I managed to deal 2 damage with the dagger, and the frog rolled a 4 on his save, so all worked out (except for the frog).


It's cool, he gets to be a ghost now. Lot more powerful.


If you strike me down, blab blab blab ... run <insert name>, run!

The all powerful ghost .... that's the best you got .... "run"


You cannot coup de grace with nonlethal damage, by definition. Coup de grace kills, nonlethal cannot.

Sczarni

Nonlethal damage can kill as well. As was already stated, any nonlethal damage sustained beyond the total maximum hp is treated as lethal damage. Suffer enough nonlethal damage and you WILL die. A coup de grace with nonlethal damage is perfectly within the rules.

Sczarni

next time use a Coup de grace with your acid splash cantrip, 1d3 on a crit is better than your 1d4-2 on a crit =D


I don't know that there are official rules for casting a spell as a CDG, but then, I also doubt that many GMs would take issue unless you're using spells that don't use attack rolls.

Sczarni

well considering you can apply feats like "weapon focus" and "improved critical" to them, any that would have an objection can be put into the "silly" category.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quote:
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

Acid splash is neither a melee weapon nor a bow or crossbow, so call me silly but I wouldn't allow it.

Sczarni

Good point, you should just use a crossbow it'll a) auto hit and crit and b) do d6/d8 x4.

Forget asking the silly gm to let you use a ranged attack that does 1d3, just whip that out.


Corren28 wrote:
Nonlethal damage can kill as well. As was already stated, any nonlethal damage sustained beyond the total maximum hp is treated as lethal damage. Suffer enough nonlethal damage and you WILL die. A coup de grace with nonlethal damage is perfectly within the rules.
Quote:
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening... When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

How exactly do you use non-real damage to kill somebody when it explicitly states nonlethal does not kill?


Vestrial wrote:
Corren28 wrote:
Nonlethal damage can kill as well. As was already stated, any nonlethal damage sustained beyond the total maximum hp is treated as lethal damage. Suffer enough nonlethal damage and you WILL die. A coup de grace with nonlethal damage is perfectly within the rules.
Quote:
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening... When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

How exactly do you use non-real damage to kill somebody when it explicitly states nonlethal does not kill?

Quote:

Staggered and Unconscious

When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.


Some Random Dood wrote:
Quote:

Staggered and Unconscious

When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

It's pretty stupid that's not in the nonlethal section. But it's not terribly germane in any case. We're not talking about knocking them out, then continuing to beat on them. Coup says you hit once, they have a chance to die. Except nonlethal is, well, nonlethal... (unless you beat them into submission and keep going)

Sczarni

so since they are out, you can now perform a coup de grace on em with that sap you've been banging on their nogging for a bit already with.

You're coming at this assuming they're full hp =P


lantzkev wrote:

so since they are out, you can now perform a coup de grace on em with that sap you've been banging on their nogging for a bit already with.

You're coming at this assuming they're full hp =P

lol. Beating on somebody til they die != coup de grace. =p

And it doesn't matter if they are full, or low, or even negative. In order to kill with nonlethal, you have to do nonlethal equal to their max hp +1 to get them to 'dying.' That's a lot of work. Certainly more than just 'bonk, you're dead.' =p

Edit: Guess I figured that wrong. You actually have to do double their max hp in nonlethal to kill them with it. More work than I thought. =p

Sczarni

nope, once they are out, you can coup de grace em, all non lethal damage is converted to lethal. Now they have to make a DC 10+dmg delt or die fort check.


lantzkev wrote:
nope, once they are out, you can coup de grace em, all non lethal damage is converted to lethal. Now they have to make a DC 10+dmg delt or die fort check.

You're wrong. The above quote is explicit. In order for nonlethal to convert to lethal, their current nonlethal damage must equal their max hp.

Sczarni

Vestrial, I think you're not reasoning this out.

You've done enough non-lethal to knock them out, so now you can coup de grace them.

When I stated this, I assumed you understood that they are knocked out when their non-lethal damage from the sap has reached or exceeded their total hp.

You give them one last thump on the head with that there sap as a coup de grace and you auto hit and crit and they have to make a fort or die save at this point.


lantzkev wrote:

Vestrial, I think you're not reasoning this out.

You've done enough non-lethal to knock them out, so now you can coup de grace them.

When I stated this, I assumed you understood that they are knocked out when their non-lethal damage from the sap has reached or exceeded their total hp.

You give them one last thump on the head with that there sap as a coup de grace and you auto hit and crit and they have to make a fort or die save at this point.

Oh, I thought you meant out as in, they are sleeping. I didn't know you were serious about beating them into unconscious, then killing them. At that point, who cares if it's a coup de grace or not? They are unconscious. Put a pillow over their head, choke them, stab them with a fork, do whatever. It's really academic at that point. But you cannot coup de grace a healthy (nonlethal < max hp) sleeping person with nonlethal.


Ryan. Costello wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:
And in general, can you perform a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage? Nothing in the rules for coup de grace mentions lethal or nonlethal. If so, does the damage affect the DC of the save?

I see this as a corner case that they did not consider when writing the rule. Personally, I would say no, but if my GM allowed it, I would go with it without argument.

Skylancer4 wrote:

YThe rules state you do a minimum of one point damage regardless of modifiers. How you you coming up with "potentially zero" damage and it being non lethal?

SRD wrote:
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html[/url]

You know, our group has always had it do 1 point lethal. Still finding things out after how long... lol


I'm surprised no one brought this up yet when talking about the Sap:

Quote:

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage

You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

So when trying to do a CdG by default you're opting to use this section, trying to deal lethal damage with your sap. (You're trying to kill them after all!)

You take a -4 on your attack roll.
However CdG automatically hits and crits so that doesn't even matter one bit.

Aka, CdG with a Sap deals lethal damage just as normal.

I admit that doesn't really answer the OP's question about low strength though, but it could be used as a guideline to say "CdG is so easy, that every damage is lethal, even if it would normally be non-lethal"


Good find, Quatar.

Hmmm. I had another hypothetical argument in support, but now I can't find the rule that states that death effects set your hit points equal to your - Con when the statistic matters.


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Joana wrote:
Quote:
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
Acid splash is neither a melee weapon nor a bow or crossbow, so call me silly but I wouldn't allow it.

So you won't allow a Coup de Grace with a throwing axe? Or a javalin? What about a pistol? Or a musket? Or a blunderbuss? I can coup de grace you with a brass knuckle, but I can't with a naval cannon at point blank?

That's silly.


A throwing axe and javelins can be used as melee weapons as well, so those aren't a problem. In fact most/all thrown weapons can be used as an improvised melee weapon, and the -2 or so you get to attack really doesn't matter on a CdG.

Other weapons like a sling though wouldn't work. You can use it as a makeshift garrote I guess and use it that way, but that wouldn't do the normal weapon damage. Some of the other weapons would follow the same logic.

And the rules was written before firearms, so it makes sense to say firearms work just as well. I assume 99% of the GMs will rule it that way too.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
so it makes sense to say firearms work just as well.

If you're going outside the listed rules for firearms, why not for something like a ranged touch spell?

Really, like anything else, it's a judgement call.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Because a touch attack spell is magic, and that works different.

Putting a crossbow to someone's head and pulling the trigger, or a pistol really isn't a big difference though.

I guess when they made the Firearms rules no one actually thought about it, but it seems pretty clear to me that CdG working with Firearms is RAI.

Touch attack spells existed when CdG was written though and it was specifically excluded, or rather not included.


Spells that use attack rolls are much like weapons. You can perform critical hits with them; you can even increase their damage with feats (Weapon Specialization: Ray). 3.5 even had a section for 'weapon-like spells' that made them very consistent with weapon rules, although Pathfinder has yet to take an official stance on it.

You say that spells were deliberately left out of being included in CDGs, but that may not be compatible with your stance on firearms being okay (ad hominem argument, awaaaaaaay!). You can use the same logic to say that, given the CDG rules already existed when they released firearms, their decision not to allow them to perform CDGs must be intentional.

So the argument that spells being unable to CDG is intentional and firearms accidentally unmentioned has equal strength as the argument that spells must have been an oversight and guns were deliberately unable to CDG.

To play devil's advocate, however, if you allowed creatures to perform CDGs by increasing casting times to Full Round Actions, Scorching Ray would break conformity since, even as a single spell, it would allow attacks on multiple creatures (multiple CDGs? CDG plus bonus attacks?).


Quatar wrote:
Because a touch attack spell is magic, and that works different.

That's not true with ranged touch attacks, which count as weapons (you can specialize, take weapon focus, improved critical or other feats.

Actually, you can coup de grace with Shocking Grasp, as it count as a weapon. You can't with scorching ray, because it is not listed under "bows and crossbow", but you can't with a musket for the same reason, period.

Besides that, I find silly that you can't coup de grace with a javelin (and I mean *throwing* the javelin) if you are adjacent. Or with a Ballista, or a naval cannon, or with a laser gun from Numeria, just because it's not listed under the rule. But hey, to each with its own.

Sczarni

I'd be okay with someone Coup De grace with a fireball, as long as they were adjacent =P


For performing CDGs with effects not listed in the Core rulebook, I think I would at least require the following:

* The effect must be 'weapon-like', that is, it must use an attack roll
* If performing a CDG with a ranged attack, you must be adjacent to the target
* You must spend at least a Full-Round Action to perform a CDG. If you are casting a spell whose casting time is shorter than that, you must increase it to a full round
* Attacks of Opportunity are provoked as normal; it is possible for a character to provoke Attacks of Opportunity for casting a spell, and for using a ranged attack, and for performing a CDG.

I'm thinking about adding a stipulation that any attacks made as part of the CDG must be focused on the same target. It seems to me that CDGs should work similarly for each character, so I'm not sure a spellcaster should easily be able to CDG an opponent with Scorching Ray while simultaneously attacking two other targets.

Sczarni

/agree

I think as long as you can meet the pre-reqs for coup de grace normally you should be able to with whatever.

How cool would it be to see a wizard do coup de grace with spontaneous immolation?

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Rule of cool.
If my players want to CDG an unconscious enemy with a scorching ray or even magic missile, I'll let them. Provided they are adjacent to their target.
I'd fluff it like the spell was going off in their mouth or eyes. Its cool, and not the optimal use of resources (ie not broken). What's not to like?


Troubleshooter wrote:

For performing CDGs with effects not listed in the Core rulebook, I think I would at least require the following:

* The effect must be 'weapon-like', that is, it must use an attack roll
* If performing a CDG with a ranged attack, you must be adjacent to the target
* You must spend at least a Full-Round Action to perform a CDG. If you are casting a spell whose casting time is shorter than that, you must increase it to a full round
* Attacks of Opportunity are provoked as normal; it is possible for a character to provoke Attacks of Opportunity for casting a spell, and for using a ranged attack, and for performing a CDG.

I'm thinking about adding a stipulation that any attacks made as part of the CDG must be focused on the same target. It seems to me that CDGs should work similarly for each character, so I'm not sure a spellcaster should easily be able to CDG an opponent with Scorching Ray while simultaneously attacking two other targets.

Weapon like should probably be defined as something not 'instantaneous' as well. A flame blade would work as it is used as a scimitar and would essentially be a melee weapon. Fireball, not so much...

And while 'rule of cool' works for a home game, organized play doesn't allow for it and a lot of posters come to the rules forum because they need to know what does and doesn't fly by the book.

Dark Archive

Thank you everyone for your thought and replies.

I've been thinking a lot about the use of spells for the purpose of a CdG, and I think I've come to a conclusions regarding that. A spell may be used to perform a CdG, provided it's effect may be discharged as a separate action from the casting of the spell. Flame blade, pyrotechnics and any touch spell which deals hit point damage would qualify. The reason is that you would cast the spell in one round, then (holding the charge if necessary) perform the CdG the following round as a full round action as normal. Ray spells and similar could only be used if quickened or otherwise reduced to a swift or free action.

As far as performing a CdG with a weapon or effect that deals non-lethal damage, I'm still open to rules interpretations. When I run PFS, I'll rule that if the damage is reduced below 1, then 1 point of nonlethal damage is applied to the target and the target still makes a DC 11 fort save for dies, and if sleeping (from a sleep spell or similar) would wake up from taking the point of damage should he survive. At least until I'm convinced I should be doing otherwise.

Sczarni

dust did you miss the rule quote above that states you may do lethal, you just take a -4 to the attack roll?

Every non-lethal weapon in the game can do lethal in a coup de grace attack

Dark Archive

lantzkev wrote:

dust did you miss the rule quote above that states you may do lethal, you just take a -4 to the attack roll?

Every non-lethal weapon in the game can do lethal in a coup de grace attack

Didn't miss that and I'm very familiar with it. My original question related to a different instance of dealing nonlethal. Specifically when damage modifiers on a weapon result in damage of less than 1, and thus result in 1 point of nonlethal. There's nothing that can turn that into lethal damage (well, unless the target has already taken a LOT of nonlethal damage). This can also happen with merciful weapons when set to deal nonlethal damage (no chance for lethal damage unless you turn the ability off).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dust Raven wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Unless a spell is 'weapon like' CdG with it isn't possible. Read the first two lines of CdG, it states explicity what can be used to make the attack.
If I go by what the rules state explicitly, then you can never CdG with a natural weapon or a firearm, and only a monk can CdG with an unarmed strike. I'm fairly certain you can CdG with any of those, regardless of class, but the rules don't say you can. I'm guessing some spells fall into that category as well, but I'm wondering that the dividing line is. My guess is you can CdG with any spell which deals hit point damage, may target a single creature, and is able to crit. But like you said, the rules don't mention the use of spells any more than it mentions natural weapons.

The natural weapon is a melee weapon was covered in another thread and the conclusion, based on the rules and developers citations, was that natural weapons are melee weapons.

Dark Archive

Diego Rossi wrote:
The natural weapon is a melee weapon was covered in another thread and the conclusion, based on the rules and developers citations, was that natural weapons are melee weapons.

Fair enough, but there are a lot of threads which I haven't come across and if it's in the FAQ I missed it.

Would you know of any clarification for the use of spells or firearms for CdG?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quatar wrote:
Because a touch attack spell is magic, and that works different.

That's not true with ranged touch attacks, which count as weapons (you can specialize, take weapon focus, improved critical or other feats.

Actually, you can coup de grace with Shocking Grasp, as it count as a weapon. You can't with scorching ray, because it is not listed under "bows and crossbow", but you can't with a musket for the same reason, period.

Besides that, I find silly that you can't coup de grace with a javelin (and I mean *throwing* the javelin) if you are adjacent. Or with a Ballista, or a naval cannon, or with a laser gun from Numeria, just because it's not listed under the rule. But hey, to each with its own.

You can "count as weapons (you can specialize, take weapon focus, improved critical or other feats" rays, not ranged touch attacks.

The problem with using ranged touch attacks or rays to deliver a coup de grace is that they don't work like regular weapons, they use touch attack armor class. So a target covered head to toe by heavy armor with heavy fortification wouldn't be protected against them, even if the caster can't see and target the right points to kill the sleeping guy.
As I see ti the aiming system of the spell isn't so precise that it will allow the caster to deliver a coup de grace.

Edit: "Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, ... ". the spell damage isn't delivered as a full-round action, so you can't use it to coup de grace.

Ballista: "Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow" so it can be used as a crossbow if you are at least large and so capable to handle it.

Throw weapons: those weapons don't fly in straight line, so you can aim with enough precision to be capable to deliver a coup de grace.

Firearms and lasers are directed fire weapons, so they should be capable to deliver a coup de grace.

The Exchange

The intent with a CdG seems to be that it's a sub-set of critical hits (hence the whole thing about not being able to CdG creatures immune to critical hits), so really, anything you can use point-blank which could potentially inflict a critical hit should qualify.

I'm not sure why anyone would insist on trying to throw a throwing weapon as a CdG instead of just doing a melee attack with it - it hits automatically anyway, and Strength is what the damage is based on in either case. Maybe they want to screw the extra +1 damage out of the Point-Blank Shot Feat for an extra +1 DC to the CdG save? The bow / crossbow thing seems (to me) to be simply confirming that you can shoot someone in the head (or whatever) at point blank without resorting to using the weapon as an improvised club.

The idea that a spell's casting time eliminates it from use as a CdG seems a little odd to me... it's not like you're getting to cast the spell any faster and, as noted above, if the spell's accurate enough to potentially cause a critical hit, then IMHO it should be accurate enough for a CdG if you cast it point blank. Besides, who doesn't want Mortal Kombat style fatalities in their game? ;)

CdG with an area-effect spell (or weapon, for that matter) shouldn't be allowed, IMHO, 'cos they're not accurate enough for criticals in the first place.

Zero-damage CdG is easy: DC 10 + damage dealt = DC 10. Job done.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"The idea that a spell's casting time eliminates it from use as a CdG seems a little odd to me... it's not like you're getting to cast the spell any faster "

Actually if you try to deliver a Coup de Grace with a spell you are trying to do exactly that.
A coup de grace is a full round action, casting a spell is normally a standard action, so doing both things in the same round is acting faster. You get a free attack in the same round in which you cast the spell but that isn't the same thing of a full round attack.
That would remove casting a spell and delivering a a coup de grace in the same round

We are left with:
- held touch attacks spells. Those can probably deliver a CdG;
- spells that create weapon like effects, like flame blade, that are wielded exactly like weapons and so can make CdG.
Both can't deliver a CdG in the round in which they are cast.

The Exchange

Diego Rossi wrote:

... Actually if you try to deliver a Coup de Grace with a spell you are trying to do exactly that.

A coup de grace is a full round action, casting a spell is normally a standard action, so doing both things in the same round is acting faster. You get a free attack in the same round in which you cast the spell but that isn't the same thing of a full round attack...

Making a melee attack is a standard action too, but there's no problem with doing that as part of a CdG... so I still don't get the distinction? :/

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Melee attack substituted by a full round attack to deliver a CdG: good

Spell casting action plus untyped action to get a full round CdG: bad.

To what actions I can add that untyped action to get a CdG?

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