When you issue your players starting wealth, do you allow them to pay half price for items they could create with feats as if they made them themselves? My players generally favor this view (of course) but I worry about the unbalancing effect as it more or less doubles their wealth and/or rewards casters while penalizing melee classes.
I could always increase challenges and such but was curious what your thoughts were.
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It should, as it would otherwise invalidate the feat. You can put limits on the max value of any given item, like no item worth more than 25% or 50% of wealth by level. That would keep uber powerful items in check. You could also further limit it by making them only make things for themselves or put a stricter limit on the value of things made for the group pre-creation, like 33% value max for self for any single item, and 10% for others.
Personally? I made mistakes in my last AP (Kingmaker), one of which was giving the party normal WBL in gold for several levels rather than a mix of items, so I ended up with so many wealth-related headaches without possibility of time-based safeguards that I won't be allowing IC feats for a while.
I may not be able to argue for balance, but I can argue from consistency. If you allow your party wizard an IC feat from level one and he gains the benefits of artificially-increased wealth for nine levels and you have a new wizard player join with an IC feat but you don't allow him to use it retroactively, then two characters end up looking differently, even if they have identical builds. I generally view that as bad design and/or arbitration.
On the other hand, can you think of any way that allowing them retroactive use would cause a new character to wind up more powerful than if they HAD been adventuring with the party through the campaign?
On the other hand, can you think of any way that allowing them retroactive use would cause a new character to wind up more powerful than if they HAD been adventuring with the party through the campaign?
A Wizard with say, Craft Ring, would be able to spend a lot more on crafting rings upon creation than a Wizard who had been adventuring with the party since level 1.
Here's some words of wisdom on that subject.
"Table 12 –4 can also be used to budget gear for
characters starting above 1st level, such as a new
character created to replace a dead one. Characters
should spend no more than half their total wealth on
any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that
are built after 1st level should spend no more than
25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and
protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on
disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and
10% on ordinary gear and coins. Dif ferent character
types might spend their wealth dif ferently than these
percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might
spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on
other magic items and disposable items"
"As a general rule, PCs should not own any magic item worth more
than half their total character wealth, so make sure to
check before awarding expensive magic items."
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
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Link to FAQ on it, the text of which was provided above by Troubleshooter
Also to help explain it, here is an example magic item:
Slippers of Spider Climbing
Aura faint transmutation; CL 4th
Slot feet; Price 4,800 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
Description
When worn, a pair of these slippers enables movement on vertical surfaces or even upside down along ceilings, leaving the wearer's hands free. Her climb speed is 20 feet. Severely slippery surfaces—icy, oiled, or greased surfaces—make these slippers useless. The slippers can be used for 10 minutes per day, split up as the wearer chooses (minimum 1 minute per use).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, spider climb; Cost 2,400 gp
So a higher level wizard who starts with "Craft Wondrous Items" could start with Slippers of Spider Climb, but they would only count as 2400 GP cost for WBL and not as the 4800 GP price (at least according to the FAQ).
Thanks for the replies all and for the find from Sean, Troubleshooter. I appreciate the input! As many of you said, I don't want to penalize the player for taking a feat they then can't use. I think imposing some of the percentage limits is a good middle of the road solution. Fun's the name of the game, after all. Much appreciated!
This creates a lot of possibilities for 1st level wizards - take the money trait = 500gp for scrolls/Spells :D
For me it varies game to game. But one thing lots of people tend to overlook is that crafting feats only give a theoretical maximum of double effective equipment.
In practice an adventuring party doesn't really get this because they often find items that are already usable to them.
Wizard was planning on crafting a cloak of resistance +1. Oh, the party just found one of those and decides the wizard will get the best use out of it. So he doesn't need to craft it anymore, but he also doesn't get to save half gold on it.
Bracers of armor? Staff of fireball? Metamagic rod? Party just slew an evil wizard and finds of stash of various scrolls? These are all loot towards the groups combined WBL, but the crafter doesn't get to save money on these things they end up using.
What this all really boils down to is depending on loot acquired crafting feats could only be worth a 25% bonus to WBL, or 10%, or 40%, or whatever.
I'd say just try to implement controls as to the highest-value item they can craft at one time: 90% of your wealth tied into a single object is apparently a bad thing.
Yes it is.
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I allow my characters to craft items with their starting wealth.
I also allow my villains to do the same :)
When I DM'd 3.x, I allowed my characters to have 1 Item Crafted Prior to Game Start (I didn't usually start games higher than level 2 though).
I did have the limitation that the item couldn't have a unmod'd cost of 50% of WBL.
So a 5th level Character, with a WBL of 10,500gp, could come in with 1 Crafted Item of up to 5,250 value and cost the character up to 2,625 (so at least 7,875gp left to spend). I haven't DM'd PF, but I would carry that forward if it applied.
I allow my characters to craft items with their starting wealth.
I also allow my villains to do the same :)
Unless they are crafting and using really expensive consumables that is usually a bad idea. It ends up giving the group even more 'wealth.'