In future contests could submitters see their item statistics during the voting process?


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

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Star Voter Season 6

I humbly request that in future contests submitters have the ability to view their submission's statistics during the round 1 voting period. The ability to view the number of "votes for", "votes against" and "ties" would make the month long voting process less frightful! Also, seeing how these statistics develop might provide more insight as to whether a submitter should start working on whatever round 2 submissions would be. This is my first year participating and I have never done anything like this so I'm quite curious to know how my item fares (and I am one of those "instant gratification" types). I am quite hopeful I might have come up with something and simultaneously quite anxious I have produced the game design equivalent of a "turd". Save us from ourselves Paizo!

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 8

After the voting is over this shouldn't be a problem, but during, it could affect the vote, some people might cry fowl or ask people to vote for their item, etc.

Star Voter Season 6

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This could lead to more people trying to "subtly" defending their item on the forums if they knew it was doing bad.

The anonymity ensures people aren't sitting around freaking out that their item is doing poorly.

And, don't forget, the judges still have final say, so what if your item had more votes than anyone but the judges still felt there were better items, how upset would you be?

Just relax and do a rough outline of your archetype, there is enough info on the Riverlands online to at least get an idea of where to start.

The Exchange Star Voter Season 6

Fleshgrinder wrote:
Just relax and do a rough outline of your archetype, there is enough info on the Riverlands online to at least get an idea of where to start.

Good advice.

Star Voter Season 6

Thanks all. Some good points made here. Now time to eat some Yule cookies! :)

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Standback

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Oh dear god if we had that I would stay glued to my computer and go absolutely insane

Spoiler:
In other words, please do this, provided I get into the Top 8 this year

Scarab Sages

Given the immense amount of butthurt, on the 'Critique my Item' threads every year, can you imagine if the feedback were being given while the voting was live?


Snorter wrote:
Given the immense amount of butthurt, on the 'Critique my Item' threads every year, can you imagine if the feedback were being given while the voting was live?

I predict nerdrage of apocalyptic proportion should this suggestion come to fruition.

Dedicated Voter Season 6

So much so that we'd likely have no time for the actual voting.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan

Fleshgrinder wrote:
The anonymity ensures people aren't sitting around freaking out that their item is doing.

Does this mean I'm the only one freaking out?

RPG Superstar 2014 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7 aka Belladonna Blue

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:
The anonymity ensures people aren't sitting around freaking out that their item is doing.
Does this mean I'm the only one freaking out?

Nope. I'm freaking out regardless. Even if I had access to my item stats, I think I'd be too chicken to look.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

I don't think this would serve much of a purpose other than to hurt peoples feelings if their item wasn't getting as many votes as they think it should.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

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I find it amusing that every year they make the contest more and more transparent. And yet, every year, someone pops up to say it's not enough and they want to see further behind-the-scenes. As if that's somehow going to make the contest better. I've played on both sides of this thing. And let me assure you, it wouldn't improve the contest. Even though you might think it would, it won't.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Who said about improving anything? We want to stroke our pride and sense of superiority over others!

:P

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Would it be possible for those who don't make the top 32, on their request when they post in the inevitable "Critique My Whatsit" thread, to learn the ranking of their item at the end?

It wouldn't have to be an "out of" statement, so the total number of entries would still be unknown.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

It seems to me that if people can see their own statistics during voting, it will become more and more about them and less and less about selecting the top 32.

I can see it now. "Post here if you have more than 200 votes." "How many votes do you have?" "Oh man, I think I'm close, I have to get all my friends and family to vote!"

I can see some tweaks to the process especially in regards to items known to be low on the list, but telling people how they're doing? That isn't high on the list.

(even though I'm dying to know :)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

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Neil Spicer wrote:
I find it amusing that every year they make the contest more and more transparent. And yet, every year, someone pops up to say it's not enough and they want to see further behind-the-scenes. As if that's somehow going to make the contest better. I've played on both sides of this thing. And let me assure you, it wouldn't improve the contest. Even though you might think it would, it won't.

He's right.

Honestly, I think it would hurt you far more than it would help you.

I readily concede that you need to read the feedback about your entry. And it probably helps to scout around and see what people like about other contestant's entries.

But beyond that? Spending too much time and mental energy on the messageboards can be a detriment. Reading too much into comments can be a detriment. Paying too much attention to who is the current "darling" or "fan favorite" or "who is trending" is AN ABSOLUTE A SCREW UP ON YOUR PART. IGNORE THAT CRAP IF YOU HAVE ANY SENSE AT ALL.

Fact of life: front runners can often nose dive, and dark horses can win in the end. The reverse is also true. Which means, what really matters is the quality of your entry and your ability to improve.

This suggestion will do nothing but have you psyching yourself out and chasing your tail like a dog—when your time and energy belongs on your entry.

Everybody has some piece of RPG Superstar Advice. Here's mine, and I probably won't repeat this in another thread or anywhere else.

Once you make the Top 32, the most important round is the next round. Never look back. The only possible exception is the final round which requires some careful thought.

It doesn't matter the slightest bit what margin you pass into the next Round. Popularity is fleeting like frost. Quality trumps it every single time.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Jim Groves wrote:
Quality trumps it every single time.

Speaking of which, I owe you a review! Curse the business of the holidays :)

(Okay, not really, I love the holidays. But they are pretty darn busy)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Thanks Gbonehead!

***********

Hey folks, I'm sorry I got all passionate and yelled. But I really mean this sincerely. The message boards are a useful tool when you use them appropriately.

They are a dangerous distraction that can work against you—if you pay too much attention to them.

Read your feedback. Smile and wave. Say thanks. I can't tell you how much is too much when it comes to posting, but if you're trying to build a relationship with the voters, please remember the strength of your entry fulfills that function too.

I'm just trying to spare you some grief.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

Jim Groves wrote:
Fact of life: front runners can often nose dive, and dark horses can win in the end. The reverse is also true. Which means, what really matters is the quality of your entry and your ability to improve.

As a recent nose-diving front-runner, I heartily agree with everything Jim said here. Listen to him, folks!

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

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I really don't think we'll ever release any individual item's rank, there's just too much potential for grar there. If you want to know people's opinion about your item, post in the "critique my item" thread after the top 32 are announced.

As to display item statistics during voting, that is both computationally infeasible and would also skew the results. We really do need voters to judge each item in the pair on their own merits, compared directly to the other item, not in an overall scheme of things, which is what displaying item statistics would lead to.

Sovereign Court Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

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Gary Teter wrote:

I really don't think we'll ever release any individual item's rank, there's just too much potential for grar there. If you want to know people's opinion about your item, post in the "critique my item" thread after the top 32 are announced.

As to display item statistics during voting, that is both computationally infeasible and would also skew the results. We really do need voters to judge each item in the pair on their own merits, compared directly to the other item, not in an overall scheme of things, which is what displaying item statistics would lead to.

If I had the option to see the statistics for my own item - I would turn it off, for just the reasons that Jim mentions. Too much potential for messing with my own mind and spending energy in the wrong place.

I can say though that seeing some general voting statistics once the Top 32 is announced would be of great interest. I understand that Paizo has historically not released the exact number of applicants, but some information on voting trends, number of voters and a general sense of how this Cordocet thing worked from a back end view would be enlightening. Basically anything you guys decide to share will be devoured by those of us that are proving to be RPG Superstar junkies.

I need my fix, man!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Hodge Podge

I think the one thing I'd like to know is the final ranking of each of the top 32. I'd be really interested in exactly who came out on top!

Then again, that could color future voting trends as well, which would be a shame considering the difference between the "1st seed" entry and the "32nd seed" entry could be on the order of only a few votes. Maybe it had best be left a mystery~

Sovereign Court Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

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I think specific voting ranks do more damage than good. While interesting to know, I wouldn't want to be in the Top 32 only to find out that my item had been ranked #64 in voting. Again, too much potential to psych yourself out.

If someone makes the Top 32, they should just get to enjoy that fact - and work on their Archetype! Not obsess over a ranking that has no actual value to the contest.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

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Exactly. There's two relevant ranks:

1. You made the top 32.
2. You didn't.

Nothing else is relevant to the contest :)


I would love to know how my item did but at the same time, with such little time between them announcing the winners and when the Archetypes are due it would only be a distraction. So what everyone else is saying is the right way to look at it, you don't have enough time to look backwards, and either you make it or you don't. Just follow Fleshgrinder's advice:

Fleshgrinder wrote:
Just relax and do a rough outline of your archetype, there is enough info on the Riverlands online to at least get an idea of where to start.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

Just making a couple points:

Jim Groves wrote:
Once you make the Top 32, the most important round is the next round. Never look back.

This is true. However, some people vote for lesser entries in Round 2 because that contestant's Round 1 item was so good.

As a contestant, no, don't look back. But voters can and do, and there's nothing that can be done about that.

If someone had serious issues with an item during the public voting, and that item makes the Top 32--something that's possible for the first time this year--they'll be that much more prepared to find problems with their archetype.

gbonehead wrote:

Exactly. There's two relevant ranks:

1. You made the top 32.
2. You didn't.

Nothing else is relevant to the contest :)

Unless someone drops out and you're an alternate. That's a bit relevant.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Respectfully Garrett, I believe Gbonehead and I were speaking only about the contestants.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

Jim Groves wrote:
Respectfully Garrett, I believe Gbonehead and I were speaking only about the contestants.

Agreed and understood.


I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Jerrycnh wrote:
I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.

You only see the top 32 once revealed. You should keep a copy of all your own work, that way if you don't make top 32, you can post for feedback in the open discussions that follow the reveal. Plus it is part of your portfolio which may be needed to show what you can do elsewhere.

Star Voter Season 6

Nazard wrote:

Would it be possible for those who don't make the top 32, on their request when they post in the inevitable "Critique My Whatsit" thread, to learn the ranking of their item at the end?

It wouldn't have to be an "out of" statement, so the total number of entries would still be unknown.

Actual ranking I think would not be that useful. I wouldn't mind seeing a % though. Top 10% probably corresponds to what would be in the keep folder.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka mamaursula

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:
The anonymity ensures people aren't sitting around freaking out that their item is doing.
Does this mean I'm the only one freaking out?

I'm freaking out and I didn't even enter this year. The two things may not be related though.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka mamaursula

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jerrycnh wrote:
I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.

What do you mean you don't remember it? Did you just make it up on the fly in the submission box in one sitting?

I have no really nice way of saying this, but if that is how you put your item together and then sent the first draft, it's pretty unlikely you won't see your item again. I know I personally put several hours into editing items for others who asked for help. I can't imagine what kind of time I would have put into an item I would have created for my own submission.

I have said this before and will say this again, this contest is the longest job interviewing process I have ever seen and if you don't approach it with the respect of a serious career offer as the final prize, you aren't ready to enter the contest. My husband keeps trying to get me to enter with him, but I turn him down every year and will continue to do so. This isn't my dream career, it's his and while I can see him winning it, it's not for me.


I have Word docs of every item I've submitted to RPG Superstar, even the really lame one I tossed in the first year. On the bright side, the core idea of that really bad item gave me the inspiration to develop this.

So, yeah. Save everything.

Sovereign Court Star Voter Season 6

I know I would love to see more statistics.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For me, I would like maybe another tag between marathon and champion, maybe at 2,500 called Champion's Squire or something like that.

During voting, maybe when you get to within 25% of the next tag, it could say "keep voting, just 111 votes till you become dedicated!"

That would do for me, thanks! :)

Star Voter Season 6

My only request would be to know if during a cull of the items could those culled be notified>

Also what anthony said

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka SmiloDan

It would be neat if you got a daily (or weekly) email telling you how many votes your item got. It would be private, and you would at least feel like you were getting some kind of feedback during the waiting process.

Sure, there would probably be a "How Many Votes Did You Get Today?" thread, but it would be very illuminating. You would know how many votes others would say they are getting.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7

Anthony Adam wrote:
Jerrycnh wrote:
I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.
You only see the top 32 once revealed. You should keep a copy of all your own work, that way if you don't make top 32, you can post for feedback in the open discussions that follow the reveal. Plus it is part of your portfolio which may be needed to show what you can do elsewhere.

He could be in the same boat as me and just not have access to where he saved it at the moment. I saved all my RPGSS work and then forgot to Dropbox it to myself before I left for vacation. Unless someone saved it, I won't be able to post for feedback either. I hope someone did.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:
Anthony Adam wrote:
Jerrycnh wrote:
I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.
You only see the top 32 once revealed. You should keep a copy of all your own work, that way if you don't make top 32, you can post for feedback in the open discussions that follow the reveal. Plus it is part of your portfolio which may be needed to show what you can do elsewhere.
He could be in the same boat as me and just not have access to where he saved it at the moment. I saved all my RPGSS work and then forgot to Dropbox it to myself before I left for vacation. Unless someone saved it, I won't be able to post for feedback either. I hope someone did.

You will be fine if that's the case, just post it up to the threads when you return from vacation and I (and probably other fans of the competition) will be able to asses it and give you constructive feedback. We do quite often work through the "feedback for me" requests as and when we can, so no rush :)

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter Season 6

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Saint Caleth wrote:
Anthony Adam wrote:
Jerrycnh wrote:
I hope they show you your entry at the end, because I've pretty much forgotten it.
You only see the top 32 once revealed. You should keep a copy of all your own work, that way if you don't make top 32, you can post for feedback in the open discussions that follow the reveal. Plus it is part of your portfolio which may be needed to show what you can do elsewhere.
He could be in the same boat as me and just not have access to where he saved it at the moment. I saved all my RPGSS work and then forgot to Dropbox it to myself before I left for vacation. Unless someone saved it, I won't be able to post for feedback either. I hope someone did.

I copy/pasted each item I saw into reject and keep word docs (I think I saw all but about 50 or so items based upon what a couple of posters are predicting). Once the top 32 have been revealed, PM the name and I'll PM it back to you if I've got it. Of course even better is if you make top 32, then Paizo will do this publically for you instead. Best of luck; hope for you it is the latter.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

@Herremann, if you have a list of all the item names you saw during voting, I'd be interested in comparing my list to it to see how many I missed. I have a handy list in Google Drive which I can share if you want to check if there are any you didn't see. I love statistics and I hate it that my list is incomplete. :D

Also, if you want to compare your list of Keeps to mine, that's also possible.

Liberty's Edge Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

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If this were to become reality (which it won't; we have sufficient commentary by the decision-makers to know) it will end badly.

Even without this visibility, we have had people going berserk (more or less) over why their item wasn't selected for the Top 32. Some of them have even been given specific critiques, from the judges indicating why the item wasn't selected and some have even been given suggestions on how to improve subsequent entries.

I do not believe being able to see the voting statistics, along with ratings for our items, would be constructive or prudent.

If you want to know why you didn't make the Top 32, man up and ask in the Critique My Item thread, take what is given, and improve upon your entry. Anything else, any other metric, is a waste of time and a distraction from what really matters.

gbonehead wrote:

Exactly. There's two relevant ranks:

1. You made the top 32.
2. You didn't.

Nothing else is relevant to the contest :)

Wise words and utterly true.

Sovereign Court Star Voter Season 6

The message I'm receiving here is that Paizo's customers are too immature, childlike, unstable or not possessed of the requisite critical faculties to deal with competition. Have I misunderstood?

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7

I think you're going out of your way to get offended.

Liberty's Edge Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Raphael wrote:
The message I'm receiving here is that Paizo's customers are too immature, childlike, unstable or not possessed of the requisite critical faculties to deal with competition. Have I misunderstood?

You're proving your own point.

Dedicated Voter Season 6

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think it'd be more accurate to say many of the serious RPGSS competitors can take their licks as gracefully as one might hope, but a few people in the past have proved that isn't always the case. Again, you get all types when you have an open call for enteries, including actual kids.

It's supposed to be fun and educational, so no one wants to go out of their way to invite extra butthurt.

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