Commonly Overlooked Tactics


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Dark Archive

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If you can cast it, a wand of vanish in one of them super special wrist sheaths is better than the potion option. It doesn't provoke, and you'll still have a move action to flee with before you become visible again at the start of your next turn.

Sovereign Court

Without ranks of spell craft they will only know that you disappeared and while they might suspect that you are just invisible and still standing there you could also have done a large number of other effects to get away.

Just saying.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

Low level witch (or dual-cursed oracle) with not much to do? Wand of ill-omen. Level 1 spell, no save, and best used before someone else casts a save-or-suck spell. Just remember: It's mind-affecting and is subject to SR. Once you're higher it won't be as useful....until you get improved familiar and have your familiar use it before you cast a spell.

Dark Archive

nice. Gonna get a wand of Ill-Omen once I get my Diabolist Imp Animal Companion.

Dark Archive

Morgen wrote:

Without ranks of spell craft they will only know that you disappeared and while they might suspect that you are just invisible and still standing there you could also have done a large number of other effects to get away.

Just saying.

Assuming teleportation looks anything like invisibility, assuming they've never seen teleportation or invisibility before, etc.

Invisibility is also more common, and they have nothing to really lose by striking in the square you were in.

Dark Archive Venture-Agent, Washington—Redmond

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
Morgen wrote:

Without ranks of spell craft they will only know that you disappeared and while they might suspect that you are just invisible and still standing there you could also have done a large number of other effects to get away.

Just saying.

Assuming teleportation looks anything like invisibility, assuming they've never seen teleportation or invisibility before, etc.

Invisibility is also more common, and they have nothing to really lose by striking in the square you were in.

Nothing to lose except their action :-p

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

We should totally start a new thread with all these things mentioned in the first post, just to condense everything. I'd do it, but I'm busy until Sunday.


Yiroep wrote:
Low level witch (or dual-cursed oracle) with not much to do? Wand of ill-omen. Level 1 spell, no save, and best used before someone else casts a save-or-suck spell. Just remember: It's mind-affecting and is subject to SR. Once you're higher it won't be as useful....until you get improved familiar and have your familiar use it before you cast a spell.

This is the biggest reason for taking Improved Familiar as a Witch. Being able to cast Ill Omen (via familiar) and then follow that with a sleep or misfortune and a cackle. The other option is to grab a rod of Quicken lesser and use it on Ill Omen. At lvl 10 it's best to have both. Now your familiar can Ill Omen one enemy and you a second, then you split hex. Two enemies for one round of actions. Going the Evil Eye route just to make the next hex save DC a little harder is definitely the worst and slowest way to get there.

Shadow Lodge

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Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Assuming teleportation looks anything like invisibility, assuming they've never seen teleportation or invisibility before, etc.

Invisibility is also more common, and they have nothing to really lose by striking in the square you were in.

Besides, isn't striking the space where your opponent just vanished practically a trope? Don't forget the Big NOOOOOOOOOO! when you miss. :)

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

Lab_Rat wrote:
This is the biggest reason for taking Improved Familiar as a Witch. Being able to cast Ill Omen (via familiar) and then follow that with a sleep or misfortune and a cackle. The other option is to grab a rod of Quicken lesser and use it on Ill Omen. At lvl 10 it's best to have both. Now your familiar can Ill Omen one enemy and you a second, then you split hex. Two enemies for one round of actions. Going the Evil Eye route just to make the next hex save DC a little harder is definitely the worst and slowest way to get there.

Take a level dip in dual-cursed oracle to get misfortune as well. You can also have magical lineage (ill omen) and wayang spellhunter (ill omen) to fill level 3 spell slots with quickened ill omens. :p Then get a normal rod of persistence (cheaper than a lesser quicken rod!) and go nuts.


Whats the point of the rod of persistent spell? Ill Omen does not have a save.

What you do get with the quickened Ill Omen is a sudo persistent Hex, something that you can not actually get. Misfortune, sleep, Ice Tomb, Eternal Slumber, Forced Reincarnation are all great to use with this tactic.

Dark Archive

You're better off with an Improved Familiar with wand use and a high UMD score making use of a wand of ill omen. That's as good as a quicken without needing to bother with those pesky spell slots or rods.


I agree. The Rod of Quicken was only brought up by me so that you could fully utilize the feat Split Hex at level 10. I am going to enjoy seeing that OMG look on the table judge when my Witch drops 2 persistent Sleeps/Ice Tombs in a round.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

Lab_Rat wrote:

Whats the point of the rod of persistent spell? Ill Omen does not have a save.

What you do get with the quickened Ill Omen is a sudo persistent Hex, something that you can not actually get. Misfortune, sleep, Ice Tomb, Eternal Slumber, Forced Reincarnation are all great to use with this tactic.

...because you can stack the effects? When they have to roll twice, why not 3 times? Why not 4 times?

Hexes aren't the only thing a witch has, you know...

Edit: Oh, I think I see what you're saying. No, of course you don't apply the persistent to ill omen, you apply it to suffocation or something similar, stacking with ill omen and misfortune revelation to force 4 saves or die.


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So here is how I see it : BBEG v. Witch and Party.

Round 1

Witch Familiar uses wand of Ill Omen , witch hexes Evil Eye (Saves). Roll twice, take worse result. Probably sticks, if not cackle.

Round 2:

Witch Familiar uses Wand of Ill Omen, witch hexes Misfortune. Roll twice at -(2 or 4), take worse result. Probably sticks. Cackle as needed.

Round 3:

Witch casts 'Save or Suck" (persistent) while once again, the familiar uses its wand.

Result:
Roll twice and take the worse result (Misfortune Hex) and;
Roll 2d20 and take the least favorable result (Ill Omen)

for a net result of roll 3d20.

Roll 3d20, each at -(2 or 4). Take the worst result. If the save fails, done, else: Persistent Spell takes effect:
Roll 3d20, each at -(2 or 4). Take the worst result. If the save fails, done, else: Dual Cursed Oracle Misfortune:
Roll 3d20, each at -(2 or 4). Take the worst result.

So, end result is (basically) 9d20 each at -2 or 4, take worst result.

I think this is what he meant. . .


more a rant on Witches and how they are played:
I guess...but wouldn't the BBEG be close to dead by the time you got around to the third round of combat. I know that in most games I play things are pretty wrapped up by round 3.

I guess your example shows one of the issues I have with the Witch class or at least how people play it. People want to Evil eye, then misfortune, and then finally disable the enemy. That's three rounds spent on 1 bad guy. I prefer to just Ill Omen and go straight to the disabling Hex. If that fails, try again next round (if you grabbed the feat). By lvl 10 your should be disabling two enemies per round. Of course this leads to issue number 2 I have with witches. When you have a few very excellent hexes that can disable enemies for the entire combat....why use anything else?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Back to the original topic of this thread:

In my area, some of the inexpensive mundane items are seriously underused.

Alchemist's Fire
Acid Flasks
Holy Water
Tanglefoot Bags
Weapon blanches on ammunition

Did I mention tanglefoot bags?

Also, some of the more useful 1st level spells get overlooked here, like Abundant Ammunition, Bless (yes, bless!), Protection from Evil, etc.


Pick up some smoked goggle too. 10gp for a +8 to your save vs visual attacks and you are always considered to adverting your gaze.

Dark Archive

Tanglefoot bags used as an alchemical power component when casting the Slow spell.....

Thunderstones (by themselves or as alchemical power components in the Alarm spell). People forget that they can deafen and that's a 20% chance to fail a spell with a verbal component.

The Exchange 5/5

Been a while sense this was on the boards - and there are some good things in here.

So I'm Necroing it, maybe we'll get some new Tactics to add to the list...

I don't think this one is in this list... but a really nice item for every low level PC ...

Whetstone (AA Pg9), gives a +1 damage for a normal weapons for the first time it hits after you sharpen it. Cost? 2 cp. Yeap, 2 COPPER PIECES! What 1st level PC (or 2nd for that matter) Can't afford this? And the Role Play of sitting around, sharpening a blade while the "Face" PC is doing an Intimidate roll...

Shadow Lodge

Wand of Lucky Number, buy one.


In the words of one of my favorite board personalities, "Holy Necro Batman".
Oh and thanks Disk, you just cost me another 2 prestige on all my characters..

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Use. Magic. Device. Get it. In PFS where you have access to a plethora of items for almost free it makes you more versatile than skills,

Mage armor: Good for pets with irresponsible owners that haven't gotten them barding. It won't stack with existing armor, but its great for the whole party if you think there will be shadows.

Stupid druid tricks:

Earth elemental Druid escape plan. Standard action turn into an earth elemental. 5 foot step DOWN. Not south, DOWN into the ground. No AOO on either action and makes you VERY hard to hit.

Ant haul. It improves your carrying capacity.. say if your melee don't have means of flying yet. You can fly them to the fight.

Aqueous orb. It washes, it pushes foes out of the way, can retrieve friends if you're desperate.

Life bubble. Dear gods life bubble. I don't know how many gases the party walked into this weekend. Group hug usually lasts the dungeon.

Call animal. If you need to take your game up a notch for some reason and don't normally have an animal companion you can call in a temporary companion. Keep in mind that the animal isn't trained and doesn't get the goodies off the animal companion chart and is harder to train/push. Use sparingly and in emergencies only.

The Exchange 5/5

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if you only have one attack, and the monster get's more than two...
Swing and walk out of melee. It get's one AOO, then one attack as it closes.

I've seen someone with a reach weapon fighting a monster with 2 claws and a bite...
move 10' away, suffering the AOO (so there is 2 squares between her and the monster) and ready an attack... so when the monster then closes, she gets her readied attack, then an AOO, then the monster gets one attack. And on her next turn (going before the monster again) she repeats this. She get's 2 attacks and the monster only gets two attacks...


Disk just used lucky number on our rogue, saved him from a massive trap. What are the chances.

Shadow Lodge

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MichaelCullen wrote:
Disk just used lucky number on our rogue, saved him from a massive trap. What are the chances.

Saved our Rogue from 3 Nat 1s during Trial By Machine. It's like having infinite shirt re-rolls...

Scarab Sages 4/5

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Disk Elemental wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
Disk just used lucky number on our rogue, saved him from a massive trap. What are the chances.
Saved our Rogue from 3 Nat 1s during Trial By Machine. It's like having infinite shirt re-rolls...

Just making sure I understand the spell right... When you cast the spell, you roll a d20 and get a random lucky number. You can only use the spell to reroll that specific number or add a +2 luck bonus to that specific number, right? So to be able to reroll three nat 1s, you'd have to roll a nat 1 each of the three times you cast the spell. You don't get to pick your lucky number. It's random. It's a powerful spell when circumstances align (you roll a low lucky number, then happen to roll that number on an important roll, then happen to succeed on the reroll), but it seems like more often than not, it won't do anything useful.

Scarab Sages

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Remember that potions are a standard action even if the spell normally is not - so infernal healing potion, enlarge person potion, lesser restoration potions are all standard actions to get the effect.

Also remember that the you can make the 3rd level spell into an oil as well as a potion - so make that an oil of enlarge person and have the wizard apply it to the barbarian as the barbarian delays and then charges after he is large. Or someone putting an oil of abundent ammunition on the archer's quiver with a few adamantine (or blanched) arrows.

do not forget your Oil/potion of Unwelcome Halo - a whole lot cheaper than a daylight potion or oil (not as useful if you are good, but perhaps you can buy a dog). Actually consider making it an unwelcome potion sponge just to cover your bases.

If you have a GM who make you push your animal companion to drink a potion (because there is no drink potion trick) remember most potions can be oils.

=======================
One caution - did you know this rule about drinking a potion or applying an oil from the Core Rulebook - "An enemy may direct
an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container
rather than against the character. A successful attack of this
sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from
drinking the potion or applying the oil." "The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12."

Also, apply an oil to an unconscious person takes just as long as a potion to one, so they are not faster - "Likewise, it takes a full round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature."

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

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nosig wrote:

if you only have one attack, and the monster get's more than two...

Swing and walk out of melee. It get's one AOO, then one attack as it closes.

I've seen someone with a reach weapon fighting a monster with 2 claws and a bite...
move 10' away, suffering the AOO (so there is 2 squares between her and the monster) and ready an attack... so when the monster then closes, she gets her readied attack, then an AOO, then the monster gets one attack. And on her next turn (going before the monster again) she repeats this. She get's 2 attacks and the monster only gets two attacks...

One minor variation on this, which I prefer when it is available, is the attack, move, and ready, when it moves in,to trip it with the ready or AoO, so it then has to use another move action to stand up, and it can't 5' step, since it already moved to get into your ready range. And the standing back up provokes, too, if you have Combat Reflexes...

Variant on this, and something to bear in mind if the target character resembles your PC: Reach weapons or targets with reach, and the charging Barbarian (or similar): Using your AoO to trip the charger is not going to make him happy, even if he has moved for only a move action's distance, and the GM rules he can burn his standard to stand back up... And that interpretation is subject to ETV...

The Exchange 5/5

kinevon wrote:
nosig wrote:

if you only have one attack, and the monster get's more than two...

Swing and walk out of melee. It get's one AOO, then one attack as it closes.

I've seen someone with a reach weapon fighting a monster with 2 claws and a bite...
move 10' away, suffering the AOO (so there is 2 squares between her and the monster) and ready an attack... so when the monster then closes, she gets her readied attack, then an AOO, then the monster gets one attack. And on her next turn (going before the monster again) she repeats this. She get's 2 attacks and the monster only gets two attacks...

One minor variation on this, which I prefer when it is available, is the attack, move, and ready, when it moves in,to trip it with the ready or AoO, so it then has to use another move action to stand up, and it can't 5' step, since it already moved to get into your ready range. And the standing back up provokes, too, if you have Combat Reflexes...

Variant on this, and something to bear in mind if the target character resembles your PC: Reach weapons or targets with reach, and the charging Barbarian (or similar): Using your AoO to trip the charger is not going to make him happy, even if he has moved for only a move action's distance, and the GM rules he can burn his standard to stand back up... And that interpretation is subject to ETV...

Seen that. Good tactic, but... Also seen the target then crawl forward 5 foot (suffering an AOO to do it) so that he is at 5' and can AOO (at -4) you when/if you move away again... If you do this to set up the trip AOO again, he stands and moves to attack a different PC.

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
kinevon wrote:
nosig wrote:

if you only have one attack, and the monster get's more than two...

Swing and walk out of melee. It get's one AOO, then one attack as it closes.

I've seen someone with a reach weapon fighting a monster with 2 claws and a bite...
move 10' away, suffering the AOO (so there is 2 squares between her and the monster) and ready an attack... so when the monster then closes, she gets her readied attack, then an AOO, then the monster gets one attack. And on her next turn (going before the monster again) she repeats this. She get's 2 attacks and the monster only gets two attacks...

One minor variation on this, which I prefer when it is available, is the attack, move, and ready, when it moves in,to trip it with the ready or AoO, so it then has to use another move action to stand up, and it can't 5' step, since it already moved to get into your ready range. And the standing back up provokes, too, if you have Combat Reflexes...

Variant on this, and something to bear in mind if the target character resembles your PC: Reach weapons or targets with reach, and the charging Barbarian (or similar): Using your AoO to trip the charger is not going to make him happy, even if he has moved for only a move action's distance, and the GM rules he can burn his standard to stand back up... And that interpretation is subject to ETV...

Seen that. Good tactic, but... Also seen the target then crawl forward 5 foot (suffering an AOO to do it) so that he is at 5' and can AOO (at -4) you when/if you move away again... If you do this to set up the trip AOO again, he stands and moves to attack a different PC.

Nice ideas kinevon, but nosig is correct, too. Their movement isnt done just cause they are now prone, but if they get inside your reach range, they can stand up without fear of being hit.

Also, and I could be reading this incorrectly, but it looks like kinevon is saying that it is a matter of table variation on if the GM will allow you to use your standard action to stand up. If I am reading that correctly, than that is incorrect, kinevon. It shouldnt be a TV issue, as you can always do another move action instead of a standard, so no GM should be disallowing that at all.
If I was misreading it, then nevermind.


I do not see the point of the crawl. It is a move action to crawl 5 feet. So if someone started a move action and moved. Then they were tripped. They would need to spend anothe rmove action to crawl that 5 feet. Then a third move action to stand up.

If tyhey start their movement prone and crawl to you, then stand up that is their move and standard. They still provoke and they are next to you. But in that case the other person can 5 foot step and trip again in most cases.

Scarab Sages 4/5

I believe the crawl is so that they end their turn adjacent to you and thus able to take an AoO against you if you move away again (with the -4 penalty for them being prone).

5/5

Seth Gipson wrote:


Also, and I could be reading this incorrectly, but it looks like kinevon is saying that it is a matter of table variation on if the GM will allow you to use your standard action to stand up. If I am reading that correctly, than that is incorrect, kinevon. It shouldnt be a TV issue, as you can always do another move action instead of a standard, so no GM should be disallowing that at all.
If I was misreading it, then nevermind.

I think it was more that it's TV on whether the GM will allow someone who charged and was tripped before reaching the target to backtrack and say it was just a move to get up there and tripped. Charge would be a full round action once declared, and if you're tripped on the way to your target you don't have any standard or move actions left (at least that's how I read it).

The Exchange 5/5

Ferious Thune wrote:
I believe the crawl is so that they end their turn adjacent to you and thus able to take an AoO against you if you move away again (with the -4 penalty for them being prone).

exactly.

the trip does deprive him of his attack, and give a -4 to his AOO when the guy with the reach weapon does something. The time I saw it done, the monster used the AOO to do a disarm to take the reach weapon from the PC as she moved away... leaving the weapon beside the (prone) monster and the PC 15 feet away. (At which point the Archer PC in the party shot the monster dead... go figure. I guess it pays to outnumber the monsters.)

Scarab Sages 4/5

nosig wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I believe the crawl is so that they end their turn adjacent to you and thus able to take an AoO against you if you move away again (with the -4 penalty for them being prone).

exactly.

the trip does deprive him of his attack, and give a -4 to his AOO when the guy with the reach weapon does something. The time I saw it done, the monster used the AOO to do a disarm to take the reach weapon from the PC as she moved away... leaving the weapon beside the (prone) monster and the PC 15 feet away. (At which point the Archer PC in the party shot the monster dead... go figure. I guess it pays to outnumber the monsters.)

Personally, if I were the PC with the reach weapon and the monster decided to stay prone in front of me, I'd 5-foot step away and full-round attack with the +4. Sometimes it makes sense even for trip builds to go ahead and deal damage. You'd get a full round attack against a prone opponent who won't be able to 5-foot and attack you on the next round, and who will still be in your reach should it decide to stand up, provoking another AoO from you.

Grand Lodge

Sniggevert wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:


Also, and I could be reading this incorrectly, but it looks like kinevon is saying that it is a matter of table variation on if the GM will allow you to use your standard action to stand up. If I am reading that correctly, than that is incorrect, kinevon. It shouldnt be a TV issue, as you can always do another move action instead of a standard, so no GM should be disallowing that at all.
If I was misreading it, then nevermind.

I think it was more that it's TV on whether the GM will allow someone who charged and was tripped before reaching the target to backtrack and say it was just a move to get up there and tripped. Charge would be a full round action once declared, and if you're tripped on the way to your target you don't have any standard or move actions left (at least that's how I read it).

Ah, gotcha. That makes more sense than what I said.

The Exchange 5/5

Ferious Thune wrote:
nosig wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I believe the crawl is so that they end their turn adjacent to you and thus able to take an AoO against you if you move away again (with the -4 penalty for them being prone).

exactly.

the trip does deprive him of his attack, and give a -4 to his AOO when the guy with the reach weapon does something. The time I saw it done, the monster used the AOO to do a disarm to take the reach weapon from the PC as she moved away... leaving the weapon beside the (prone) monster and the PC 15 feet away. (At which point the Archer PC in the party shot the monster dead... go figure. I guess it pays to outnumber the monsters.)

Personally, if I were the PC with the reach weapon and the monster decided to stay prone in front of me, I'd 5-foot step away and full-round attack with the +4. Sometimes it makes sense even for trip builds to go ahead and deal damage. You'd get a full round attack against a prone opponent who won't be able to 5-foot and attack you on the next round, and who will still be in your reach should it decide to stand up, provoking another AoO from you.

Different circumstances, and she wasn't expecting it to "push her"...

Full attack from her was still only one attack (BAB < +6), and she thought the monster was going to Stand and 5' to attack her - and she didn't want to risk the attacks (Ghast).

It was a moot point anyway, as the damage dealer in that group was the Archer ("Long Composite Assult Rifle"). (Kind of funny, the prone monster was getting a +4 to it's AC vs. the arrow shots.)

Scarab Sages 4/5

nosig wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
nosig wrote:

Different circumstances, and she wasn't expecting it to "push her"...

Full attack from her was still only one attack (BAB < +6), and she thought the monster was going to Stand and 5' to attack her - and she didn't want to risk the attacks (Ghast).

It was a moot point anyway, as the damage dealer in that group was the Archer ("Long Composite Assult Rifle"). (Kind of funny, the prone monster was getting a +4 to it's AC vs. the arrow shots.)

Either way, she's be taking one attack, either as an AoO or on its turn. If it stands, then 5-foots, it can only take a single attack. Giving it the AoO against you means it could paralyze 2 people in the round. Not saying staying and attacking was the right move for her, because I don't know all the factors. Now, if she used the withdrawal action to get away from it without the AoO and set herself up for a potential AoO against it should it survive the round, that starts to sound like something that would work.

At any rate, this is moving more into what makes sense in a specific situation than general advice. I'm in agreement that tripping a charging opponent when you have a reach weapon is a good thing.

Also agree archers deal ridiculous damage.


Ferious Thune wrote:
I believe the crawl is so that they end their turn adjacent to you and thus able to take an AoO against you if you move away again (with the -4 penalty for them being prone).

I would use the withdraw function action and start the situation over while allowing my other teammates to take thier actions making it regret the stall tactic with me up an AoO from the crawl.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

As mentioned, the TV was whether a charger being tripped, if they had not already traveled more than their normal move action in distance, could abort the charge into a move and use the now-recovered standard action to stand up.

On the crawl 5': I believe that is considered a move action, not a 5' step, unless you can, somehow, crawl more than 5' per move action, in which case it still provokes.

Note that, in some builds, or weapon choices, it is possible to threaten both at reach and adjacent. Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery, and a whip, for one example. There is also the discussion on whether a medium PC wielding a small reach weapon has reach with it or not, and that it is now a one-handed weapon, so he could wield another weapon at the same time. Even without that, IUS or a level in Monk removes the inability to threaten adjacent when wielding a normal sized polearm.

Bruno:
I have a whip build, Fighter (Lore Warden)/Magus (Kensai), with Greater Trip, Improved Disarm, and Combat Reflexes. That is a trip on the ready/aoo, disarm on the Greater Trip aoo. Unless it is a monk, or has some other form of innate attack, it now provokes if it crawls forward, provokes when it tries to attack you, provokes when it tries to stand up. Of course, my whip wielder only has 3 AoOs, since he is a Strength build. The UE update on whips hurt his potential damage output by a little bit, no more 1.5 Str when two-handing a whip.

Kinevon:
I also have a polearm build, Fighter (Poelarm Master), who recently picked up a small sized version of his polearm. So, he has that in one hand, taking the -2 to attacks with it, and his agile rapier in his other hand, and he now threatens at both 5' and 10' range. Also Greater Trip, Greater Disarm and Combat Reflexes, but a Dex build so somewhere around 9 AoOs available. And the -2 to his attacks with his small polearm is inconsequential, since he is either obscene on his CMB even at the penalty, or he can't hit the side of a barn, with normal attacks, since his Strength is so low. And he typically only makes normal damage attacks against a prone, unarmed, opponent, so he gets that bonus to hit.

Edit: Some archers, like some gunslingers, do fairly healthy damage. Note that it takes a lot more effort to make a big damage archer than it does to make a big damage meleer. And, while archers can get full attacks more often, their base weapon is, in most ways, equivalent to a longsword rather than a greatsword. And, while a charge lane blocked is a one-round hindrance, a meleer standing between you and your target, providing them cover, is, frequently, going to just remain a hindrance for the whole fight.

Watching a pair of ranged combatants jockeying with each other to get the one clear firing lane can be amusing.

Liberty's Edge

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I just picked up a Wand of Glitterdust for my multiclassed Archer character. I think people often forget just how useful this is, since invisibility is such a killer. Also the wand is 4500 for 50 charges, vs say dust of appearance which is 1800 for one time use.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

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Let's see some of the tactics I play with now..

Runt (My Grenadier Alchemist)
-Alchemical Weapons infused in his arrows. Such as Ghast Retch Flasks, Slime Slow,
Shard Gel
-The Hybridization Funnel. Don't leave home without it. Serious.. no Alchemist should ever NOT have it. I mean.. mix flasks of all sorts of things. Artoku's fire + Liquid Ice/Holy Water/whatever. Lots of fun to be hand.
-Alchemical Weapons/Items might have 'cruddy saves' but even the 'fail conditions' can do nasty things. Tanglefoot/burn bags can entangle, Ghast Retch leaves your target sickened for 3 rounds.

While Runt can do some devastating attacks, I find he works best setting up folks for their attacks with a well applied arrow from on high (he has wings) with a bomb and/or the right alchemical item. Next few levels he's most likely going to add infusion to his latest discovery of combine extract (can anyone say.. Infused Bull Strength/Enlarge or Infused Barkskin/Shield for the right player?)

Liarra (Wizard/Maagambian Wizard)
-Create Pit Spell line (all of them) GREAT when you're paired with a bull rush fighter/paladin
-Aqueous Orb (for rounding up minions and dropping them into the pit you just made.
-Wand of Spectral Hand: Force Punching the smirking dude who just jumped out of your pit with a good reflex save. Or Force Punching the bad guy into a wall and prone so the fighter can hit him while he's down.
-Communal Spells: All of them can be of use. Dark dungeon and half the party is 'night blind'? Pop a Communal Darkvision and sneak around in the dark with the beasties.

Warpriest
-Fervor is awesome for 'quick casting spells'.
-Inheritor's Smite is good for putting a bad guy on his butt for all those flanking it to dog pile and hammering on it.
-The right blessing is great for helping the others in your group. A 'good align' weapon at a touch, or a fiery blade and so on is very helpful.

One of the things I've found in the last few months is setting up other players to do things.

Silver Crusade

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Here is a tactic that is often overlooked: firing ranged weapons around the corner.

PRD wrote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

In particular, if you (the archer Ⓐ in the diagram below) are around a corner from your opponent (the bugbear Ⓑ), then he does not have cover from your ranged attack, but you do have cover from his melee attack and therefore do not provoke an attack of opportunity.


▧▧▧▧

▧Ⓑ
▧▧Ⓐ▧

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

.... ok, how did you format that with the squares and such?

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

The Fox wrote:

Here is a tactic that is often overlooked: firing ranged weapons around the corner.

PRD wrote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

In particular, if you (the archer Ⓐ in the diagram below) are around a corner from your opponent (the bugbear Ⓑ), then he does not have cover from your ranged attack, but you do have cover from his melee attack and therefore do not provoke an attack of opportunity.


▧▧▧▧

▧Ⓑ
▧▧Ⓐ▧

By the rules you quoted Ⓑ has cover from Ⓐ because drawing a line from the top left corner of Ⓐ's square to the bottom left corner of Ⓑ's square "passes through a... border that blocks line of effect or provides cover..."

Following the cover rules as written leads to the ridiculous situation of firing down a 5 foot wide corridor at a target that has cover from the corridor's walls.

The Exchange 5/5

Michael Eshleman wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Here is a tactic that is often overlooked: firing ranged weapons around the corner.

PRD wrote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

In particular, if you (the archer Ⓐ in the diagram below) are around a corner from your opponent (the bugbear Ⓑ), then he does not have cover from your ranged attack, but you do have cover from his melee attack and therefore do not provoke an attack of opportunity.


▧▧▧▧

▧Ⓑ
▧▧Ⓐ▧

By the rules you quoted Ⓑ has cover from Ⓐ because drawing a line from the top left corner of Ⓐ's square to the bottom left corner of Ⓑ's square "passes through a... border that blocks line of effect or provides cover..."

Following the cover rules as written leads to the ridiculous situation of firing down a 5 foot wide corridor at a target that has cover from the corridor's walls.

actually it never "passes through" - it only passes along. To go thru it would need to cross the line.

Silver Crusade

nosig wrote:
Michael Eshleman wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Here is a tactic that is often overlooked: firing ranged weapons around the corner.

PRD wrote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

In particular, if you (the archer Ⓐ in the diagram below) are around a corner from your opponent (the bugbear Ⓑ), then he does not have cover from your ranged attack, but you do have cover from his melee attack and therefore do not provoke an attack of opportunity.


▧▧▧▧

▧Ⓑ
▧▧Ⓐ▧

By the rules you quoted Ⓑ has cover from Ⓐ because drawing a line from the top left corner of Ⓐ's square to the bottom left corner of Ⓑ's square "passes through a... border that blocks line of effect or provides cover..."

Following the cover rules as written leads to the ridiculous situation of firing down a 5 foot wide corridor at a target that has cover from the corridor's walls.

actually it never "passes through" - it only passes along. To go thru it would need to cross the line.

Yes. nosig is correct. See the figure in the CRB (also in the PRD) illustrating the cover rules. The situation between the ogre and the rogue (#2) is precisely what I posted above.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
.... ok, how did you format that with the squares and such?

Wizardry!

Spoiler:
I wrote my post first in my text editor, finding the characters I wanted to use among the Special Characters. Then cut and paste.

The blocks are okay, but I wish I had found something that would connect edge to edge. But I do like the circled letters.

Edit:
Here is a small library of characters for your use:

Spoiler:

ⒶⒷⒸⒹⒺⒻⒼⒽⒾⒿⓀⓁⓂⓃⓄⓅⓆⓇⓈⓉⓊⓋⓌⓍⓎⓏ

▢▧▨▩▂▎

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

ⓉⒽⒶⓃⓀ ⓎⓄⓊ

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