Commonly Overlooked Tactics


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Dark Archive Venture-Agent, Washington—Redmond

Mike Bramnik wrote:
Take 20 on your Perception check.

I *had* thought failing the perception by 5 or more triggered the trap, but I just caught myself - its the Disable Device check that if you fail by 5 more triggers the trap. If a GM questions you on taking 20 searching for the trap, you can let them know that the fail condition is niether listed under Perception nor the rules for Traps, but rather only under Disable Device ^_^

thejeff wrote:

Right in the cover section.

Quote:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

THIS just made my day given this trait: Self-Sacrifice

Mystic Lemur wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
It takes a move action to direct something that isn't intelligent...maybe. Anything trained or intelligent is basically free to direct. Huzzah the personal army.

Handling a trained animal is a move action. Pushing (trying to get it to do something it isn't trained for) is a Standard. Commanding undead is, apparently, a free action. Eidolons and Familiars (and other intelligent companions) can be commanded verbally as a free action.

I don't know why animals are harder to control than mindless undead, but MAGIC! ;)

The "Link" feature under a Druid's Animal Companion allows you to handle your animal as a Free Action

Silver Crusade

Jiggy wrote:
Btw, if you get even one Rogue Talent, you qualify for the "Extra Rogue Talent" feat. Just FYI.

Yeah, but this guy has too much other stuff to spend his feats on. That's why I was looking at ways to make him better using only magic items - I already know what feats and rogue talents I'll be taking through at least level 9.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Justin Riddler wrote:
If a GM questions you on taking 20 searching for the trap, you can let them know that the fail condition is niether listed under Perception nor the rules for Traps, but rather only under Disable Device ^_^

Or you could just point to the T20 rules themselves, where searching for traps is given as an example of a common use of T20. ;)

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Justin Riddler wrote:
If a GM questions you on taking 20 searching for the trap, you can let them know that the fail condition is niether listed under Perception nor the rules for Traps, but rather only under Disable Device ^_^

Or you could just point to the T20 rules themselves, where searching for traps is given as an example of a common use of T20. ;)

and that works every time! .... ;)

(like with the Take 10 rules, YMMV)

Dark Archive

The trick about traps is that most traps are located in an area in which one or more PC's should have prebuffed with min/level buffs meaning the 1min (20 move actions) to search the door should cause issues with the buff timer.

Basically at 1min per door + 2d4 rounds to disable device per check (assuming you can pass on a take 10 for disable) thats a minimum of 12 rounds maximum 18 + 1 or 2 rounds to move the rogue to the door and get through.

The Exchange 5/5

Caderyn wrote:

The trick about traps is that most traps are located in an area in which one or more PC's should have prebuffed with min/level buffs meaning the 1min (20 move actions) to search the door should cause issues with the buff timer.

Basically at 1min per door + 2d4 rounds to disable device per check (assuming you can pass on a take 10 for disable) thats a minimum of 12 rounds maximum 18 + 1 or 2 rounds to move the rogue to the door and get through.

So, let me get the strait.

Perception to find the trap for one minute, plus either 1 rd, or 1d4 rounds, or 2d4 rounds, (6 seconds to 48 seconds) is not worth the lost time, but recovering from the trap is?

Some traps alert the BBE and let's him "buff up for visitors". Some traps ruin faction missions. Some traps KILL PCs. (the last PC kill I saw was to a trap that we failed to even look for... and we even had it, if we'd just taken 10 on the perception. Bomb - KIA Cleric... the PC with the Breath of Life spell.)

I'll take the found and disarmed trap over the set off trap anyday.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, I'm with nosig here... barreling through traps because your buffs are ticking down seems like a terrible idea, at least if you have any reasonable suspicion that the area might be trapped.

Silver Crusade

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Besides, aren't you better off buffing AFTER you unlock the door? That way, your buff timers begin exactly one round before you open it.

Dark Archive

I am mentioning that as the reason alot of people overlook searching for traps while buffs are running, especially in the case of round per level or min/level buffs at low level (in the majority of cases a trap is just a hp tax to move through the door, must like a haunt is just a hp/save or die tax to pass through a room).

As you cannot be certain that the door after room number one of baddies is trapped you have two choices one is to take the time to search for traps (personally my prefered option as I actually play three seperate rogue PC's at levels 13,9 and 1 and a monk with trapfinding at level 6), option two is barrel through the door with a high hp character with decent saves (chances are actually quite low that you wont make it to the other side as first the door has to be trapped, then you have to fail the save etc).

Also in the circumstance im describing the BBEG is already prebuffing technically if you blunder through the trap you will cut his prebuffing short at the cost of one of more PCs being weakened for the next battle (you have fought monsters in room one which is why you are buffed with short term buffs)

For any trap of note (spell traps or any mechanical ones that is a threat) the DC to disable is 20+ which means 2d4 rounds to disable. Personally I only run 10min/level buffs or longer on my buff PCs so I dont care if we stop at every door.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Fromper wrote:

Speaking of invisible healers, a group I was GMing for last weekend came up with a funny tactic on the fly.

It was a subtier 6-7, and someone was playing the pregen cleric, Kyra, who is great at channeling at that level, both for healing and to harm undead. Someone else was playing a wizard with clairvoyance. So before opening a door, they already knew that there was a nasty looking undead waiting in an alcove to ambush the first person who walked more than 5 feet into the long, narrow hallway beyond it.

I like the tactics your players used. Here's one that I'm always fond of using for "Detect Magic/Evil" but I think it works the same for channel energy - even if it doesn't, it's still a good tactic for "detect" spells and abilities:

PRD wrote:
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Unless the dungeon-standard wooden door is more than 3 feet thick, stand outside the door and channel to harm - the undead then has to retreat away from ambush position to avoid getting hit or has to try and come out to the PCs (who could brace the door or set up their own ambush), or stand there and take it (depending on how strict to tactics the GM is playing it).

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Nope. Channel energy is blocked just like any other effect, the door won't do it.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Well, the detect magic tactic is still valid at least :P

The Exchange 5/5

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here's a cute gimmick I saw someone use.
.
The party is going to attack from two sides - but they want to get the timeing right. PC-A casts light on something and hands it to PC-B. A group of the PCs including PC-A move around to the other side - and when they are ready PC-A casts light again. The light in PC-Bs hand goes out and they all attack.

Cool?

Silver Crusade

nosig wrote:

here's a cute gimmick I saw someone use.

.
The party is going to attack from two sides - but they want to get the timeing right. PC-A casts light on something and hands it to PC-B. A group of the PCs including PC-A move around to the other side - and when they are ready PC-A casts light again. The light in PC-Bs hand goes out and they all attack.

Cool?

Cute use of a cantrip. Of course, this is what the Message cantrip is really for, and it allows 2 way communication. But Light is more multi-purpose, so I can see more people having it prepared and ready to go on any given day.

The Exchange 5/5

Fromper wrote:
nosig wrote:

here's a cute gimmick I saw someone use.

.
The party is going to attack from two sides - but they want to get the timeing right. PC-A casts light on something and hands it to PC-B. A group of the PCs including PC-A move around to the other side - and when they are ready PC-A casts light again. The light in PC-Bs hand goes out and they all attack.

Cool?

Cute use of a cantrip. Of course, this is what the Message cantrip is really for, and it allows 2 way communication. But Light is more multi-purpose, so I can see more people having it prepared and ready to go on any given day.

Message would have issues with range and doors. and can only be cast by limited caster types (though all of my casters that CAN have it, normally do). Light can be used by many more types (clerics notably)

Dark Archive Venture-Agent, Washington—Redmond

A local GM took a very smart but deadly tactic at some of our players by noticing who had Ioun Stones slotted in their wayfinders - done in character by seeing who used their wayfinder's light ability (knowing the player thus didn't have any ioun stone slotted and they had a high chance of getting Charm/Dominate to work) - seeing the GM use this tactic, another player got a Continual Flame cast on his wayfinder so that it looks perpetually on even though he has his Clear Spindel Ioun Stone slotted!

The Exchange 5/5

Justin Riddler wrote:
A local GM took a very smart but deadly tactic at some of our players by noticing who had Ioun Stones slotted in their wayfinders - done in character by seeing who used their wayfinder's light ability (knowing the player thus didn't have any ioun stone slotted and they had a high chance of getting Charm/Dominate to work) - seeing the GM use this tactic, another player got a Continual Flame cast on his wayfinder so that it looks perpetually on even though he has his Clear Spindel Ioun Stone slotted!

a couple things on this...but first, I was not that table judge - so anything I say doesn't matter one c.p.

1) light and continual flame don't look anything alike. I would not even expect someone to need a spell craft roll to know the difference. continual flame looks like it's ON FIRE! - if you showed up with that wayfinder on, I might expect someone to cast create water on you! LOL! Just have someone else cast light on your Wayfinder... They might even use thier own to do it right?

2) Wayfinders shouldn't be all that common. How many monsters would know the things shed light - and more improtantly, how many would know they stop if you slot an ioun stone in them? (or why you would slot an Ioun Stone in it anyway)?


nosig wrote:
Justin Riddler wrote:
A local GM took a very smart but deadly tactic at some of our players by noticing who had Ioun Stones slotted in their wayfinders - done in character by seeing who used their wayfinder's light ability (knowing the player thus didn't have any ioun stone slotted and they had a high chance of getting Charm/Dominate to work) - seeing the GM use this tactic, another player got a Continual Flame cast on his wayfinder so that it looks perpetually on even though he has his Clear Spindel Ioun Stone slotted!

a couple things on this...but first, I was not that table judge - so anything I say doesn't matter one c.p.

1) light and continual flame don't look anything alike. I would not even expect someone to need a spell craft roll to know the difference. continual flame looks like it's ON FIRE! - if you showed up with that wayfinder on, I might expect someone to cast create water on you! LOL! Just have someone else cast light on your Wayfinder... They might even use thier own to do it right?

2) Wayfinders shouldn't be all that common. How many monsters would know the things shed light - and more improtantly, how many would know they stop if you slot an ioun stone in them? (or why you would slot an Ioun Stone in it anyway)?

Not only do the monsters recognize the wayfinders, know that they don't shed light with an ioun stone slotted, but also know about resonant powers and assume that anyone will have a clear spindel and not some other ioun stone. I don't play PFS, is that really the go-to combination?

If I played with a judge who metagamed that, I'd feel free to use another stone and argue that no one should try to Charm or Dominate me since it was obvious from my lack of light that I had an ioun stone slotted and thus probably was immune.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Heh. Most of my PCs who have a Wayfinder with an Ioun stone slotted in it, also own another Wayfinder without a stone slotted.

That gives them access to the Wayfinder Light spell, and the resonant power of the slotted stone.

Note that it is only two Wayfinders with slotted stones with resonance that interfere with each other.

Heck, one of my PCs with two Wayfinders has the second one being a Dayfinder...

And, even if you have to pay for both Wayfinders, it is only the 500 gp cost that a non-Pathfinder would have to pay for a single Wayfinder...

Dark Archive

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Readied action: Cast Create Pit if the mounted guy charges.
Every time I imagine that I laugh.

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheathe with a wand, to which is attached a Weapon Cord, while simultaneously wearing gloves of spell storing and holding a mithril tower shield or regular shield for ac/cover. You could also have a necklace of fireballs in there instead. These options should allow you to cast spells just fine- without actually casting. Deals with the readied actions against it pretty well. And it's all in one hand.

As already mentioned: Caltrops. Throw them to slow pursuers or to sop charges. Or be sure to put the enemy spellcaster in them while threatened by the melee guy. This will force them to cast defensively since a 5 foot step then cast will no longer be an option.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Small ranged character with the foot slasher feat.
Like a halfling zen archer. Same effect like caltrops from a distance^^

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I can't find "Foot Slasher" anywhere... other name?

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

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Footslasher is a combat feat from the rival guide and according to herolab society legal. Did write it wrong though, its only one word.

-2 on attack roll, if you hit and deal at least 1 damage speed of target is halfed for 24h, DC 15 heal check or magical healing.

2/5

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Someone up thread mentioned making a bard with a menacing reach weapon.

The text for menacing reads as such:

Quote:
A menacing weapon helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.

Sczarni

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Might be mentioned elsewhere, but; I love time savers:

Buy and wear spiked gauntlets. You never have to draw them, they don't hurt any skills, casting, etc. but they let you threaten! Woot! Never again waste a move action to draw a weapon. (move action --> no action needed for 5gp)

Always buy a handy haversack. Never again spend a standard action getting stuff out. Seriously. (standard action --> move action for 2000 gp, and your (non combat) gear weighs 5 lbs. -AND- no more AoOs for retrieving stored items.)

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath wands. I like mine for wand of CLW on left, wand of Infernal Healing on right. (move action --> immediate action for 5gp)

Immediate action: Draw wand of CLW
Move action: Move to ally
Standard action: Heal ally

is a lot better than:

Move action: Move to Ally / draw wand
Standard action: Pull wand out of pack (hope there is no AoO - see haversack above)/ Move to ally.
Swift action: Watch ally die.

2010 gp, and all your retrieving of items is now quicker and easier. All your emergency healing can be done on the fly. Action economy on the cheep. Know why it costs 35,000 for a Metamagic Rod of Quicken (Lesser)? Because time and actions are seriously worth it. So why be willing to spend 35k, but not be wiling to spend 2.01? Action economy . . . [/rant]

==========================================================

Infernal Healing.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

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For Rogues:
Improved Feint: Great for when you only get one attack, anyhow, and no one can provide Flanking for you. Bluff is a class skill, anyhow, and, unless your full attack can seriously do more damage, getting in a sneak attack may be a better option. Besides, it frequently makes your target easier to hit, and what's wrong with that?

Gang Up: Great for parties where you have multiple melee-ers, and still works if you use a weapon with reach.

Gang Up does make for some interesting party dynamics, where the Fighter and the Monk go into flanking, but the Rogue is still getting sneak attack on the same target. And, if the space is right, not even having to suffer from the cover penalties for attacking past one of his allies.

Spoiler:
Actually had that happen in a game last night, in a ship-side combat, where the situation was such that the fighter and monk were, from the rogue's point of view, on the right and left sides of the enemy, leaving the rogue a clear shot to add to the smackdown.

2/5

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Rogues with reach weapons have much more flexibility when it comes to flanking. Rogues with reach weapons and Lunge, even more so.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Akinra wrote:
Always buy a handy haversack. Never again spend a standard action getting stuff out. Seriously. (standard action --> move action for 2000 gp, and your (non combat) gear weighs 5 lbs. -AND- no more AoOs for retrieving stored items.)

Handy haversacks do not change the action type for retrieving an item. They simply cause it to not provoke.

Relatedly, retrieving an item is already a move action. The only time it takes longer is if the item is buried somewhere out of easy reach. That's where things like your climbing kit should be, not your potions and wands.

Quote:
Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath wands. I like mine for wand of CLW on left, wand of Infernal Healing on right. (move action --> immediate action for 5gp)

That'd be a swift action, not an immediate action.

Guess my earlier "commonly overlooked tactics" post still stands.

;)

Scarab Sages

Buff others. Carry around oils of enlarge person, magic weapon, resist energy, etc. If you don't have anything effective to do, use your actions to buff up the people who can hurt the bad guy.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Brace vs charge.

Many melee types like to charge PCS to get within range. Using a brace weapon lets you deal double damage, which will usually obliterate a mook before it even gets to swing.

the 200 gp +1 to almost any skill ioun stones. Not only are they a good deal on their own, but you can share them with your other party members.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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More effective for GMs than players since they get many more large+ creatures, but a reach weapon will suffice...always trip charging opponents with your AoO as they approach. Charge is a declared, full-round action. Interrupt it and your opponent should be prone, within reach, and end their turn. You get a round of attacking them with prone bonuses and they provoke when they try to stand or crawl away.

Course, some will argue that if you interrupt the charge within the first move increment, the target can chose to change the remainder of its action back into a standard and do something else similar to the way a full-attack action can be reduced to a standard attack if the first attack is sufficient. I happen to disagree with that, but YMMV.

Also, storing a scroll of breath of life in a spring-loaded wrist sheath has been a common tactic over the past couple of years. Most have considered a scroll a "weapon-like" object and subject to the same application of the item as a dagger or other listed item in the list. However, the text for the wrist sheath changed slightly in Ultimate Equipment. Not sure if that matters, but a few have told me that a loading a scroll into a wrist sheath is no longer legal. Others have said it never was. I searched the forums, but have not seen anything from the designers on this issue, just a lot of bickering in the rules forums.

The reason I ask and why this is applicable to this thread is the storage of a scroll of breath of life. Because it requires you to touch the target, using it in scroll form is problematic. Without free/swift teleportation magic, the norm is draw the scroll (move action), move to the target (move action), cast the scroll (standard action), touch the dead target (non-action, part of the casting). Obviously, not enough actions in a standard round. Using the wrist sheath reduces the action for drawing the scroll.

Dark Archive

Bob: They actually only released the wrist sheath in UE, and did not release the spring-loaded variant. Unless someone can find it for me, as I cannot locate it.


Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
Bob: They actually only released the wrist sheath in UE, and did not release the spring-loaded variant. Unless someone can find it for me, as I cannot locate it.

According to the PRD it's in Adventurer's Armory.


Yeah, I didn't notice it in the UE either. I know it's in the adventurers armory. I would allow scrolls in a spring wrist sheath. The description allows for items that are roughly the size of your forarm in length. A scroll of one spell is a sheet of 8.5x11 inch paper rolled up into a double cylinder. That is not that big and I could see it working. I wouldn't let a player use a multiple spell scroll though as that would start to get too thick to hide under a sleeve.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Do scrolls that are rolled up into a tube shape need to be unrolled in order to be read? Or can they be read while rolled up?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

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Chris Mortika wrote:
Do scrolls that are rolled up into a tube shape need to be unrolled in order to be read? Or can they be read while rolled up?

Given the fact that player death is always a bummer for the table, as in, they wish it hadn't happened -- and that a breath of life heal is always a clutch timing maneuver -- I assume it is unrolled it as part of the move action to draw it. When using a spring-loaded wrist sheath, I also assume that the pathfinder well prepared enough to carry such a scroll would have it "as ready to go as possible."

Maybe it's rolled inside-out, like a magical cylinder, so they read it as they unroll it. Maybe they spent time attaching one end of it to the wrist sheath, so when it pops out then can drop it from their hand and it unfurls to the ground, thus making unrolling it a non-action.

Essentially: give them a bit of a break. Someone just died, usually in the first round or two of the fight. It's already a bad situation, I don't like kicking them while their down. But IDK, I also have people show me that they own a copy of the AA whenever they use a spring-loaded wrist sheath, so I'm not super nice.


I always assume that unrolling the scroll is part of the action of using it. The rules state that the scroll is rolled into a double cylinder to allow for quick unrolling. That hints that the action is part of the use. So swift action to draw it to hand with spring loaded wrist sheath and then the standard action to unroll it and read it.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Chicago aka thunderspirit

Lab_Rat wrote:
I always assume that unrolling the scroll is part of the action of using it.

This. As it says in the Combat action description, I have always considered unrolling the scroll as "an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."

Dark Archive

I'm getting flashbacks from this thread. I might have to leave for my own health.


Should we rename the thread?

"The long winded and often off topic re-telling of Mergy's Methods"


was Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath updated?

Adventurer's Armory (Page 9) wrote:

Wrist Sheath, Spring Loaded: This item

works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing
an item from it is an immediate action.
Preparing
the sheath for this use requires cranking the
sheath’s tiny gears and springs into place (a fullround
action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

Also, Everything in a handy haversack is a move action.

Immediate is why I love these, someone dying? Immediate action wand to hand, someone else grabs on way by to injured person, and heal.

Coulda been errata'd, I will look it up later

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

Arizhel wrote:

Immediate action wand to hand, someone else grabs on way by to injured person, and heal.

Coulda been errata'd, I will look it up later

Actually, taking the wand from you would still be a move action for the second person, requiring them to have been adjacent to you before starting.


Errata'd to a swift action

Scarab Sages

Fromper wrote:

Another overlooked one that works against enemies with a mind: Demoralize! If you've got a decent intimidate skill, you can try to make the enemy shaken, which is -2 to hit, save, skills, and I think stat checks. This is a good option for charisma based spellcasters who are trying to conserve their spells per day, especially since intimidate is a class skill for bards and sorcerers. Even if you have a mediocre intimidate, anyone can try it, and a good roll could make it work at low levels.

I'll say this for demoralizing: It's also a great stalling tactic for Mysterious Stranger (or otherwise charismatic) Gunslingers while you reload your gun, are short on ammo, or gods forbid, your gun's broken.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

Lab_Rat wrote:
Errata'd to a swift action

Oh? When and where?


In the adventurer's armory errata doc. Look at the adventurer's armory product page. It will have a link to the errata. Of note, the additional resources doc specifically states that only Ed2 or Ed1 with errata is legal. A lot of items were fixed in that book.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

Ah, you were responding to the quote about the spring loaded wrist sheath, not my comment about taking an item from someone requiring a move action. I was confused!**

**:
Sadly, not an atypical state for The Great Rinaldo ...

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Here's an interesting one that one of my locals just thought up for a level 1 character needing to try and escape / get away:

Potion of Sanctuary

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

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Mike Bramnik wrote:

Here's an interesting one that one of my locals just thought up for a level 1 character needing to try and escape / get away:

Potion of Sanctuary

DC 11 Will save negates. 1 round duration.

A Potion of Vanish has the same duration, but doesn't offer any sort of save to bypass. And works against Undead, to boot.

Silver Crusade

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Chugging a potion provokes AoO's, which is bad. If you can 5 ft step away, you may be ok, though you'll spend all your actions pulling it out and drinking it, so the enemies will still know where you are when you go invis. With vanish, the invisibility gives a 50% miss chance, which is probably slightly better than the DC 11 will save of sanctuary.

If you're really worried about getting away, remember that you can always withdraw to just run away for free, and not provoke from your first 5 feet of movement. A lot of people forget about that option.

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