Commonly Overlooked Tactics


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DarthGoob wrote:

So where are the rules about "reach uses ranged rules for cover"? I have some "rules lawyers" at my tables sometimes. I am probably just looking right over it someplace obvious.

Thanks!

Right in the cover section.

Quote:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

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DarthGoob wrote:

So where are the rules about "reach uses ranged rules for cover"? I have some "rules lawyers" at my tables sometimes. I am probably just looking right over it someplace obvious.

Thanks!

Core Rulebook, page 195, end of second paragraph under Cover wrote:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, South Carolina aka DarthGoob

kinevon wrote:
DarthGoob wrote:

So where are the rules about "reach uses ranged rules for cover"? I have some "rules lawyers" at my tables sometimes. I am probably just looking right over it someplace obvious.

Thanks!

Core Rulebook, page 195, end of second paragraph under Cover wrote:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Thanks kinevon and thejeff. I can't memorize the whole dang book. I guess that's why we .. um, like have the book. :)


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A personal favorite and often overlooked tactic of mine is the delay initiative action. Players in general tend to have a desire to rush into combat to get there first and do all the damage. In PFS, this escalates into almost a player against player race to the combat. But if you are fighting melee foes, and you wait for them to approach you, you have the advantage. Maybe it is indicative of something that so many enemies have a single salvo of ranged attacks or round of buffs at their disposal. Maybe its a good idea not to be there first to get beat on by the enemy thugs. Maybe its just me.

Another one that I personally like is the drag maneuver or reposition to pull the squishy caster out of the way from an enemy without provoking attacks of opportunity. In my home KM game, it has become a foregone conclusion that if our Sorcerer gets pinned down in melee, my Ranger will yank him out to a safer distance.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Reposition is definitely under used (though my ac-wall tank uses it to good advantage to adjust the tactical situation. "Here, you be BEHIND me where the rogue can flank...")

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
+2 DRaino wrote:
Another one that I personally like is the drag maneuver or reposition to pull the squishy caster out of the way from an enemy without provoking attacks of opportunity.

The Drag and Reposition maneuvers really start falling apart when applied to allies. At my table, the dragged PC does provoke attacks of opportunity. I expect others will rule the same. So, expect table variation.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Will Johnson wrote:
+2 DRaino wrote:
Another one that I personally like is the drag maneuver or reposition to pull the squishy caster out of the way from an enemy without provoking attacks of opportunity.
The Drag and Reposition maneuvers really start falling apart when applied to allies. At my table, the dragged PC does provoke attacks of opportunity. I expect others will rule the same. So, expect table variation.

I usually save doing things like that for getting the squishy from the back to the middle of a retreat, or for pulling back an unconscious ally.

The enemy's AOO is usually better saved for other targets in the second case.... (usually).

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

TetsujinOni wrote:
Will Johnson wrote:
+2 DRaino wrote:
Another one that I personally like is the drag maneuver or reposition to pull the squishy caster out of the way from an enemy without provoking attacks of opportunity.
The Drag and Reposition maneuvers really start falling apart when applied to allies. At my table, the dragged PC does provoke attacks of opportunity. I expect others will rule the same. So, expect table variation.

I usually save doing things like that for getting the squishy from the back to the middle of a retreat, or for pulling back an unconscious ally.

The enemy's AOO is usually better saved for other targets in the second case.... (usually).

Since you need the "greater" feats for both to get an AoO on a foe, why shouldn´t the same be true for PC´s? I think this is kind of a grey zone here. Eventually you are even punishing a player for the actions of another player he might not be cool with. In case of an AoO one PC burns an action and another becomes attacked. Might be ok if the attacked one can do something meaningfull this way in the next round. It´s a bit discouraging for good roleplay though i think. I would probably key the outcome to the foes CMD. Repositioning/dragging PC´s CMB roll is better, no AoO.


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One well honed tactic my group forgets is FLANKING!

No joke, they will often let someone fight one on one instead of assisting.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

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Yeah right! Outflanking, someone with a menacing weapon and reach weapons combined with gang-up are among the mightiest melee techniques!

Also a bard with a menacing long spear and the flag-bearer feat is something heavy.

Grand Lodge

I could have sworn that soft cover did not protect VS AOO but I can not find it ATM. Keep in mind you can not use soft cover to play leapfrog to prevent AOO's. When you pass through a occupied square your friend no longer provides cover.

PRD wrote:


Listed under Cover

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check

Listed under moving through a square

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Crispy3ed wrote:
I could have sworn that soft cover did not protect VS AOO but I can not find it ATM. Keep in mind you can not use soft cover to play leapfrog to prevent AOO's. When you pass through a occupied square your friend no longer provides cover.

But the AoO would occur while they were in the "covered" space, not after. Same reason you can't trip-lock someone by using the AoO when they stand to trip them again: the AoO happens first, before their intended action has actually changed anything.

So if I'm in a threatened space that has cover, that's the space we'll be looking at if I would provoke. (On the flip side, if I'm in a threatened space *without* cover, and I move into a space that has cover, I still get whacked, for the same reason.)

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

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Jiggy wrote:
So if I'm in a threatened space that has cover, that's the space we'll be looking at if I would provoke. (On the flip side, if I'm in a threatened space *without* cover, and I move into a space that has cover, I still get whacked, for the same reason.)

What's really beautiful is if you need to withdraw and there's someone there and the monster has 10 ft. reach. It allows you to ignore AoO's for the first square and then you can duck behind the soft cover and escape.

Most people I know go for the flank, though, but it certain situations...

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Some overlooked tactics I have seen:

Focused fire. All too often the people I play with wind up with most of the monsters one hit away from down, but with them all able to attack. Take a monster down, don't each fight one-on-one with each creature.

Positioning and environment. Use the terrain, don't just let your opponents make use of it, use it yourself. This is where having reanged or reach attacks can be a great benefit. Make your enemies suffer from the bottleneck, if you can.

Have ways to deal with difficult opponents. Alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, universal glue, special material ammunition, "Batman" potions (fly, gaseous form, invisibility, etc.), anti-toxin & anti-plague, rope, rope and more rope.

Tools, masterwork or otherwise. Crowbar, pick, shovel, books of information (not fast, but still useful)

Money for bribes!!!

The Exchange 5/5

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Here's an odd tactic.

Fighting a creature with a bunch of Mirror Images up...
Close your eyes before you swing. You now have a 50% miss chance, rather than a 1 in X of hitting.

Another...

Buy a potion of Deafness.
If you drink it (fail your save), you are deaf (no sound attacks - harpies anyone?) until it is dismissed - which you can do.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nosig wrote:

Buy a potion of Deafness.

If you drink it (fail your save), you are deaf (no sound attacks - harpies anyone?) until it is dismissed - which you can do.

Nice! Of course, you'd have to know there was a harpy around before they started singing...

Sovereign Court

nosig wrote:

Here's an odd tactic.

Fighting a creature with a bunch of Mirror Images up...
Close your eyes before you swing. You now have a 50% miss chance, rather than a 1 in X of hitting.

Nice! That's quite humourous.

nosig wrote:

Another...

Buy a potion of Deafness.
If you drink it (fail your save), you are deaf (no sound attacks - harpies anyone?) until it is dismissed - which you can do.

A cheaper alternative to this (from another thread that I saw): Drop a Thunderstone on the ground and voluntarily fail your save. Granted, you might not be able to dismiss the effect, but if gp is a concern, it is cheaper...

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

Can you voluntarily fail your save vs. a thunderstone? I see verbiage about voluntary failing your save, but only implies you can vs. a spell.

Paizo PRD wrote:
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Sovereign Court

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Varthanna wrote:

Going prone against ranged attackers. Seriously, everyone gives me crazy eyes when I do it with my life oracle!

"The goblins start shooting arrows at you from atop the bluff!"

"I lay down."

Bam. +4 AC, doesnt hinder my spellcasting.

Oh, I'm behind the fighter? Guess I have Soft cover, too. Another +4 to my AC.

Also, using soft cover to prevent AoOs.

This works well for ranged attacks as well. Since dropping prone is a free action, you can take a full-round attack and drop prone. Following rounds, stand, shoot, drop again. Works when there aren't any enemies to threaten melee attacks. Just hope your enemies don't get wise and start doing the same.

Lantern Lodge

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nosig wrote:

Here's an odd tactic.

Fighting a creature with a bunch of Mirror Images up...
Close your eyes before you swing. You now have a 50% miss chance, rather than a 1 in X of hitting.

A useful tactic, but be prepared for a judge to rule that you are effectively blind for the rounds that you are "closing your eyes".


I'd probably rule that way too. You certainly wouldn't destroy one of the images when you missed either.

The Exchange 5/5

Still a workable tactic.

5/5

nosig wrote:
Still a workable tactic.

Indeed--particularly if you pick up Blind-Fighting in anticipation of using the tactic.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You know that 1st level spell Summon Minor Monster?

Use it to summon 1d3 skunks.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Wait, I thought you could only summon from the first Bestiary in PFS...?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Nefreet wrote:

You know that 1st level spell Summon Minor Monster?

Use it to summon 1d3 skunks.

That's not a tactic so much as a spell :P

Using color spray in level 1 game is a good tactic too.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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For an earth elemental shaped druid or incoporeal person.: 5 foot step DOWN into the ground when low on hp.

Summon nature's ally/monster for multiple low level critters. 6 hitpoints or not, you can't walk through them, so when uber Hacker swings and deals 49 hit points to go through, he's still lost his attack for that round. They also make good flank buddies

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Wait, I thought you could only summon from the first Bestiary in PFS...?

Can you? It was suggested to me by another player, so maybe not if he was misinformed himself. I don't see anything about it not being legal on the additional resources page.


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nosig wrote:

Here's an odd tactic.

Fighting a creature with a bunch of Mirror Images up...
Close your eyes before you swing. You now have a 50% miss chance, rather than a 1 in X of hitting.

Another...

Buy a potion of Deafness.
If you drink it (fail your save), you are deaf (no sound attacks - harpies anyone?) until it is dismissed - which you can do.

A thunderstone. Just in case harpies turn up. Not for them. For me.

The Exchange 5/5

yeah, I heard that before. I like the ability to switch it off, though having the thunderstone means I can deafen more than just my PC with it. You do have to worry that the judge may not allow you to fail the save vs. the stone, as Yiroep pointed out above, that might not be an option (depends on the Judge - YMMV).

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

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Nefreet wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Wait, I thought you could only summon from the first Bestiary in PFS...?
Can you? It was suggested to me by another player, so maybe not if he was misinformed himself. I don't see anything about it not being legal on the additional resources page.

The AR page generally says what is legal, not what isn't.

There are a couple of exceptions to this, e.g. Ultimate Combat, but those are clearly marked.

In terms of legality, Mark Moreland states that creatures from Bestiaries 2 & 3 aren't legal for summoning in this thread.

5/5

The default for anything outside the CRB is not legal. Since bestiaries 2 & 3 do not appear on the additional resources list they are not legal.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka Gwen Smith

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:

1) Aid another! Helping an ally hit or defend against a particularly hard hitting/hard to hit foe can really help out!

I've made a character focused on aiding another.

Halfling Bard 1/Order of the Dragon Cavalier (Honor Guard) 4 (Going for Battle Herald next)
Currently he can grant +4 to attack while aiding another or +6 to AC with and/or another +2 shield bonus as an immediate action. Add on inspire courage and several other tricks, and he's a fun addition to a group.

I'm guessing you took the Helpful trait to get the +4? Bodyguard is nice for this kind of build, too.

I'm working on a "Helpful Halfling" build, too, but I haven't worked out all the kinks. My guy is taking Cautious Fighter (+1 dodge bonus to AC from fighting defensively) and Blundering Defense (all adjacent allies get half your bonus when you fight defensively or go total defense). Add Crane Style and three ranks in Acrobatics--then, start doing aid another while fighting defensively:

Halfling gets +6 AC (and only -2 to attack)
Aided character gets +7 AC (or +3 AC and +4 to hit)
All adjacent allies get +3 AC

Only downside is the Halfling can't do much else besides aid another. I'm trying to decide how much of a problem that would be.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Here's my character so far:
Alamander
Male Halfling Bard 1 Cavalier (Honor Guard) 4
NG Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +1; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +1 size, +2 dodge)
hp 43 (4d10+1d8+10)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +4; +2 vs. fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +5 (1d3+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Lance +6 (1d6+3/x3) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Morningstar +6 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +6 (1d6+2/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day, bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (1 targets) (dc 12), bardic performance: inspire courage +1, dragon's challenge +4 (2/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Light (At will)
Bard Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Saving Finale (DC 13), Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Resistance, Prestidigitation (DC 12), Detect Magic, Mending
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 18
Feats Antagonize, Bodyguard, Combat Expertise +/-2, Paired Opportunists, Saving Shield, Skill Focus (Handle Animal)
Traits Helpful, Horse Lord
Skills Acrobatics +1 (-3 jump), Diplomacy +10, Fly +3, Handle Animal +13, Intimidate +10, Linguistics +5, Perception +6, Perform (oratory) +10, Profession (soldier) +5, Ride +13, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +5, Survival +4 (+6 to avoid becoming lost, +6 to provide food and water for allies or to protect allies from harsh weather), Use Magic Device +6 Modifiers +0 ride while riding your bonded mount., dragon's skills
Languages Common, Goblin, Halfling, Kelish
SQ aid allies +3, animal companion link, bardic knowledge, benevolent, fearless, intercept, orders (order of the dragon), sworn defense, tactician (paired opportunists) 5 rds (1/day)
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 Benevolent Mithral Chain shirt, Darkwood Heavy wooden shield, Masterwork Cold Iron Lance, Masterwork Cold Iron Morningstar, Masterwork Longsword, Sleeves of many garments, Wayfinder (empty), Backpack, masterwork (7 @ 11.5 lbs), Belt pouch (5 @ 2 lbs), Drill, False-bottomed scabbard, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Hollowed pommel (1 @ 0 lbs), Hollowed pommel (1 @ 0 lbs), Mirror, Pocketed scarf, Skeleton key (2), Spell component pouch, Spider's silk rope, String or twine (2), Waterskin, Wire saw, Wire saw, Wire saw, 1666 GP, 4 SP, 8 CP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+0 Ride while riding your bonded mount. (Ex) Cancel your armor check penalty of -0 while riding your mount.
Aid Allies +3 (Ex) Aid Another grants +3
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Antagonize Use Diplomacy or Intimidate to goad creatures
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (1 targets) (DC 12) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Benevolent Aid another to boost AC increases bonus by 1.
Bodyguard Use an AoO to use aid another to improve an ally's AC.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Dragon's Challenge +4 (2/day) (Ex) +4 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +2 to hit the target of your challenge.
Dragon's Skills +2 (Ex) +2 to Survival checks for allies.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Helpful Aid another grants allies a +4 bonus (instead of usual +2).
Intercept Increase AC bonus granted to ally from aid another by +1.
Paired Opportunists +4 to hit for AoOs if you and an ally with this feat both threaten the target.
Saving Shield As an immediate action, add a +2 shield bonus to an adjacent ally's AC.
Skeleton key Use a +10 Disable Device for one try to open a lock.
Sleeves of many garments Transform current clothes into any non-magical new form.
Sworn Defense (Ex) Select a ward during a challange, sacrificing AC to grant bonus to ward's AC.
Tactician (Paired Opportunists) 5 rds (1/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your Tactical feats to your allies within 30'.
Wayfinder (empty) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).

Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp

I've only actually gotten to play him once since he's mostly GM credit, but he worked quite well when I did.

Dark Archive

Gwen Smith wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:

1) Aid another! Helping an ally hit or defend against a particularly hard hitting/hard to hit foe can really help out!

I've made a character focused on aiding another.

Halfling Bard 1/Order of the Dragon Cavalier (Honor Guard) 4 (Going for Battle Herald next)
Currently he can grant +4 to attack while aiding another or +6 to AC with and/or another +2 shield bonus as an immediate action. Add on inspire courage and several other tricks, and he's a fun addition to a group.

I'm guessing you took the Helpful trait to get the +4? Bodyguard is nice for this kind of build, too.

I'm working on a "Helpful Halfling" build, too, but I haven't worked out all the kinks. My guy is taking Cautious Fighter (+1 dodge bonus to AC from fighting defensively) and Blundering Defense (all adjacent allies get half your bonus when you fight defensively or go total defense). Add Crane Style and three ranks in Acrobatics--then, start doing aid another while fighting defensively:

Halfling gets +6 AC (and only -2 to attack)
Aided character gets +7 AC (or +3 AC and +4 to hit)
All adjacent allies get +3 AC

Only downside is the Halfling can't do much else besides aid another. I'm trying to decide how much of a problem that would be.

You cant fight defensively and aid another in the same combat round, they are both seperate and distinct standard actions

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Fighting defensively isn't a standard action. You can do it as part of a standard action attack, or as part of a full-attack action.

Quote:
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
Quote:
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.
Quote:

Aid Another

In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

Since when you Aid Another you're making an attack, you can take your penalty and fight defensively.

Also, Aid Another isn't always a standard action, certain feats can change what type of action it is. Swift Aid makes it a swift action, though reduces the bonus granted, Team Up makes it a move action if you have two allies adjacent to the enemy, while Bodyguard makes it an AoO but only for AC.

Shadow Lodge

[off topic]Stinks that you can't aid another with a ranged attack. Between soft cover from firing through allies, and the penalty for firing into melee, I've seen low level ranged characters that felt like they couldn't do anything useful. :'( [/off topic]

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Paz wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Wait, I thought you could only summon from the first Bestiary in PFS...?
Can you? It was suggested to me by another player, so maybe not if he was misinformed himself. I don't see anything about it not being legal on the additional resources page.

The AR page generally says what is legal, not what isn't.

In terms of legality, Mark Moreland states that creatures from Bestiaries 2 & 3 aren't legal for summoning in this thread.

That quote doesn't apply to Summon Minor Monster, though. The question being asked there pertains to adding creatures from Bestiaries 2 & 3 to the Summon Monster list. There is no list for Summon Minor Monster, it just specifies any tiny-sized animal.

I can't find anywhere that says skunks are not legal for summoning. Anyone else have anything?

Shadow Lodge

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Aelryinth wrote:
It takes a move action to direct something that isn't intelligent...maybe. Anything trained or intelligent is basically free to direct. Huzzah the personal army.

Handling a trained animal is a move action. Pushing (trying to get it to do something it isn't trained for) is a Standard. Commanding undead is, apparently, a free action. Eidolons and Familiars (and other intelligent companions) can be commanded verbally as a free action.

I don't know why animals are harder to control than mindless undead, but MAGIC! ;)

4/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Paz wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Wait, I thought you could only summon from the first Bestiary in PFS...?
Can you? It was suggested to me by another player, so maybe not if he was misinformed himself. I don't see anything about it not being legal on the additional resources page.

The AR page generally says what is legal, not what isn't.

In terms of legality, Mark Moreland states that creatures from Bestiaries 2 & 3 aren't legal for summoning in this thread.

That quote doesn't apply to Summon Minor Monster, though. The question being asked there pertains to adding creatures from Bestiaries 2 & 3 to the Summon Monster list. There is no list for Summon Minor Monster, it just specifies any tiny-sized animal.

I can't find anywhere that says skunks are not legal for summoning. Anyone else have anything?

For PFS purposes, I believe that the spell would be restricted to the specific animals listed. For SMM and SMA: bats, lizards, monkeys, rats, ravens, toads, or weasels.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'll post a separate thread, so as not to bog down this one.

The Exchange 5/5

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Mystic Lemur wrote:
[off topic]Stinks that you can't aid another with a ranged attack. Between soft cover from firing through allies, and the penalty for firing into melee, I've seen low level ranged characters that felt like they couldn't do anything useful. :'( [/off topic]

Often, at lower level play, with an archer in play, my frontliners will 5' step away from combat at the end of thier attack. This gives the archer (and others) a clear shot at the monster (or at worst, just the soft cover from me). Using a reach weapon helps too, so I might do that as well.

Also, this rule helps too:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the -4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character." (CRB pg. 184)
It's surprising how many people don't know this...

This works something like this....

OOxxxA
OOxxxx
xBxxxx

A is an archer
B is his friend who is in melee with an
O is an ogre

A has a clear shot at the Ogre.

Dark Archive

I've always required another square of space for that rule to activate. Since not all of the NE 'O' square is 10ft away from all of the 'B' square.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I've always seen it as applying so long as there is one square they can draw a line to that is 10' away from their buddy.

Then there is improved precise shot which says, I DON"T CARE.

The Exchange 5/5

Victor Zajic wrote:

I've always required another square of space for that rule to activate. Since not all of the NE 'O' square is 10ft away from all of the 'B' square.

I wish to, in the nicest way possible, point out that you are wrong on this point.

xAxxx
xCxxx
xBxxD

A and B are 10 feet apart so ... "...is at least 10 feet away..."

so if B and C are enemies of A and D then D can fire at B without the -4.
and if it looks like this...

xAxxx
CCxxx
CCxxD

then D can fire "...at the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character..."

SO D has a clear shot at C.

Otherwise you have to say that A and B are not 10' apart, that they are something greater than 5' but slightly less than 15'. (which in the grid system we use, would be 10').

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

That would be true if A and C were going at each other with ranged weapons, but as soon as one has a melee weapon you need precise shot or take -4. A doesn´t get soft cover versus D most probably though.

The Exchange 5/5

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Hayato Ken wrote:
That would be true if A and C were going at each other with ranged weapons, but as soon as one has a melee weapon you need precise shot or take -4. A doesn´t get soft cover versus D most probably though.

CRB - PG. 184, the sectoin on "Shooting or Throwing into a Melee." Paragraph 2 states:

"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the -4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."

SO...
A and C are in a Melee? Yes
D is shooting into the melee? Yes
the part of C that D is aiming at is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character? Yes
Then D avoids the -4 penalty for firing into a melee, even if the C is engaged in melee with A.

many people have not read this rule, they just learned it from someone else, who learned it from someone who didn't read the second paragraph. And when some people do read it, they assume that what it says, can not be what it says, 'cause they know the rule and that's not the way they do it.

Please, read the rule, think about what it says. If you still think it does not apply "...as soon as one has a melee weapon..." I would be interested in listening to why you feel that way.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I think the disagreement is what ten feet is. Is ten feet away AxxB or is it AxB. I think it is the latter of the two.

Note that if a person is firing from the same side as their ally they see.

xx
xA

They can not target a square that is ten feet away.

Back to the topic:
One uncommon tactic I employ is delaying in initiative if you are last to top of initiative. This is particularly useful if you think there may be more people entering the fight.

The Exchange 5/5

Mahtobedis wrote:

I think the disagreement is what ten feet is. Is ten feet away AxxB or is it AxB. I think it is the latter of the two.

I think the disagreement is what 10 feet is IN THIS CAST ONLY.

No one questions how far 10 feet is if you need to move it. A move of 10 feet is (from sq. A to sq. B) AxxB or is it AxB?
No one questions how far 10 feet is if you are talking about reach. A Reach of 10 feet is (A swinging on B, where A has a 10 foot reach) AxxB or is it AxB?
No one questions how far 10 feet is if you are talking about range. A thrown dagger has a range of 10 feet. Is 10 foot range (A throwing a dagger at B, is the first range increment) AxxB or is it AxB?

So you have the interesting bit where ten feet away is AxxB, but ONLY for shooting into a melee.

I think it more likely that people are starting from the assumption that shooting into a melee gives a -4 in all cases, so now that they know that - they assume that the second paragraph says that. When in fact it does not.

Mahtobedis wrote:


Note that if a person is firing from the same side as their ally they see.

xx
xA

They can not target a square that is ten feet away.

I do not understand your example. Can you give me a target and shooterin the example above?

Mahtobedis wrote:

Back to the topic:
One uncommon tactic I employ is delaying in initiative if you are last to top of initiative. This is particularly useful if you think there may be more people entering the fight.

"Ready" and "Delay" actions are ... often misunderstood and so are uncommon tactics.


Fromper wrote:

Something I've wondered, but never actually done: Can cure potions be used as splash weapons against undead?

one GM let us play with CLW potions as a splash weapons.

"so, now we have a holy hand granade"
its a good splash weapon at any given level (the only damage which actualy splash was the caster level)

curelight wounds deals 1d8+1 positive energy damage (and for the adjacent enemies, the splash damage is +1)

CMW 2d8+3 (splash damage of 3) and so

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