paizo.com Recent Posts in Where has my battle cleric gone?paizo.com Recent Posts in Where has my battle cleric gone?2013-09-13T05:35:52Z2013-09-13T05:35:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Peter Stewarthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#642012-12-25T16:05:40Z2012-12-25T16:05:40Z<p>The battle cleric as it existed in late 3.5 is dead, and good riddance to it. Instead of serving as the catch-all master of melee, tough as nails, full spellcaster of doom the cleric is now simply a tough as nails full spellcaster who can melee if dedicated to it.</p>
<p>In place of battle clerics you now have Paladins that are actually playable and exciting serving in the roll as holy warriors, and inquisitors which fill the middling roll as instruments of divine vengeance with some nice spells thrown on top.</p>
<p>I don't see how that is a bad thing. It makes far more sense to me to split the a dedicated divine spellcaster and dedicated divine warrior into different classes.</p>The battle cleric as it existed in late 3.5 is dead, and good riddance to it. Instead of serving as the catch-all master of melee, tough as nails, full spellcaster of doom the cleric is now simply a tough as nails full spellcaster who can melee if dedicated to it.
In place of battle clerics you now have Paladins that are actually playable and exciting serving in the roll as holy warriors, and inquisitors which fill the middling roll as instruments of divine vengeance with some nice spells...Peter Stewart2012-12-25T16:05:40ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?notabothttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#632012-12-25T12:46:13Z2012-12-25T02:55:02Z<p>Maces are cool once you know what they are good for. Flanged maces are medieval can openers. And that mailed knight over there is Cambell's extra chunky.</p>Maces are cool once you know what they are good for. Flanged maces are medieval can openers. And that mailed knight over there is Cambell's extra chunky.notabot2012-12-25T02:55:02ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Rynjinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#622012-12-25T01:28:59Z2012-12-25T01:28:59Z<p>I never even played D&D back in the day and have always pictured Clerics with maces.</p>
<p>That's a lot of whatchacallit, cultural osmosis.</p>I never even played D&D back in the day and have always pictured Clerics with maces.
That's a lot of whatchacallit, cultural osmosis.Rynjin2012-12-25T01:28:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Pendagasthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#612012-12-25T01:19:30Z2012-12-25T01:19:30Z<p>I'm pretty happy with the cleric (always thought channeling was OP, but whatever ill takes it, Ill takes my precious) when I played as a youth, the cleric was always the party leader. the worst part was always getting stuck with a mace, or hammer, or flail.</p>
<p>Hence why priest of tempest was always a favorite for me, and then with feats and such, you could always take another weapon.</p>
<p>It's also interesting to note, that these days i think flail is a cooler weapon that i did as a kid. IS that because the game has changed it or my view of it has changed?</p>
<p>I still cant "picture" using a dire flail tho, something about that just makes me think it wont work...</p>I'm pretty happy with the cleric (always thought channeling was OP, but whatever ill takes it, Ill takes my precious) when I played as a youth, the cleric was always the party leader. the worst part was always getting stuck with a mace, or hammer, or flail.
Hence why priest of tempest was always a favorite for me, and then with feats and such, you could always take another weapon.
It's also interesting to note, that these days i think flail is a cooler weapon that i did as a kid. IS that...Pendagast2012-12-25T01:19:30ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#602012-12-24T23:59:55Z2012-12-24T23:59:55Z<p>And advancing spells every level means they NEVER had a dead level, they always got to look forwards to more toys.</p>
<p>You don't need extra class features all that much if you've the right toys...and clerics get the toys.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>And advancing spells every level means they NEVER had a dead level, they always got to look forwards to more toys.
You don't need extra class features all that much if you've the right toys...and clerics get the toys.
==AelryinthAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2012-12-24T23:59:55ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Diego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#592012-12-24T19:09:54Z2012-12-24T19:09:54Z<p>As James Jacobs pointed out several times, the cleric are already the class with the highest page count in the core rulebook. Paizo had problems enlarging their section even more.</p>
<p>That said they have got 2 domains against 1 school for wizards, one mystery for oracles and one bloodline for sorcerers, subdomains, alternate channeling and access to all the spell in the books without need to learn them.
<br />
It is a solid class.</p>As James Jacobs pointed out several times, the cleric are already the class with the highest page count in the core rulebook. Paizo had problems enlarging their section even more.
That said they have got 2 domains against 1 school for wizards, one mystery for oracles and one bloodline for sorcerers, subdomains, alternate channeling and access to all the spell in the books without need to learn them.
It is a solid class.Diego Rossi2012-12-24T19:09:54ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#582014-02-20T18:19:39Z2012-12-24T15:13:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rynjin wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Jt Squish wrote:</div><blockquote> I love clerics. Have for a while and I don't see that changing anytime soon. But where has the "oomph" in the battle cleric gone? I loved my battle cleric in 3.5, and I know that the pathfinder cleric is a different beast, but where is the Gorumite archetype or PrC? </blockquote>Take Gorum as a god and pick the Rage Sub-Domain? </blockquote><p>And the anger inquisition for good measure...Rynjin wrote:Jt Squish wrote: I love clerics. Have for a while and I don't see that changing anytime soon. But where has the "oomph" in the battle cleric gone? I loved my battle cleric in 3.5, and I know that the pathfinder cleric is a different beast, but where is the Gorumite archetype or PrC?
Take Gorum as a god and pick the Rage Sub-Domain? And the anger inquisition for good measure...spalding (alias of Abraham spalding)2012-12-24T15:13:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?"Devil's Advocate" (alias of Beckett)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#572012-12-24T14:44:11Z2012-12-24T14:44:11Z<p>I do think a small list of Bonus Feats (4 at most) would be a great idea, personally. Especially if they focused on alloing the Cleric to specialize along a "path", (spellcasting, crusader, or channeling).</p>
<p>Crusader might get later access to things like Weapon Focus/Specialization (Deity Favored Weapon only), Toughness and Armor/Shield options.</p>
<p>Spellcaster might get Combat Casting, a few Metamagic Feats, Spell Focus/Penetration, etc. . .</p>
<p>Channeler might get things like Extra/Improved Channel, Alignment Channeling, etc. . .</p>I do think a small list of Bonus Feats (4 at most) would be a great idea, personally. Especially if they focused on alloing the Cleric to specialize along a "path", (spellcasting, crusader, or channeling).
Crusader might get later access to things like Weapon Focus/Specialization (Deity Favored Weapon only), Toughness and Armor/Shield options.
Spellcaster might get Combat Casting, a few Metamagic Feats, Spell Focus/Penetration, etc. . .
Channeler might get things like Extra/Improved..."Devil's Advocate" (alias of Beckett)2012-12-24T14:44:11ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?yeti1069https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#562012-12-24T09:49:09Z2012-12-24T09:49:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">"Devil's Advocate" wrote:</div><blockquote> Paladins have become the defacto holy warrior, which was always (until PF) the role of the Cleric. In PF, Paladins (after a few levels) can keep up with and exceed in the healing dept, (and even swift action heal themselves), and begin to also, on the fly, remove various conditions for free. The Cleric has to have the right spell prepped to do that, and even then will tend to have only one (or two if your lucky) of those prepped. In a sense, that's basically giving the Paladin the equivalent of spontanious all Remove spells for free. Extra Channel can only be taken once, but Paladins can take Extra Lay on Hands & Channel Energy, and are Cha based Class, slightly behind the Cleric in MAD. <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p> Lay On Hands is nice, but I really don't think it compares to the cleric's reserves as far as healing goes. It doesn't come close in healing power to Mass Cure spells, and Heal does very much the same thing as a Mercy'ed up LOH while also healing for much more, albeit usable fewer times per day. Clerics are also going to be able to Channel Energy to heal multiple allies more often, since they do so at a 1:1, rather than 2:1 ratio.</p>
<p>Paladins are excellent at healing themselves, and mediocre at healing anyone else except in a few situations.</p>
<p>As for dead levels, I'll totally agree that the cleric got royally screwed with PF. I never liked the fact that in 3.5 clerics had the least interesting-looking level progression besides the sorcerer (and they at least got an animal companion that continued to level). Essentially what the designers of PF decided is that channel energy + access to all your spells without needing to buy/learn them + medium BAB/2 good saves/medium armor = 5 bonus feats, a familiar/bonded object, more interesting specialty features (schools vs. domains), and better spells overall.</p>
<p>That may be somewhat true, but it makes for a very boring class. I'd much rather the cleric had their spell list access truncated somewhat, and gained some class features. In the 3.5 games I DM'ed, I gave clerics a bonus feat at 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 that could be a Divine feat (fueled with turn undead uses), or a Devotion feat (from Complete Champion), or Spell Focus. There were enough options there to allow a cleric to focus more on casting, healing or on melee as they chose.</p>"Devil's Advocate" wrote:Paladins have become the defacto holy warrior, which was always (until PF) the role of the Cleric. In PF, Paladins (after a few levels) can keep up with and exceed in the healing dept, (and even swift action heal themselves), and begin to also, on the fly, remove various conditions for free. The Cleric has to have the right spell prepped to do that, and even then will tend to have only one (or two if your lucky) of those prepped. In a sense, that's basically giving...yeti10692012-12-24T09:49:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?yeti1069https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#552012-12-24T09:32:39Z2012-12-24T09:32:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kimera757 wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>but divine power used to give you a +6 enhancement bonus to strength along with increasing your BAB equal to your HD and giving you temp HP equal to caster level.</blockquote><p>Here's what the SRD (Pathfinder version) says:
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, </blockquote>A +1 attack boost/4 levels would actually fill in for BAB. You are correct that it no longer gives a Strength boost. You'll need to wait two levels for that. (I think Paizo didn't want those two spells stacking.)</blockquote><p>Except that it doesn't stack with Divine Favor, which means you're trading a level 1 spell for a level 4(?) that continues to level, gives some temp HP, a semi-irrelevant bonus to Str-based checks, and a useful extra attack (a la Haste) and that doesn't improve your Power Attack (or other BAB dependent feats and abilities, like CMB/CMD), whereas the old spell granted you Str, BAB, AND stacked with Divine Favor. Sure, getting to prepare/cast something else in that slot is nice, but I don't think it's as nice as previously being able to get full BAB +3.Kimera757 wrote: Quote:but divine power used to give you a +6 enhancement bonus to strength along with increasing your BAB equal to your HD and giving you temp HP equal to caster level.
Here's what the SRD (Pathfinder version) says: Quote:Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls,
A +1 attack boost/4 levels would actually fill in for BAB. You are correct that it no longer...yeti10692012-12-24T09:32:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?notabothttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#542012-12-24T08:39:08Z2012-12-24T08:39:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Pendagast wrote:</div><blockquote><p> In MMO the battle clerics usually are better builds than the full fighters, in fact not usually, always.
</p>
</blockquote><p>So true, In GW2 the guardian despite having the lowest HP pool is considered to be better than that warrior at everything other than running around in PVE (and even then its almost hard to actually die as long as you roll your head on the keyboard enough).Pendagast wrote:In MMO the battle clerics usually are better builds than the full fighters, in fact not usually, always.
So true, In GW2 the guardian despite having the lowest HP pool is considered to be better than that warrior at everything other than running around in PVE (and even then its almost hard to actually die as long as you roll your head on the keyboard enough).notabot2012-12-24T08:39:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Azaelas Fayth (alias of JTMC93)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#532012-12-23T19:57:45Z2012-12-23T19:57:45Z<p>Dot.</p>Dot.Azaelas Fayth (alias of JTMC93)2012-12-23T19:57:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#522012-12-23T19:00:20Z2012-12-23T19:00:20Z<p>Heh.</p>
<p>If you read the original Red Wizards of Thay book (the 1E version), all of the Protection scrolls were turned into Wmagic-user spells in that book. Somehow, only Thayans knew how to cast them, despite the scrolls being around forever.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>Heh.
If you read the original Red Wizards of Thay book (the 1E version), all of the Protection scrolls were turned into Wmagic-user spells in that book. Somehow, only Thayans knew how to cast them, despite the scrolls being around forever.
==AelryinthAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2012-12-23T19:00:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Where has my battle cleric gone?Diego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pau6&page=2?Where-has-my-battle-cleric-gone#512012-12-23T18:32:47Z2012-12-23T18:32:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">"Devil's Advocate" wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Actually, no, anyone can use scrolls of protection. </blockquote><p>That were very specific scrolls, protecting you and an area against fire, petrification or other effects, not curing you or casting protection from evil, the examples you made of stepping on the cleric feet.
</p>
With the exception of protection from cold or fire none of those prospection effects mimicked a spell available to clerics.</p>"Devil's Advocate" wrote:Actually, no, anyone can use scrolls of protection.
That were very specific scrolls, protecting you and an area against fire, petrification or other effects, not curing you or casting protection from evil, the examples you made of stepping on the cleric feet.
With the exception of protection from cold or fire none of those prospection effects mimicked a spell available to clerics.Diego Rossi2012-12-23T18:32:47Z