Feat Mechanics Question


Rules Questions


First: If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the standard attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single standard attack? Examples below.

Focused Shot
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make an attack with a bow or crossbow and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll. You must be within 30 feet of your target to deal this extra damage. Creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this extra damage.
Pinpoint Targeting
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
Vital Strike
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

If all three feats are applied to the same attack against a target within 30 feet of the character, then a character with 12 Intelligence would make a single attack with a medium-sized longbow against the target's touch AC, for 2d8+1. Is that right, and can a character do that? If not, then which feats can be applied together?

Second: If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the full attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single full attack? Examples below.

Many Shot
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
Rapid Shot
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Shadow Lodge

Flashblade wrote:

First: If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the standard attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single standard attack? Examples below.

Focused Shot
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make an attack with a bow or crossbow and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll. You must be within 30 feet of your target to deal this extra damage. Creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this extra damage.
Pinpoint Targeting
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
Vital Strike
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

If all three feats are applied to the same attack against a target within 30 feet of the character, then a character with 12 Intelligence would make a single attack with a medium-sized longbow against the target's touch AC, for 2d8+1. Is that right, and can a character do that? If not, then which feats can be applied together?

Second: If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the full attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single full attack? Examples below.

Many Shot
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage...

As far as I know all of the feats apply as long as the condition is met. So on a standard attack if you do not move you do get the benefits of Focused Shot, Pinpoint Targeting and Vital Strike.

If you take a full attack action with a bow you get both Many Shot and Rapid Shot benefits.


Flashblade wrote:
If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the standard attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single standard attack?

Probably, assuming they both actually modify the attack action and are compatible.

Flashblade wrote:
Benefit: As a standard action...

Focused Shot and Pinpoint Targeting are both specific standard actions, they do not use the attack action. They are incompatible with each other, as well as with Vital Strike.

Flashblade wrote:
If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the full attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single full attack?

Probably, assuming they both actually modify the full-attack action and are compatible.

Manyshot and Rapid Shot are just fine together.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Focused Shot and Pinpoint Targeting are not modifying the attack action - they are Standard Actions in their own right. As such, Vital Strike will not stack with them, and they will not stack with each other.

Generally, though, yes, if multiple feats modify the attack (or full-attack) action, then they may be used in conjunction - for example, it's possible to use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together.


It's impossible to use both Focused Shot and Pinpoint Targeting on the same turn, because each costs a standard action to use. These feats don't modify a normal attack, they replace it (hence the wording "As a standard action...") This is also the reason you can't use either of these feats as part of a full-attack action.

Vital Strike won't work with either one, because it says "when you use the attack action" and neither Focused Shot nor Pinpoint Targeting is "the attack action", they are their own actions that require an attack roll.

edit: double ninja'ed!

Shadow Lodge

Grick wrote:
Flashblade wrote:
If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the standard attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single standard attack?

Probably, assuming they both actually modify the attack action and are compatible.

Flashblade wrote:
Benefit: As a standard action...

Focused Shot and Pinpoint Targeting are both specific standard actions, they do not use the attack action. They are incompatible with each other, as well as with Vital Strike.

Flashblade wrote:
If a character has multiple feats which can alter the behavior of the full attack action, then can that character apply all of them to a single full attack?

Probably, assuming they both actually modify the full-attack action and are compatible.

Manyshot and Rapid Shot are just fine together.

Ahhh ok....let me make sure I understand this correctly because I've been looking at this wrong. So both Focused Shot and Pinpoint Targeting are actually standard actions but their results are similar to an attack action, i.e. they hit and damage the enemy. Since you can't do two standard actions in a turn you can't do them both. Since an attack action is a different type of standard action and you can't do two standard actions in a turn then you can't combine them with Vital Strike either. Do I have that right now?

Grand Lodge

First off, Vital Strike has been errata'd as a standard action.

Now, if a feat denotes it's use as "as a standard action", or "as a full round action", then it cannot be combined with any feat with the same wording.

If the feat denotes it use as "as part of a standard action" or "as part of a full attack"(or similar wording), then it can be combined with other feats.

The important part is looking for the "as part of" wording in the feat.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
First off, Vital Strike has been errata'd as a standard action.

Citation? The FAQ from a few weeks ago still says it uses the attack action. It just clarifies (again, in an even more official capacity) that the attack action itself is a specific standard action.

Grand Lodge

Grick wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
First off, Vital Strike has been errata'd as a standard action.

Citation? The FAQ from a few weeks ago still says it uses the attack action. It just clarifies (again, in an even more official capacity) that the attack action itself is a specific standard action.

This particular debate should probably discussed on a separate thread.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
This particular debate should probably discussed on a separate thread.

Shouldn't be a debate, just a link to the CRB errata which contains the change you mentioned.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

First off, Vital Strike has been errata'd as a standard action.

Now, if a feat denotes it's use as "as a standard action", or "as a full round action", then it cannot be combined with any feat with the same wording.

If the feat denotes it use as "as part of a standard action" or "as part of a full attack"(or similar wording), then it can be combined with other feats.

The important part is looking for the "as part of" wording in the feat.

That's the key right there. That's why Manyshot and Rapid Shot work together. They both start with "When making a full-attack action", so they're both part of that action, not replacing it.

Grand Lodge

Grick wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
This particular debate should probably discussed on a separate thread.

Shouldn't be a debate, just a link to the CRB errata which contains the change you mentioned.

I just figured it would safer to remove the possibility of a debate.

More of a cautionary statement for all that would start one.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I just figured it would safer to remove the possibility of a debate.

So you want someone to make a thread about how Vital Strike was changed in errata to be a standard action before you'll post a link to the errata? That doesn't make any sense.

The Core Rulebook page has links to the errata. The only mention of Vital Strike in First Printing to Fifth Printing (v1.3) is the re-wording of how the damage dice work, which is reflected in the Vital Strike entry in the PRD.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the FAQ which changed Sunder to no longer use the attack action?

Grand Lodge

I may be confused, as I am so used to having any conversation involving the Vital Strike feat ending in a heated debate, that I simply expect it every time.

By the way, the use of the term "attack action" has fallen out of use in newer books.

This pleases me.

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