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Every fantasy setting is going to ape the real world to some degree, and that includes technology and aesthetics. I respect that some people are put off by some of the real-world paralels in the Golarion setting, but I don't think including longships and pyramids is any more "lazy" than including, say, cruciform longswords and steel plate armor. Those are distinctively European artifacts from a fairly narrow historical period; in fact, in Earth's history, more civilizations built pyramids than forged full plate.
Now, you could make up architecture and weaponry and the like from scratch, and sometimes it can even result in something cool. D&D has done that a lot, actually; no one in the real world ever went into battle using studded leather, spiked chains, or two-bladed swords. In fact, those items don't even really make any sense from a practical standpoint.
Now, I would rather see a setting that uses real-world technology, even stuff as recognizable as guillotines and Roman stadiums, than one that relies entirely on made-up bizzaro tech. I am, personally, not a fan of starknives and orc double-axes and the like, but again, it's a matter of taste. It is, however, *not* a matter of laziness.
(they have whole nations living on the sun...how is that not fantastic enough?)Wait what
Tell me more
The Distant Worlds Campaign setting. It mentions that there are whole nations living on the sun, mostly fire based creatures (for obvious reasons) but it is possible`for characters to go there with enough magic.
The Distant Worlds Campaign setting. It mentions that there are whole nations living on the sun, mostly fire based creatures (for obvious reasons) but it is possible`for characters to go there with enough magic.(they have whole nations living on the sun...how is that not fantastic enough?)Wait what
Tell me more
I really need to read that book. It was generously recently gifted to me but I haven't had time to DL it and look through yet.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd also point out that to take Galt and paint it under the broad brush of lazy is a disservice. Almost akin to calling the Paizo staff 'pasty white guys'
Let's consider Taldor for example. I see it as being akin to the Byzantine empire, towards the end of its life. Others see English, or French influences in it. It is similar to, but not quite like, all these things.
Likewise, Andoran is sometimes broad brushed as “Happy fun land.” If you’ve read the actual book, you’d see that it is in the process of evolving a merchant class, company towns, fixed elections, etc. Lots of diversity, but hey look! Galt has guillotines!
And who can forget the real world parallels to Irrisen. Why I remember when Baba Yaga came to earth and put in another ‘granddaughter’ Oh wait… there is no parallel to Irrisen.
Why I was just reading the other day about Marco Polo travelling over the icecap to get to China. Oh wait, that isn’t real either.
From Wikipedia on longboats “The longship is characterized as a graceful, long, narrow, light, wooden boat with a shallow-draft hull designed for speed. The ship's shallow draft allowed navigation in waters only one metre deep and permitted beach landings, while its light weight enabled it to be carried over portages. Longships were also double-ended, the symmetrical bow and stern allowing the ship to reverse direction quickly without having to turn around; this trait proved particularly useful in northern latitudes where icebergs and sea ice posed hazards to navigation.” Shorter answer. Why do the Ulfen use the same longboats? [i]Because they’re in the same type of terrain! Lazy would be “Let’s give the people who live in the land of ice and snow full keel deep hull boats. They won’t work, but wow, at least we won’t be accused of C&P Vikings!”
It would be as silly as making massive structures out of wood in Osiron.
I think it's a matter of combination. Yes, longships are built to float on shallow waterways as well as to be seaworthy. But if said longships have stylized dragon heads on their prows, and the warriors manning them wear helmets that look exactly like the helmets worn by the viking warriors of Earth, then it's a step too far.
It's the same with quasi-Egypt: you call the kings pharaohs, let them built pyramids as burial places, grasp every opportunity to insert ancient Egyptian imagery in the artwork; okay, fair enough. But don't be surprised if people complain about that.
The examples mentioned are neutral if used on their own. Used in the same context as in the real world they become problematic.
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I can understand wanting some more fantastic nations, but you have to remember that A) people have different tastes and Golarion has to match with all tastes and B) there are fantastic nations and cities in Golarion that are pretty incredible but, for some reason, the OP keeps glossing over. Some people (like myself) love the analogues to real-world cultures. I do like the fantastic as long as it is well done and not lazy.
My main issue is that the OP made this a race issue when it didn't have to be. Despite what Oops believes, creativity isn't hindered by race or gender, and the fact that he said that and then has completely sidestepped around what he said only makes his point worse.
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I normally wouldn't come close enough to touch a discussion with this one's title with the proverbial ten-foot pole, but since the original poster has clarified that he or she actually wasn't talking about racial stereotyping at all, but was instead expressing (at the least clumsily and perhaps even in an inflammatory manner) a simple taste preference about certain world-building choices made by the designers of Golarion, I've decided that I have this to say.
Golarion is not a story. It is a setting, and a set of contexts. It wasn't built to accurately reflect a fully rounded and rationalized fictive world. It was built, instead, for us.
The generic features (by which I mean, features of or related to genres, such as the fantastic and historical genres) are props, supports, and idea-generators for gamers, designers, and other storytellers interested in a loosely collaborative effort toward telling inter-related stories as games, gaming products, and fiction. Potentially hundreds of thousands of people might be involved in this effort, since gaming worlds, unlike the worlds created by the writers of most novels, are specifically designed to invite and include participation by audience members.
Since so many different storytellers are telling so many different stories using the same canvas (to hopefully not mix a metaphor too badly), then it is better design when the canvas utilizes features that can be widely understood, appreciated, adopted, and perhaps adapted by the largest possible number of storytellers.
In a way, this thread has turned into a version of a discussion that genre writers have been having for decades about originality versus creativity. Many creative people have come to acknowledge that the two are not at all the same thing. And many people who read (and watch, and yes, play) fantasy texts have answered quite loudly with their wallets when asked their preferences about originality.
To take two examples, neither Star Wars nor the novels of Robert Jordan are particularly original. But they are wildly successful, both in terms of popularity and, to my understanding, in meeting the artistic needs of their creators and the demands of their audiences.
Notice that I haven't said a word about quality, which is another issue altogether. Sometimes, of course, originality appears in high-quality products. But sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes, highly original concepts are very poorly executed. In RPGs, we all know the stories of Planescape and Dark Sun. We all know how popular they proved in comparison to the Forgotten Realms in terms of the number of people who purchased the associated products. I rush to say that I think very high quality work was/is done in all three settings.
And I also rush to say that originality and creativity, as others have intimated upthread, of course exist in Golarion, and that I think it's an extraordinarily high-quality product as well. But at a fundamental level, it needs to be accessible by and usable for a very large number of people who aren't me.
And sometimes that means using analogues.
And that's okay.
@Christoper Rower.
I understand what you are saying. Golarion is a "kitchen sink setting". It sure has a lot of very well crafted regions. It's just that some of the others irk me to no end.
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Gonna make a whole nation based on Eskimos that dwell in the jungle and live in flying lava towns. Because swords and bows are 'so yesterday' nd cliche they don't exist in my new world. Instead, their whole army uses dental floss as makeshift garottes to fight their enemies who are, and wait for the genius of this bit, I took a DOG and a FISH and made the new race called teh Fido which is a hybrid of the two and thats who they are fighting. I haven't had time to work out WHY they are fighting, but it will be in the 54th supplement or something.
This is going to be so maxxtreme hardcore creative.
Can I have my Paizo contract?
Wheres my Ennie?
I think this is so creative and amazing I should just flat out win Superstar right here and now.
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Gonna make a whole nation based on Eskimos that dwell in the jungle and live in flying lava towns. Because swords and bows are 'so yesterday' nd cliche they don't exist in my new world. Instead, their whole army uses dental floss as makeshift garottes to fight their enemies who are, and wait for the genius of this bit, I took a DOG and a FISH and made the new race called teh Fido which is a hybrid of the two and thats who they are fighting. I haven't had time to work out WHY they are fighting, but it will be in the 54th supplement or something.
This is going to be so maxxtreme hardcore creative.
Can I have my Paizo contract?
Wheres my Ennie?
I think this is so creative and amazing I should just flat out win Superstar right here and now.
HA! I laugh at the mighty fishdog as i pull out a wooden stick smeared with fish bait made with a deadly poison and toss it across the way forcing the dog part of the creature to fetch the stick and the fish part to nibble at the fish bait thereby killing itself ;)
Lol, sorry, i just couldn't resist.
I laugh at the mighty fishdog as i pull out a wooden stick smeared with fish bait made with a deadly poison and toss it across the way forcing the dog part of the creature to fetch the stick and the fish part to nibble at the fish bait thereby killing itself ;)
Now, now! That would be enforcing stereotypical behaviour in dogs and fish!
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I laugh at the mighty fishdog as i pull out a wooden stick smeared with fish bait made with a deadly poison and toss it across the way forcing the dog part of the creature to fetch the stick and the fish part to nibble at the fish bait thereby killing itself ;)Now, now! That would be enforcing stereotypical behaviour in dogs and fish!
Lol, thank you sir, i stand corrected.
Yeah!
To be original and creative, I am blowing yer mind by making the Fido LOVE CATS as well! How good is that, because normally dogs and fish wouldn't like cats, but because of my outstanding creative mind and hybridi...combimax skillz, I am totes changing them; my creative chops are teh deadly.
My dental floss wielding Eskimo dudes should be the stand-out for any campaign though.
I'm off to get a fake tan now, to help my creativity even more.
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Swords and bows are too much of a rip off of boring reality, lazy and all. they should have invented an entire armory of new weapons and armor that showed some creativity.
True, true! This is the logic that led to the dire flail, the gnomish battle ladder, that 'sharp thing at the end of my ponytail that I can whip around and cut you with' and that spiked beard thing. :)
I think I'll settle for my ripoff unoriginal kukri and khopeshes and glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaives...
Seriously, 'though, I like quasi-Egypts and quasi-Persias, as long as they're interesting and not abandoned afterthoughts. And there've been few enough explorations of faux Indias or faux Africas that any real development of such feels every bit as 'exotic' as 'totally made up country #4382.'
Al-Qadim was crazy good, as was Kara-Tur. Hamunaptra and Nyambe were great as well. From Paizo, I really like how they fleshed out the Dragon Empires.
If Osirion and Qadira ever get more than a 32 page flyover treatment, I expect they'll be great, too.
Same thing with Andoran, its obviously based on the American Revolution, all the way down to the waving flags, funny outfits, and cultural ideals. Does it work? Yeah, but its boring.
Actually, I always see it as the "French Revolution gone right" country, with the American Revolution mixed in. It's fascinating location between Cheliax and Byzanti... err, Taldor also keeps it interesting.
Maybe it's just me, but then again if you look at the introductory artwork of the Inner Sea World Guide for Andoran and then this piece of art, the similarities are kinda obvious, ain't they?
It tends to bother me that Egyptian analogues with deserts, mummies, pyramids, and pharaohs raise so much ire but Western Medieval Europe Analogue #12145164164352 with serfs, castles, knights, and so on doesn't.
>:(
Maybe it's that they are essentially different settings thrown together in one world? If I want to play in ancient Egypt, I'll use the old Hamunaptra setting.
Another possibility is that there are several Western Europe analogues in Golarion, but did different things with them, but only one Egypt analogue, which is almost the same thing that existed in the real world? Take Eberron for example: You got various themes taken over from the real world (among them mummies and pyramids), but they are mixed in with the cultures, many of which are really strange. The only recognizable real world analogue on Eberron is Sarlona, which strongly resembles modern day China, but without most of the stereotypical Asian trappings.
Or maybe it is a matter of themes. Swords, bows, serfs, castles, knights, and what have you not only existed in medieval Western Europe, but also in Japan, for example. These things are generic. You can come up with a Maya/Aztec setting using them. However, "Ancient Egypt" is a theme. "Medieval Asia" is a theme. The "American/French Revolution" is a theme. "Vikings" is a theme (which works wonderfully in Open Design's Midgard setting, but then again, you have to consider the setting's title).
The main cultural influence of medieval Europe, a strong centralized monotheistic church with considerable political power, is notably absent from Avistan. Sure, there is Cheliax, and by extension Isger, but diabolists don't work well as quasi-christians. So there is no common theme to be found in your alleged "Western Medieval Europe Analogue".
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd also point out that a simple approach of 'familiar, with a major difference' is common in historical fiction.
An Oblique Approach
Guns of the South
1632
Just to name 3. Hamanuaptra is actually a good example of this. Sure at first blush it's 'Ancient Egypt redux' but the introduction of races, gods, and magic change the culture (Or maybe the OP has some text I missed about gnomes of Egypt).
Likewise, when I 'tweak' Osiron, the nobility are aasimars. The RL Pharaohs was considered the 'tenth god' so much that the 10th plauge is often considered aimed at Ramses. So it makes sense that the royal bloodlines would be full of aasimar, half celestials and fake aasimar. Heck we had a crossdressing regent as a pharaoh, so why wouldn't a truly descended from the gods bloodline have a fake aasimar doing bodypaint prestidigitation to do the anuk-su-namun look?
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It's a kitchen-sink world, and it's meant to be. For every person who doesn't like analogues for this or that real-world culture or location there are fifty other people looking at the world map, going, "where the &%$# are the Vikings? Where can I play Blackbeard?"
If Paizo is standing by, saying, " here's where you can play Blackbeard", and "rob the Pharaoh's tomb right over here" then they get that person's business, and hopefully the business of their gaming group. Then Paizo can use that familiar backdrop to layer in cool and innovative story, etc. It's an approach that obviously works.
There is certainly nothing wrong with a different approach, but it isn't going to draw as much business.
It's a kitchen-sink world, and it's meant to be. For every person who doesn't like analogues for this or that real-world culture or location there are fifty other people looking at the world map, going, "where the &%$# are the Vikings? Where can I play Blackbeard?"
If Paizo is standing by, saying, " here's where you can play Blackbeard", and "rob the Pharaoh's tomb right over here" then they get that person's business, and hopefully the business of their gaming group. Then Paizo can use that familiar backdrop to layer in cool and innovative story, etc. It's an approach that obviously works.
There is certainly nothing wrong with a different approach, but it isn't going to draw as much business.
Again, I know that. I just think that with a bit of effort they could have made the "offending" parts both recognizable as well as less boring/jarring. See Eberron.
It would have made my work as a GM much more easier, as I have to alter those parts to be able to stomach them.
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Likewise, when I 'tweak' Osiron, the nobility are aasimars. The RL Pharaohs was considered the 'tenth god' so much that the 10th plauge is often considered aimed at Ramses. So it makes sense that the royal bloodlines would be full of aasimar, half celestials and fake aasimar. Heck we had a crossdressing regent as a pharaoh, so why wouldn't a truly descended from the gods bloodline have a fake aasimar doing bodypaint prestidigitation to do the anuk-su-namun look?
Huh... I've never heard that the 10 plagues of Egypt were meant to attack specific Egyption gods. I figured people just liked tens (easy to count on your fingers) and came up with 10 awful-but-familiar things that could happen in an agrarian society (the water gets tainted, the cattle get sick and die, locusts eat the crops, et cetera).
For me, pharaonic egyptian culture surviving into renaissance times is enough of a "tweak" in itself. I particularly like how the pseudo-Persians/pseudo-Arabs *did* come in and take over, but the result was more of a fusion of cultures, rather than one being so completely overwhelmed by the other. So you've still got a pharaoah, but he makes no claims to divinity himself, instead being a powerful cleric... and a cleric of an adopted foreign god, at that!
Edit: Also, if you want egyptian-style countries with more fantastical twists, both Nex and Geb were, I believe, Osiriani in life, and that whole region was, at one time, colonized by Osirion. In fact, Egyptian-style temples and tombs and the like seem to dot the deserts from Rahadoum to the Field of Maidens.
It tends to bother me that Egyptian analogues with deserts, mummies, pyramids, and pharaohs raise so much ire but Western Medieval Europe Analogue #12145164164352 with serfs, castles, knights, and so on doesn't.
>:(
Maybe it's that they are essentially different settings thrown together in one world? If I want to play in ancient Egypt, I'll use the old Hamunaptra setting.
Another possibility is that there are several Western Europe analogues in Golarion, but did different things with them, but only one Egypt analogue, which is almost the same thing that existed in the real world? Take Eberron for example: You got various themes taken over from the real world (among them mummies and pyramids), but they are mixed in with the cultures, many of which are really strange. The only recognizable real world analogue on Eberron is Sarlona, which strongly resembles modern day China, but without most of the stereotypical Asian trappings.
Or maybe it is a matter of themes. Swords, bows, serfs, castles, knights, and what have you not only existed in medieval Western Europe, but also in Japan, for example. These things are generic. You can come up with a Maya/Aztec setting using them. However, "Ancient Egypt" is a theme. "Medieval Asia" is a theme. The "American/French Revolution" is a theme. "Vikings" is a theme (which works wonderfully in Open Design's Midgard setting, but then again, you have to consider the setting's title).
The main cultural influence of medieval Europe, a strong centralized monotheistic church with considerable political power, is notably absent from Avistan. Sure, there is Cheliax, and by extension Isger, but diabolists don't work well as quasi-christians. So there is no common theme to be found in your alleged "Western Medieval Europe Analogue".
Fabius It is interesting that you take the name of the Delayer for your forum handle.
Egypt was neither a monolithic or stagnant it changed and evolved with each successive invasion (Hyksos, Hittites, Sea Peaoples, Assyrians, Lybians, Persians, Greeks, Roman/Byzantine, Arabs, Turks, French, British) Golarions ancient Osiron is similar, they have recently thrown off the Paizo analog for the Caliphate. There being no equivalent of the Turks in Golarion to crush its independence has allowed Osiron to go through a nationalistic revival and re-establish its cultural identity.
The trappings maybe ancient but the magic/tech is about renaissance. With all the history of ancient Osiron behind it. This makes for a rich layered world far more complex than just a ripoff of a historical setting.
The great thing about magic though as a GM I can have portals to, or magically hidden lands that were once part of ancient if I want my players to experience it.
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Interesting observation, but on Golarion, races that are "white" are actually comparitivly rare, as the most common skin color would be a sort of tannish color (Varisians, Kellids, Taldans, Keleshites, Garundi), and only two sorts of humans are actually white (Chelish and Ulfen). Just thought that's interesting.
Interesting observation, but on Golarion, races that are "white" are actually comparitivly rare, as the most common skin color would be a sort of tannish color (Varisians, Kellids, Taldans, Keleshites, Garundi), and only two sorts of humans are actually white (Chelish and Ulfen). Just thought that's interesting.
Considering that, technically, the Chelaxians can be considered an offshoot of Ulfen, that is not particularly surprising.
Fabius It is interesting that you take the name of the Delayer for your forum handle.
Veni, vidi, cunctabar.
Egypt was neither a monolithic or stagnant it changed and evolved with...
IIRC, Osirion only was the target of one invasion. But its history or complexitiy doesn't change the fact that its theme is copied of the stereotypical notion of ancient Egypt, like presented in the remake of The Mummy, for example.
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Swords and bows are too much of a rip off of boring reality, lazy and all. they should have invented an entire armory of new weapons and armor that showed some creativity.True, true! This is the logic that led to the dire flail, the gnomish battle ladder, that 'sharp thing at the end of my ponytail that I can whip around and cut you with' and that spiked beard thing. :)
I think I'll settle for my ripoff unoriginal kukri and khopeshes and glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaives...
Seriously, 'though, I like quasi-Egypts and quasi-Persias, as long as they're interesting and not abandoned afterthoughts. And there've been few enough explorations of faux Indias or faux Africas that any real development of such feels every bit as 'exotic' as 'totally made up country #4382.'
Al-Qadim was crazy good, as was Kara-Tur. Hamunaptra and Nyambe were great as well. From Paizo, I really like how they fleshed out the Dragon Empires.
If Osirion and Qadira ever get more than a 32 page flyover treatment, I expect they'll be great, too.
Much like the race/region thing, some "boring" but relatable, some wacky and new
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Weren't the Shory Garundi? That would have made them black/brown (insert whatever PC descriptor makes you happy - I can't keep up with these things). They were pretty damned advanced.
People tend to overlook it when designers do make things racially mixed. Take Turmish in the Forgotten Realms (the nation just south of Cormyr - the MAIN country in the setting). Turmish people are dark-skinned, and are of the Turami racial group, of which there are many examples of spread throughout the Reams. The cover of Complete Arcane had a picture of Turmish Mage (which you can see HERE in ALL its glory).
And yet, when detractors want to stir something up, they point right to Chult (which also had very advanced group of 'black' natives pre-Spellplague). The stuff is in there, in most good, published settings - you just have to know where to look for it. If it is over-emphasized (like creating an entirely black setting with primitive white aborigines) wouldn't that be just as condescending? I take more issue with folks trying to constantly point out the differences between races; what good could come of that? It shouldn't be a focal point, unless there is a major in-setting reason for it.
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Fabius It is interesting that you take the name of the Delayer for your forum handle.
Veni, vidi, cunctabar.
You do know the name roughly translates as Quintus (the fifth) Fabius (of the family Fabii) Maximus (Greatest) Verrucosus (Warty) Cunctator (Delayer, procrastinator, slower down). :-)
IIRC, Osirion only was the target of one invasion. But its history or complexitiy doesn't change the fact that its theme is copied of the stereotypical notion of ancient Egypt, like presented in the remake of The Mummy, for example.
Egypt was neither a monolithic or stagnant it changed and evolved with...
Two things:
1. You need the mundane for the wondrous to stand out.
2. Paizo has neither the time or resources to write something as massive as a totally unique fantasy world.
No writer has ever managed to do it. Not Tolkien, Martin, Le Guin, or even China Miéville.
All of them reference the real world, everything they write is an analogue some are just better at hiding it than others and in Miéville's case is only capable of doing so because he is standing on the shoulders of giants even though he rubishes them.
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It's a kitchen-sink world, and it's meant to be. For every person who doesn't like analogues for this or that real-world culture or location there are fifty other people looking at the world map, going, "where the &%$# are the Vikings? Where can I play Blackbeard?"
If Paizo is standing by, saying, " here's where you can play Blackbeard", and "rob the Pharaoh's tomb right over here" then they get that person's business, and hopefully the business of their gaming group. Then Paizo can use that familiar backdrop to layer in cool and innovative story, etc. It's an approach that obviously works.
There is certainly nothing wrong with a different approach, but it isn't going to draw as much business.
Again, I know that. I just think that with a bit of effort they could have made the "offending" parts both recognizable as well as less boring/jarring. See Eberron.
It would have made my work as a GM much more easier, as I have to alter those parts to be able to stomach them.
I know a BUNCH of gamers who HATE Eberon.
Have you ever encountered a campaign setting called Tek'umel, the Empire of the Petal Throne? It's old, like Blackmoor and Greyhawk old, arguably a little bit older as it was the setting for stories in the 1960s. It's one of the truly original campaign settings. It was created by an anthropologist named M.A.R. Barker who taught at some college during the early years of RPGs.
No?
It's not surprising. I've only met 3 gamers in 30 years of gaming who were even aware of it. AND it was published by TSR, at least I think it was.
It was huge and awesome and unique and wholly foreign in a lot of ways. It was also not popular enough to keep in print. You might find it on eBay. But it's a longshot.
There have been others, over the years. Dark Sun is pretty different. Spelljammer too, but for wildly different reasons. Planescape took root, but it's not even close to the "copy/paste" settings.
There was a setting from the 80's called Sky Realms of Joreune, actually a discreet game. Totally alien setting, absolutely awesome in every way. The art work looked like something from a Dutch Master. Way way ahead of it's time.
Yep that one dissappeared too.
Totally original settings are the province of DMs, as home-brews. The simple truth of this sort of thing is that to make something totally original also accessible requires a spectacular story teller sitting at the table to make everyone "get it".
Not all DMs are created equal; and the default settings have to account for that.
Just found that.
That's kinda cool.
And awful. My game money is already stretched awful thin.
Oh and FREAKIN Minis.
This is terrible news.
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I know a BUNCH of gamers who HATE Eberon.
I couldn't agree more!
Have you ever encountered a campaign setting called Tek'umel, the Empire of the Petal Throne? It's old, like Blackmoor and Greyhawk old, arguably a little bit older as it was the setting for stories in the 1960s. It's one of the truly original campaign settings. It was created by an anthropologist named M.A.R. Barker who taught at some college during the early years of RPGs.
Yes, and the amazing Mr Dee who did the artwork has just completed a Kickstarter for t6he restoration of some of its early artworks.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/revisiting-my-legions-of-the-pe tal-throne-artSee also
http://bethorm.com/
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I remember Petal Throne.
Does that mean I get a write-up if Paizo does a 'Dinosaurs' splat?
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Totally original settings are the province of DMs, as home-brews. The simple truth of this sort of thing is that to make something totally original also accessible requires a spectacular story teller sitting at the table to make everyone "get it".
Not all DMs are created equal; and the default settings have to account for that.
To be fair, a spectacular story teller can make any setting interesting, and would probably rather make up his own than use a published one anyway. In my mind, a setting that's hard for people to "get" without having a genius there to explain it to them is a pretty flawed setting.
Another important point is that "original" isn't the same thing as "good" or "fun." Spelljammer was (arguably) very original, you're right, but it didn't fail to attract fans because of a dearth of good DMs, it failed to attract fans because it was goofy and not all that well developed. Likewise, while I personally am a big fan of the Planescape setting, I know a lot of people who can't stand it because of the fakey made-up slang, the White Wolf-style character factions, and the general tendency for things in the setting to the quirky for the sake of quirkiness. I can respect that opinion, and I don't consider them to be lesser DMs because they don't "get" the uniqueness of the setting.
I know a BUNCH of gamers who HATE Eberon.Again, I know that. I just think that with a bit of effort they could have made the "offending" parts both recognizable as well as less boring/jarring. See Eberron.
It would have made my work as a GM much more easier, as I have to alter those parts to be able to stomach them.
*raises hand*
The parts I like about Eberron are the things that can be taken out of the setting and used elsewhere. The races, some of the monsters, some of the magic, some of the classes. The setting itself? The cities, the regions, the factions, the history, the universe, the mythologies? Don't care for them.
Two questions:
What would be the problem in taking out everything that is typical Egyptian in Osirion (to pick one example), including the name, and replacing it with something else?
Why did you hat Eberron (if that's too off-topic, I apologize).
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I can answer the first, as I love Eberron.
I love the flavor of Pre-columbian America. I love the flavor of the Aztec flower wars and the Incan architecture, and Mayan astronomy. I love their mythology and folklore and pyramids and wildlife. It is so interesting and engaging that if there was a fantasy setting that incorporated elements of all of that, I would play it. You can expand upon it as well, adding things here and there that make the setting more fantastical while meshing well with the Mesoamerican flavor. If, however, I got an RPG setting that took out all of that in favor of something else, I'd feel a little cheated and would probably not buy more from that setting. The flavor of that area are what I love and if you threw the Aztec in the arctic, or made the Mayans have samurai, it'd take away from that flavor more than add to it.
An example of something that did it right was Avatar: the Last Airbender. The northern tribe of the Water Nation was based on the Eskimos. However, they had built a massive city of ice, with channels running through the city for boats. I thought it was well done. It took the flavor of Inuit as well as the magic of the show's people, and expanded upon it. If instead, they kept the Inuit influence but just threw them in the desert and gave them pyramids, or threw them in a rainforest and gave them treehouses, I feel that just wouldn't have been as good. Would have come across as haphazard and a real waste of what was once great flavor.
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I'm not in the hate Eberon crowd. There is some cool stuff there. But I like steam punk, I liked Gamma World and Star Frontiers heck I even liked Boot Hill back in the day and I'm pretty sure I'm in a very tiny club there.
But I also like ancient Egypt. Now I get what you're saying, why is it so derivative? I think it comes from the simple truth that nothing in our historical framework comes close to ancient Egypt. Ancient China, Mesopotamia and India, even the Pre-Colombian cultures fail to have what Egypt has. Endurance? I'm not sure what it is. Egypt is old, older than most others that we're adequately familiar with. The art, fashion and architecture is extremely distinct. Their theology and it's development is known and understood. Because of the Bible, Egypt is Historical and yet Fantasticly alive for most people. The other cultures have never captured that kind imagination to such a broad degree.
All of this makes it hard to use Egypt piecemeal. If you borrow some stuff from Egypt, it just feels like Egypt. That's the issue I think. Other settings had their Desert Pyramid areas, but few made those areas culturally significant. Our Egypt, was the point around which the ancient world developed. Even today, Egypt is important, it's in the news nightly. The world still watches it, visits it, dreams of it, and sets stories in it.
I somewhat agree with you that Paizo went a little too Egypt with their Egypt, but given the slack treatment that other Settings have provided it's a welcome change.
It's also worth noting that Osirion is NOT Egypt. There are some spectacular differences. Yeah there's Pharohs and Pyramids and mummies. But the Royal Palace is in an enormous locust shell, the Pharoh is served by Genies and the desert beneath is a not a treasure trove of burial vaults but a labyrinth of horrors that guard some terrible things like a City of Ghouls.
The issue with Ossirion is the issue with Maztica. The culture it is based on is so non-generic that it's hard to do an "Egypt Lite" version while still not half assing it.
I can answer the first, as I love Eberron.
I love the flavor of Pre-columbian America. I love the flavor of the Aztec flower wars and the Incan architecture, and Mayan astronomy. I love their mythology and folklore and pyramids and wildlife. It is so interesting and engaging that if there was a fantasy setting that incorporated elements of all of that, I would play it. You can expand upon it as well, adding things here and there that make the setting more fantastical while meshing well with the Mesoamerican flavor. If, however, I got an RPG setting that took out all of that in favor of something else, I'd feel a little cheated and would probably not buy more from that setting. The flavor of that area are what I love and if you threw the Aztec in the arctic, or made the Mayans have samurai, it'd take away from that flavor more than add to it.
An example of something that did it right was Avatar: the Last Airbender. The northern tribe of the Water Nation was based on the Eskimos. However, they had built a massive city of ice, with channels running through the city for boats. I thought it was well done. It took the flavor of Inuit as well as the magic of the show's people, and expanded upon it. If instead, they kept the Inuit influence but just threw them in the desert and gave them pyramids, or threw them in a rainforest and gave them treehouses, I feel that just wouldn't have been as good. Would have come across as haphazard and a real waste of what was once great flavor.
See, I never said you should just take the cultures and put them in a different climate (or something like that). That would indeed be a terrible idea. I am more in favor of the Last Airbender treatment. Take something, change or expand on the theme, but be mindful of why you actually wanted to include it. In the case of Osirion, I assume it was "find and explore ancient burial sites". You don't need pyramids or all the Egyptian trappings to do that, though.
See, I never said you should just take the cultures and put them in a different climate (or something like that). That would indeed be a terrible idea. I am more in favor of the Last Airbender treatment. Take something, change or expand on the theme, but be mindful of why you actually wanted to include it. In the case of Osirion, I assume it was "find and explore ancient burial sites". You don't need pyramids or all the Egyptian trappings to do that, though.I can answer the first, as I love Eberron.
I love the flavor of Pre-columbian America. I love the flavor of the Aztec flower wars and the Incan architecture, and Mayan astronomy. I love their mythology and folklore and pyramids and wildlife. It is so interesting and engaging that if there was a fantasy setting that incorporated elements of all of that, I would play it. You can expand upon it as well, adding things here and there that make the setting more fantastical while meshing well with the Mesoamerican flavor. If, however, I got an RPG setting that took out all of that in favor of something else, I'd feel a little cheated and would probably not buy more from that setting. The flavor of that area are what I love and if you threw the Aztec in the arctic, or made the Mayans have samurai, it'd take away from that flavor more than add to it.
An example of something that did it right was Avatar: the Last Airbender. The northern tribe of the Water Nation was based on the Eskimos. However, they had built a massive city of ice, with channels running through the city for boats. I thought it was well done. It took the flavor of Inuit as well as the magic of the show's people, and expanded upon it. If instead, they kept the Inuit influence but just threw them in the desert and gave them pyramids, or threw them in a rainforest and gave them treehouses, I feel that just wouldn't have been as good. Would have come across as haphazard and a real waste of what was once great flavor.
If it was just about burial sites, you'll find that a lot of the nations and settings can easily have that, even in Golarion. But that is such a general theme that you can't have an entire nation based on that alone. That's why Osirion is so much more than just looting burial tombs. It leaves it open to more adventures than just pyramid looting, such as the Lovecraftian elements, ancient aliens, mystery cults, and the nationalist politics. And, like how I like Mesoamerican culture, they chose Egypt because people love the culture and folklore.
And admittedly, Egypt in pulp settings largely has elements of grave robbing and its consequences in it.
Tekumel (website)...
The most recent edition came out in 2005, actually.
I tried looking at some sites and I can't figure out where to buy the newest edition.
It went out of print not long ago. Try here. The Tri-stat 2005 rules go for about 40.00.I tried looking at some sites and I can't figure out where to buy the newest edition.Tekumel (website)...
The most recent edition came out in 2005, actually.
I saw that but I didn't see a 'buy' button. Sent the guy an email though, assuming he's still around.
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I actually asked why Seoni had white hair, and the Art Director replied to me and told me that Seoni is actually a blond.
In some of the art she is. In most of it, she's as white as her bosom buddy elf and fellow arcane caster are.
Meh.
==Aelryinth
She is using prestidigitation to color her hair. It make her more glamorous. ;-)
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I think it's a matter of combination. Yes, longships are built to float on shallow waterways as well as to be seaworthy. But if said longships have stylized dragon heads on their prows, and the warriors manning them wear helmets that look exactly like the helmets worn by the viking warriors of Earth, then it's a step too far.
It's the same with quasi-Egypt: you call the kings pharaohs, let them built pyramids as burial places, grasp every opportunity to insert ancient Egyptian imagery in the artwork; okay, fair enough. But don't be surprised if people complain about that.
The examples mentioned are neutral if used on their own. Used in the same context as in the real world they become problematic.
Artist are already one of the highest cost for Paizo products. Do you think that giving them unclear references for their work, asking them to read the material before producing an image, would make them less costly or more costly?
James Jacobs said several times that he had do accept a image that wasn't exactly what he wanted or commissioned because the painter hadn't perfectly grasped the request.So if you ask for Ulfen riding lordships what do you think will get you the better image:
- they are similar to vikings with this and this change
or
- give them roman armor like the lorica segmentata, but arm them with a naginata and make them dark skinned?
As you would have to repeat that request every time someone were to make an image of a Ulfen the probability of getting images that are not usable become very high and so the expense of replacing them or be forced to use wrong images in the products.
So the need give clear instructions to the artists constraint the creativity of authors and the requests for images. You will see much more images that resemble Earth cultures than images depicting completely new cultures.
Paizo has great images of the iconics to show to the artist but still sometime they make them wrong. Giving easily identifiable descriptions is important for the images you get and that condition what the artist produce.
B) there are fantastic nations and cities in Golarion that are pretty incredible but, for some reason, the OP keeps glossing over.
Probably because, for the above mentioned reasons, they get less images in the books. If you skim some product you tend to remember more the images than the text.
Think about Numeria. There are a few images of creatures from that land but I don't recall a single image of the crashed spaceship. So it stick less to memory if you aren't particularly interested to that part of the setting.And this not a jab to the OP, no one has the time to read carefully all the material.