Succubus in a grapple.


Rules Questions

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Kristal Moonhand wrote:
What if a telekineticist used Telekinetic Maneuvers to grapple her with her brain? Or a Tetori Monk was the one doing the grappling, and used their ability to count as not being grappled while grappling? Could the succubus still drain them?

A tetori does not have such an ability. They are still considered grappled. A white haired witch on the other hand...


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Technically The tetori could use their grab ability, which would keep them from gaining the grappled condition.


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So, my imperfect memory doesn’t recall: have we discussed black tentacles, yet?

#andsuddenlyanime


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willuwontu wrote:
Technically The tetori could use their grab ability, which would keep them from gaining the grappled condition.

Not really, that would be at a -20 and not viable.


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Tacticslion wrote:

So, my imperfect memory doesn’t recall: have we discussed black tentacles, yet?

#andsuddenlyanime

how could we not have? I am in this thread after all.


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Just searched the thread's history. There have been no fewer than 43 mentions of tentacles, including this current post.

I expect that number to grow shortly. :)


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Atalius wrote:
Not really, that would be at a -20 and not viable.

You could potentially have a high enough CMB that it is (not till way past CR appropriate though), but regardless, I was saying that it is a thing for them.

Now the real question is, does using Chokehold on a Succubus count as an act of passion?

Dark Archive

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willuwontu wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Not really, that would be at a -20 and not viable.

You could potentially have a high enough CMB that it is (not till way past CR appropriate though), but regardless, I was saying that it is a thing for them.

Now the real question is, does using Chokehold on a Succubus count as an act of passion?

I mean it never says what "exactly" you are using to grapple, just that not having free hands is a -4.


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willuwontu wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Not really, that would be at a -20 and not viable.

You could potentially have a high enough CMB that it is (not till way past CR appropriate though), but regardless, I was saying that it is a thing for them.

Now the real question is, does using Chokehold on a Succubus count as an act of passion?

The Green Ronin book Plot and Poison has a prestige class that makes it an act of passion. Barring that, if you have consent, I have made myself familiar with the suffocation/breath-holding rule section of the environmental hazards.


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(checks up on thread after long absence)

Holy heck....it's still going on.

Btw, has anyone every produced images for this?


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Chyrone wrote:

(checks up on thread after long absence)

Holy heck....it's still going on.

Btw, has anyone every produced images for this?

I would suspect yes.

They just haven't been posted here since they're likely NSFW.


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Dragoncat wrote:

I would suspect yes.

They just haven't been posted here since they're likely NSFW.

That's what phrased links or spoilers are for. :)


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This threads distant cousin was shut down, lets not get this one closed due to exuberance on our part.


I would direct any who are interested in such to a straight forward Google search.


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Tacticslion wrote:

So, my imperfect memory doesn’t recall: have we discussed black tentacles, yet?

#andsuddenlyanime

Dragoncat wrote:

Just searched the thread's history. There have been no fewer than 43 mentions of tentacles, including this current post.

I expect that number to grow shortly. :)

Greater black tentacles is a [good] spell and explicitly "reaches for" evil creatures, and is, of course, a druid spell (and they can detect evil, so hiding isn't on the table - as if that were a thing to a passionate succubus...).

So, obviously, step one: transfer regeneration as a series of potions to a charmed troll or whatever (succubus can handle this) onto the succubus; step two: bt[g]; step three: ANIMEEEEEEEE


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Again, I would direct any who need visuals to a Google search. I am certain it is out there, somewhere. Probably Deviant Art, if that's still a thing.


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Tacticslion wrote:

So, my imperfect memory doesn’t recall: have we discussed black tentacles, yet?

#andsuddenlyanime

Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well


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Well, a man of memes, at least!


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*throws lasso around CrimsonVixen to keep her in the thread again*


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Lathiira wrote:
*throws lasso around CrimsonVixen to keep her in the thread again*

I presume you have another research project you want to tie me up with?


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I can't believe I'm saying this, but let's keep things rated pg, folks...


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Freehold DM wrote:
I can't believe I'm saying this, but let's keep things rated pg, folks...

PG-13? And we've resolved a number of issues through this process (this is the Rules Questions forum...)

  • A succubus has to be in control of the grapple to initiate Energy Drain.
  • Acts of Passion are relative to the succubus, grapplee, players, and GM.
  • If a player snickers, giggles, blushes, or is otherwise visibly embarrassed or aroused, the character's action qualifies as an 'act of passion' for the purpose of Energy Drain.
  • A number of useful and creative magic items
  • A house-rule variation of the Energy Drain death-effect, where an individual slain by a Succubus' Energy Drain will be reborn in the Abyss as a new Succubus.

We still have a couple unresolved/controversial issues. If a Succubus is vulnerable to the Energy Drain of a fellow Succubus. Is the use of Energy Drain during an act of passion an automatic or conscious result. And if an asexual individual is immune to a Succubus' abilities.


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CrimsonVixen wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
*throws lasso around CrimsonVixen to keep her in the thread again*
I presume you have another research project you want to tie me up with?

Actually, just hadn't seen you post in ages and liked your company in this thread. But if you've got something we need to research, I don't have a project at the moment....


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But having said that, Crimson, what you said sounds good too!


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The big question I'm still confused on, is if Energy Drain is automatic/reflexive or conscious/at-will. I've always played it as a conscious decision on the part of the succubus. This has led to the entertaining situations of undercover succubi, including one who was an NPC within the party for almost three months before almost causing a TPK with a well placed betrayal.

I am aware that some succubi, including the famed Arueshalae lack the control they have, but they also are in the process of redemption and have an element of chastity with their attempt to 'go good'. A lot of the source material talk about how succubi plan and plot their moves, they wait for those right moments before bringing their targets down in a dramatic, soul breaking moment. It would be a lot harder to stay hidden like that if every kiss resulted in a lethal draining.

I'm in the process of cleaning my room and can't access my book, but how would the various levels of NPC Aristocrat fare against a stock Succubus? Obviously a first level is dead on a single kiss, but what about a 7th, 11th, or 17th level Aristocrat, what are the odds of them handling the will saves from those kisses and seduction skills?


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I do know that at least one Dev has said (unofficially) that it always occurs. I myself like the concept of the needs to be conscious camp. But, the thing is even in the succubus entry, it says it does, not that it may. Which is very strict wording of "Always." But yeah, I prefer the sometimes but the rules seem to suggest the always. Though... if we want to be exact, technically, only the kiss drains energy: "A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level." But if we use that as just one example rather than a complete list, the wording is very clear that it isn't something they can just turn off.


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T'is a fine day when you then reveal to be a faceless creature.

Lookie here, no lips! No lips = no passionate kisses for you!


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Chyrone wrote:

T'is a fine day when you then reveal to be a faceless creature.

Lookie here, no lips! No lips = no passionate kisses for you!

Well, they never did say where she needs to put her lips. ;)


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Based on the text for the succubus, I think the drain is automatic. It's not perfectly clear, but TrinitysEnd does point out the strong supporting text. That said, I think that it makes it a lot more difficult for a succubus to infiltrate a society because one kiss would give her away. Or kill the poor low-level guard/noble/merchant, leaving her to deal with another problem. Mechanics not quite supporting the role of the creature I suppose.


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And the we have the issue of succubus lovers, concubines, and harems. Seen in many APs, and a focus or prominent part in no less than two(Wrath of the Righteous and Shattered Star), not to mention the upcoming Return of the Runelords, staring our favorite not-a-succubus succubus, Sorshen. Even if you have the will save beyond high, you still have a 1-in-20 fail rate on the seduction. I can’t picture the BBEG keeping a plaything around that will kill them in less than two minutes.

The level drain is part of the effect, the seduction to get more kisses/continue the act of passions is will save dependent. The ability’s stat block, as written support an automatic trigger on an act of passion; however, every other bit of rules, lore, and AP content support an at-will.

Noticula has a 2 level drain on mythic and 1d6+4 levels on non-mythic. I know she’s on the cusp of Godhood and slays demon lord rivals, but doing them in before the make out even gets warmed up? Plus how many adventures have the possibility of the player being rewarded by a succubus’ company?

I may be missing some other option, but it seems that either Succubi are chaste asexual seducers, or they can control the drain.


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I haven't been around for months. I cannot believe this thread is still living.


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The easy answer to always on energy drain is that it doesn’t function at all when shapeshifted. So you don’t frolic with them in their true form if you want to live.


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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
I haven't been around for months. I cannot believe this thread is still living.

Ikr.

TrinitysEnd wrote:

Chyrone wrote:

T'is a fine day when you then reveal to be a faceless creature.
Lookie here, no lips! No lips = no passionate kisses for you!
Well, they never did say where she needs to put her lips. ;)

If she's a very persistent succubus, i agree with that.

Neck, forehead, top of the hand (thinking Gomez Adams here)...


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OK, we got Pathfinder 2.0 on the horizon, so if we're gonna answer any more questions, I think we need to get crackin' and wrap this up in time for the playtest!


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Pathfinder 2.0 is still a couple years out, so we have enough time to be thorough. Though the promise of new toys to play with sounds quite tempting. If there will be changes to grappling, level drain, and how things will convert over.


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Oh, we won't be wrapping this up any time soon. I mean, we don't even know how succubi nor grappling work in 2.0. We'll have years and years to wrestle passionately with the new mechanics.


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blahpers wrote:
Oh, we won't be wrapping this up any time soon. I mean, we don't even know how succubi nor grappling work in 2.0. We'll have years and years to wrestle passionately with the new mechanics.

Who knows, the succubus might drain the life out of them while doing so ;P


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CrimsonVixen wrote:

And the we have the issue of succubus lovers, concubines, and harems. <snip>

I may be missing some other option, but it seems that either Succubi are chaste asexual seducers, or they can control the drain.

Just wanted to chime in that I support this logic.

A succubus that cannot control her Energy Drain makes little to no sense to me.


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RoseCrown wrote:
CrimsonVixen wrote:

And the we have the issue of succubus lovers, concubines, and harems. <snip>

I may be missing some other option, but it seems that either Succubi are chaste asexual seducers, or they can control the drain.

Just wanted to chime in that I support this logic.

A succubus that cannot control her Energy Drain makes little to no sense to me.

Never read The Dresden Files, I take it?


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blahpers wrote:
RoseCrown wrote:
CrimsonVixen wrote:

And the we have the issue of succubus lovers, concubines, and harems. <snip>

I may be missing some other option, but it seems that either Succubi are chaste asexual seducers, or they can control the drain.

Just wanted to chime in that I support this logic.

A succubus that cannot control her Energy Drain makes little to no sense to me.
Never read The Dresden Files, I take it?

But is Dresden Files written with that element in mind, or are people keeping Succubi harems, summoning them for flings, and having fun or falling in love?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If, as it seems, grappling is a skill check in 2E (Acrobatics, Athletics, something like that), Dex-focused succubi will have a significant advantage without needing Agile Maneuvers. I understand that 2E will build monsters differently, but using the 1E method we know and love, what feat should replace Agile Maneuvers on a standard succubus?


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CrimsonVixen wrote:
blahpers wrote:
RoseCrown wrote:
CrimsonVixen wrote:

And the we have the issue of succubus lovers, concubines, and harems. <snip>

I may be missing some other option, but it seems that either Succubi are chaste asexual seducers, or they can control the drain.

Just wanted to chime in that I support this logic.

A succubus that cannot control her Energy Drain makes little to no sense to me.
Never read The Dresden Files, I take it?
But is Dresden Files written with that element in mind, or are people keeping Succubi harems, summoning them for flings, and having fun or falling in love?

As someone pointed out above, their Change Shape would remove this ability and allow them to do the things people would do with a harem without killing them. But as I said, I've always been more of a fan of the "May" drain rather than "Does" drain. And I always remove this restriction in my games if I use them (which was... Once or Twice. No grappling happened though.).


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Lathiira wrote:
OK, we got Pathfinder 2.0 on the horizon, so if we're gonna answer any more questions, I think we need to get crackin' and wrap this up in time for the playtest!

If you are going to be wrapping each other up, can I get the concession stand rights? I think I have some new magic item elixirs, potions, and such to add to the mix.

/cevah


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Cevah wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
OK, we got Pathfinder 2.0 on the horizon, so if we're gonna answer any more questions, I think we need to get crackin' and wrap this up in time for the playtest!

If you are going to be wrapping each other up, can I get the concession stand rights? I think I have some new magic item elixirs, potions, and such to add to the mix.

/cevah

If any wrapping up happens it will be because Crimson feels up for more research. I doubt she'll have a problem with your normal work in concessions, but you can ask her.


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If the said succubus drinks an elixir of sex shift while grappling, do they turn into an incubus?


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Cevah wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
OK, we got Pathfinder 2.0 on the horizon, so if we're gonna answer any more questions, I think we need to get crackin' and wrap this up in time for the playtest!

If you are going to be wrapping each other up, can I get the concession stand rights? I think I have some new magic item elixirs, potions, and such to add to the mix.

/cevah

I wasn't aware you had lost the concession stand rights, but if you wish to renegotiate your fee...

willuwontu wrote:
If the said succubus drinks an elixir of sex shift while grappling, do they turn into an incubus?

Outsiders do not have a specific gender, Demons don't as well, made of Abyssal whatever, that determines how they reproduce or spread. So the elixir would not affect a Succubus. Succubi can take a male humanoid form, and several in Paizo Scenarios and APs have done so. Now of course a succubus in human form could drink the elixir and Change Shape to the opposite gender and make the others believe it affected them.


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CrimsonVixen wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
OK, we got Pathfinder 2.0 on the horizon, so if we're gonna answer any more questions, I think we need to get crackin' and wrap this up in time for the playtest!

If you are going to be wrapping each other up, can I get the concession stand rights? I think I have some new magic item elixirs, potions, and such to add to the mix.

/cevah

I wasn't aware you had lost the concession stand rights, but if you wish to renegotiate your fee...

I'm in agreement with Crimson for this one. Though she and I have yet to discuss what we'll be up for this bout....


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Since I am never informed of when you two do your research, and I can't seem to find a reliable diviner, I am never sure if my previous contract is still in effect as it is for a certain number of events. When I do renegotiate, I will certainly specify the count to be events that I am informed of in a timely manner.

That is why I keep putting in my bid, even if I already have it. Because I don't know that I still have it. Sigh....

/cevah


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My apologies, Cevah. We definitely aren't hiding anything and we'd let you know if your contract were up.


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While I know you arn't hiding anything, especially while doing research, you will when you start the wrapping up.

Enjoyable to do business with you ladies.

/cevah

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