Succubus in a grapple.

[Sin of Asmodeus]

So, I recently was running a game, in which I had a succubus to play around with, and one of the characters ran up and grappled her.
On her turn I stated. Okay, we are grappled. We both have the grappled condition, with you being the grappler, so I um. Level drain you.

As it states, a succubus must be in a grapple to perform her Kiss / drain. Am I in the wrong for level draining the grappler who had me held up?

[Lamontius]

...could you describe this further, or uh, post pictures?

I mean, uh, just so we can help you as much as possible.

Yeah.

[MacGurcules]

I have a suspicion that the ability was written with the expectation that the succubus would be the one starting the grapple.

That said, some monsters are more dangerous than others when grappling. Seems legit to me.

[Michael Sayre]

Maybe draw a picture of what was going on so we have a better frame of reference..?

But no, it sounds like you did exactly the right right thing. Unfortunately, your player used particularly bad tactics for combating a succubus.

[RuyanVe]

+1 - to what Lamontius said, that is. What? I'm a scientist. I know about the power of images and how they help grasping reality and such...

[Sigard Spleenbiter]

Sounds legit.

[Marthian]

From the reading of it, it does sound like it would work.

Alternatively, it wouldn't sound too hard to rather than struggle away, to instead just move closer.

[Adamantine Dragon]

So... did the grappler do it from behind or in front?

[Michael Sayre]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

So... did the grappler do it from behind or in front?

Depends on whether the character was a fighter, monk or rogue. As we all know, Rogues do it from behind.

[Lamontius]

If this thread doesn't go over the 100+ post mark, then we are totally breaking up, Paizo Forums.

I mean it.

[Adamantine Dragon]

I'm just wondering how many people could stop themselves from running up and grappling with a succubus...

Still, I concur entirely with Lamontius and RuyanVe and think the only proper way to consider this question is with pictures. Highly detailed pictures from multiple angles will probably be necessary. Or maybe even a video...

[Lamontius]

How high was the grappler's CHA score?
This matters.

[Michael Sayre]

Lamontius wrote:

How high was the grappler's CHA score?
This matters.

+1

There is mechanical significance to how this question is answered.

[Master of Stools]

I'd be tempted to give her a bonus for her second constant power.

Spoiler:

tongues

[Thornborn]

When one grapples succubi, go right for the pin
No, do not linger in the clinch, it's not a fight you'll win
Don't kiss the supple demoness, as from you your strength drains
And grinning, she will sup her fill, and discard what remains

So, when you grapple succubi, try coming from behind
And, quickly, now, control the head, of beauty most unkind
And keep those luscious lips well clear, of all your flesh, my son
They're simply just too perilous, for all they seem like fun

[Emmit Svenson]

What if both grapplers were succubi? What if they were under the effects of a Grease spell? We need more details to make a definitive ruling.

[Cainus]

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

So, I recently was running a game, in which I had a succubus to play around with, and one of the characters ran up and grappled her.

On her turn I stated. Okay, we are grappled. We both have the grappled condition, with you being the grappler, so I um. Level drain you.

As it states, a succubus must be in a grapple to perform her Kiss / drain. Am I in the wrong for level draining the grappler who had me held up?

To actually answer the question (craziness I know) Pathfinder actually differentiates between grappler and grapply. So if the player started the grapple they could say they're making certain the Succubus' lips aren't coming anywhere near them as part of the grapple (they are in control).

The succubus could then attempt to reverse the grapple (become the grappler) and initiate the um... "act of passion" necessary to drain levels, as described in the Bestiary.

[Lamontius]

Weapon Focus: Pillow

[Michael Sayre]

Cainus wrote:

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

So, I recently was running a game, in which I had a succubus to play around with, and one of the characters ran up and grappled her.

On her turn I stated. Okay, we are grappled. We both have the grappled condition, with you being the grappler, so I um. Level drain you.

As it states, a succubus must be in a grapple to perform her Kiss / drain. Am I in the wrong for level draining the grappler who had me held up?

To actually answer the question (craziness I know) Pathfinder actually differentiates between grappler and grapply. So if the player started the grapple they could say they're making certain the Succubus' lips aren't coming anywhere near them as part of the grapple (they are in control).

The succubus could then attempt to reverse the grapple (become the grappler) and initiate the um... "act of passion" necessary to drain levels, as described in the Bestiary.

The succubus' (succubi?) ability only stipulates that the target must be grappled, which he was. Controlling a grapple just means that you can freely release it, whereas if you are the one being grappled, you have to attempt to escape. The succubus using her Enrgy Drain was appropriate and mechanically sound.

And hot.

[Adamantine Dragon]

OK, to avoid the double entendre and try to answer the question, here is my best shot.

As I read and understand the rules, there is no clear distinction in the application of the succubus's power and who initiated or "controls" the grapple. It says the power operates while grappled. So I am fine with the ruling that by grappling the succubus, the player's character became vulnerable to the succubus's power.

So, no, I don't think it was "wrong" to drain the PC's level. I would consider this a wonderful opportunity for the player in question to learn a bit about impulsive combat behavior.

Of course I completely understand why the player in question would have wanted to get his licks in.

[Michael Sayre]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

OK, to avoid the double entendre and try to answer the question, here is my best shot.

As I read and understand the rules, there is no clear distinction in the application of the succubus's power and who initiated or "controls" the grapple. It says the power operates while grappled. So I am fine with the ruling that by grappling the succubus, the player's character became vulnerable to the succubus's power.

So, no, I don't think it was "wrong" to drain the PC's level. I would consider this a wonderful opportunity for the player in question to learn a bit about impulsive combat behavior.

Of course I completely understand why the player in question would have wanted to get his licks in.

Haha, "licks in". You couldn't help yourself, could you AD?

[Lamontius]

I see what you did there, AD.

[Sin of Asmodeus]

To illistrate more, it was a female druid shapeshifted into a bear, who was quite displeased as I started level draining.
You may continue.

[Lamontius]

Can we just pretend that she wasn't shapeshifted into a bear?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

To illistrate more, it was a female druid shapeshifted into a bear, who was quite displeased as I started level draining.
You may continue.

Thats definitely illegal in 37 states, and the District of Columbia. Costs extra in Mexico, though.

[amorangias]

ITT: Paizo forum goes full /tg/.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

To illistrate more, it was a female druid shapeshifted into a bear, who was quite displeased as I started level draining.

You may continue.

I'm sorry, did you just say it was a bare female druid?

And where are those pictures?

[Artanthos]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I'm sorry, did you just say it was a bare female druid?

And where are those pictures?

If only I had been there.

Not that I would have intervened.......

[Lamontius]

I have some concerns about the Druid's AC score.
What was she wearing?

I mean, uh, what kind of armor?

[firefly the great]

Lamontius wrote:

Can we just pretend that she wasn't shapeshifted into a bear?

You're no fun anymore...

[Lamontius]

Okay, fine then, Firefly...

Bearly Legal 3: Bi Succubi

We're sitting on a goldmine here.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Surely it's no coincidence that two succubuses are called succubi.

[Bacon666]

All legit... if the group successfully beats the succubus, have them meet a high Cha female vampire next... just to see if they learned anything :)

[PatientWolf]

Cainus wrote:

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

So, I recently was running a game, in which I had a succubus to play around with, and one of the characters ran up and grappled her.

On her turn I stated. Okay, we are grappled. We both have the grappled condition, with you being the grappler, so I um. Level drain you.

As it states, a succubus must be in a grapple to perform her Kiss / drain. Am I in the wrong for level draining the grappler who had me held up?

To actually answer the question (craziness I know) Pathfinder actually differentiates between grappler and grapply. So if the player started the grapple they could say they're making certain the Succubus' lips aren't coming anywhere near them as part of the grapple (they are in control).

The succubus could then attempt to reverse the grapple (become the grappler) and initiate the um... "act of passion" necessary to drain levels, as described in the Bestiary.

So the Succubus can only level drain if she is on top?

[Adamantine Dragon]

PatientWolf wrote:

So the Succubus can only level drain if she is on top?

I dunno about RAW, but I have to believe that RAI allows for multi-positional level sucking.

[Mikaze]

I don't think the rules make a clear distinction, but I think the intention is for the succubus to be in control of a grapple in order to pull off level drainage. That's what I'd roll with.

That way, a monk or somesuch could put a succubus in some sort of limb-locking hold. As long as she maintains the grapple and doesn't engage the succubus in any sort of sexual activity, the succubus can't do anything to her.

[PatientWolf]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

PatientWolf wrote:

So the Succubus can only level drain if she is on top?

I dunno about RAW, but I have to believe that RAI allows for multi-positional level sucking.

I still think we need detailed illustrations of various grappling positions in which a succubus is able to engage in level sucking in order to make the most informed ruling possible.

[Michael Sayre]

Mikaze wrote:

I don't think the rules make a clear distinction, but I think the intention is for the succubus to be in control of a grapple in order to pull off level drainage. That's what I'd roll with.

That way, a monk or somesuch could put a succubus in some sort of limb-locking hold. As long as she maintains the grapple and doesn't engage the succubus in any sort of sexual activity, the succubus can't do anything to her.

"...succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss". If the monk's getting handsy enough to hold her down, I think there's enough skin contact for her to start sucking down.

[Alzrius]

You made the right call. It's not about the nature of the succubus's special power, it's simply that her action falls within the nature of what someone being actively grappled can do:

The Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Ssalarn wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

I don't think the rules make a clear distinction, but I think the intention is for the succubus to be in control of a grapple in order to pull off level drainage. That's what I'd roll with.

That way, a monk or somesuch could put a succubus in some sort of limb-locking hold. As long as she maintains the grapple and doesn't engage the succubus in any sort of sexual activity, the succubus can't do anything to her.

"...succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss". If the monk's getting handsy enough to hold her down, I think there's enough skin contact for her to start sucking down.

Hmm... I suppose that means it matters how passionate the monk is about holding the succubus down.

[Lamontius]

Bacon666 wrote:

All legit... if the group successfully beats the succubus, have them meet a high Cha female vampire next... just to see if they learned anything :)

what the-... man, you could just have the succubus meet the vampire and then you wouldn't even need the group.

[Michael Sayre]

If he's not passionate enough, does she get a bonus to break free?

[Adamantine Dragon]

Alzrius wrote:

You made the right call. It's not about the nature of the succubus's special power, it's simply that her action falls within the nature of what someone being actively grappled can do:

The Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

Again, all joking aside, this seems pretty clear. If you can do a full attack or cast a spell while grappled, it seems pretty obvious that a succubus could lock somewhere on the grappler to accomplish her nefarious level draining goals.

I think the idea of grappling is that there's all kinds of squirming, wriggling, jiggling and waggling going on, which would seem to favor the succubus's favored attack...

[Zog of Deadwood]

It does not say that succubi must kiss to energy drain. It's fairly clear from a close reading of the power that the word "kiss" is standing in for a range of activities:

Quote:

Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

ANY "act of passion" could presumably be used for this ability. Some take longer than a single standard action to complete (one would think or at least very much hope), but it looks likely that a succubus could drain energy from a victim in all sorts of ways. Some wouldn't even require a grapple check, if the victim was unwitting of the demon's true nature and thus was not unwilling. A simple caress could probably do the job, although in truth that would most often not come into play with PCs as it's doubtful you can caress someone in combat unless they are grappled.

[Michael Sayre]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Again, all joking aside, this seems pretty clear. If you can do a full attack or cast a spell while grappled, it seems pretty obvious that a succubus could lock somewhere on the grappler to accomplish her nefarious level draining goals.

I think the idea of grappling is that there's all kinds of squirming, wriggling, jiggling and waggling going on, which would seem to favor the succubus's favored attack...

This is a mechanically infallible defense. I'm pretty sure "there's all kinds of squirming, wriggling, jiggling and waggling going on" is straight out of the book for a description of grappling.

[Mikaze]

I don't know....I can see a grappler managing a succubus-proof hold...

Attack from behind, grappler's arms up under the succubus' arms, reaching back and pulling those arms back, reach back under the succubus' wings, push them up, hands on the back of the succubus' head, holding that down, pin to the ground, knee on the back.

Completely non-sexy hold on the monk's part, and nothing the succubus can do on her part.

I'd throw in incubi handling scenarios too for equal time, but they apparently work very differently

edit-Actually, coming up with pinning visuals and strategies for beings with unusual symmetries is kinda fun. That could be a thread all on its own...

[Sigard Spleenbiter]

What music was the Bard playing when the grappling was occurring? This would help me immensely.

To make a ruling, I mean!

[Michael Sayre]

At the end of the day, while there have been a few dissenting voices, I think majority opinion is clear. If you're silly enough to grapple a succubus, you deserve to get screwed.

[PatientWolf]

Zog of Deadwood wrote:

ANY "act of passion" could presumably be used for this ability. Some take longer than a single standard action to complete (one would think or at least very much hope),

One of my players once played a thief with the quick escape feat and he was always prematurely pulling out of the grapple but I don't believe that feat is in Pathfinder, and the little blue pills seem to have fixed the issue anyway.

[Lamontius]

Mikaze I am happy to include incubi in this thread if it will keep you from hijacking it with all of your arguments that actually make sense.

We don't need that kind of behaviour here.