Settling an Disagreement - Cantrips / Orisons


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Recently, I was party to a disagreement concerning 0 Level Cantrips/Orisons. My original understanding was that you can prepare your daily limit of those spells but you can cast a single one of them as many times you wish up to your 0 level spells per day limit.

According to what I have seen so far in my search on this topic was that 0 level spells do not expend the spell slot after they are cast (like spells of level 1 and up) and have no limit on the number of times they can be cast.

If the player has a spell component pouch and any of their spells require a material component, it is my thought that there is no way they can have an unlimited supply of that particular component (firefly for light as an example).

I hope to get this cleared up once and for all so I can insure my understanding of this topic is correct or bring myself to the correct understanding. Thank you everyone for your time and patience.


With regard to cantrips/orisons, the latter is correct.

Say you know 6 cantrips but can only prepare 4 per day. That means that you can choose four at spell preparation time which you will be able to cast an unlimited amount of times until you next prepare spells, whereupon you can choose to swap some out for either of the other two.

It is assumed (and part of the rules) that if you have a spell component pouch, you have an unlimited supply of any material component that has no gold cost mentioned. Pathfinder isn't meant to be completely realistic.


I think the rules say that if you have a spell component pouch, you always have the material components for the spell, unless it's a material component with a specific pouch.


From what I know as well, you can cast 0-level spells all day and that unless they(being the spell component) have a cost, there isn't a point in keeping track of it. Page 213 of the CRB is where the component part is for material components.

EDIT: What the above posters said. You're assumed to have any negligible cost spell component from your pouch when casting a spell with material components.


LearnTheRules wrote:

With regard to cantrips/orisons, the latter is correct.

Say you know 6 cantrips but can only prepare 4 per day. That means that you can choose four at spell preparation time which you will be able to cast an unlimited amount of times until you next prepare spells, whereupon you can choose to swap some out for either of the other two.

It is assumed (and part of the rules) that if you have a spell component pouch, you have an unlimited supply of any material component that has no gold cost mentioned. Pathfinder isn't meant to be completely realistic.

Learn the Rules is right here.

Furthermore, in the case of a spontaneous caster such as sorcerer or bard you can cast all your 0 level spells as often as you want, provided you have a spell component pouch (if they require materials in the first place).
Of course as a sorcerer you got eschew materials anyway, so your question does not apply there ;-)

Scarab Sages

Thank you everyone, it looks like the disagreement has been officially settled as far as I am concerned. I appreciate the responses and the help that this community provides on questions such as this.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The unlimited fire flies is why I tend to prefer dancing lights over light. ;)

Save the fire flies! Cast Dancing Lights!

Dark Archive

The one minute duration of Dancing Lights is why I prefer Light at ten minutes per level. You cannot rely on a spell that you have to recast every ten rounds for combat use. Too often you will end up having to spend a round casting a cantrip in the middle of combat and occasionally getting attacked in the dark with all the penalties that entails. Also you will be casting every minute audibly giving away your position and approach.

Granted, it is unfortunate for Fireflys. Fortunately you get 200 per ounce.

Grand Lodge

Also, along with Eschew Materials, False Focus s even better, as long as you protect your divine focus.

Now, if only there was a hint as to when Greater False Focus and Improved False Focus will be published. ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Spell Component Pouch is a gamist mechanic designed so that players do not need to account for utterly mundane material components like sand or butter.

Consider the Spell Component Pouch to essentially be a borderline magical object that doesn't actually radiate a dweomer (magic aura) of its own, and you'll be fine. As long as you have one, you can draw from it as much mundane material components that you need do not have a specified GP cost.

Scarab Sages

Thank you everyone, I am now enforcing the spell component pouch being in inventory or the limitation on 0 level spells happens. Thank you all for pointing that out and settling this issue for one that is (and will probably be for a long time) in a constant learning state with this game.


Way more interestingly, how are your players going to cast any level 1 or higher spells with M components if they don't have a spell component pouch or eschew materials?

Grand Lodge

Kalridian wrote:
Way more interestingly, how are your players going to cast any level 1 or higher spells with M components if they don't have a spell component pouch or eschew materials?

"With my (gold) Holy Symbol of Razmir, of course."

Russo, Kitsune Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest) (Undead bloodline)

Sovereign Court

From a GMs perspective, I think there are too many other things to worry about than keeping an investory of low-cost spell componants. If you want to enforce it, that's your perogative, but I suspect it'll start getting irritating after a while. At the end of the day, all player has to do is say "I have a hundred firefly's and I will replenish my supply anytime we camp in the wilderness or hit a settlement of some description."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
It is assumed (and part of the rules) that if you have a spell component pouch, you have an unlimited supply of any material component that has no gold cost mentioned. Pathfinder isn't meant to be completely realistic.

This is the kind of presumption that GM's can drop if players are being a bit abusive. If a player intends to casts a cantrip a thousand times over, then the GM is within his right to say that such a huge magnitude of components can no longer be hand-waved.

I feel there's a balance between hand-waving and enforcing spell components. The reason these things are hand-waved in the first place is to reduce paperwork and delays that aren't particularly meaningful, to get the flavor without the annoyance. However, if the component pouch would actually become a relevant limitation then that is when you as a GM are in your right to enforce it.

Ultimately as GM, it's up to you to decide when to step in, if at all. Sometimes it may be appropriate to say "earlier this afternoon you went to the market and stockpiled the fireflies you'd need for this. The two-thousand fireflies you purchased cost you 2 GP", while other times you may want to roll some dice and say "you realize your component pouch only contains 73 fireflies, and it's a five-day journey to the nearest town to stockpile more". Do what makes most sense, both to the situation in-game and towards the theme you're going for.


Also, it (may) be assumed that your casters are restocking their component pouches as they go. Certainly in town you can probably find someone selling fireflies and such.

Sovereign Court

Dasrak wrote:
If a player intends to casts a cantrip a thousand times over, then the GM is within his right to say that such a huge magnitude of components can no longer be hand-waved.

If it's allowed to get to the stage where a player is able to cast a cantrip a thousand times, it sounds like your game is symptomatic of other problems. I wouldn't be allowing a player to say "I always have this cantrip running". In-game, a cantrip requires concentration. Therefore, a player ought to be required to announce whenever he casts one. If he is still able to cast it a thousand times a day, then he deserves it.

Sovereign Court

You might also want to introduce cost of living rules to your campaign to simplify things:

Core Rulebook p405 wrote:

Cost of Living

An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?

You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.

Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.

Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.

Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.

Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.

Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.

Liberty's Edge

Having the spell component pouch covers the M spell requirement. For convenience, it is assumed to have as many of a given component as needed, merely for simplicity. Most people prefer their FRPGs to involve plots, NPCs, bad guys, and role playing rather than accounting for every bit of grease and bat poop needed for their spells. But, different groups like different styles; do what works for you.

It only gets silly when someone wants to convert their unlimited supply of butter for a grease spell into inability-to-starve-but-watch-out-for-clogged-arteries.

Grand Lodge

The Diplomat wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
If a player intends to casts a cantrip a thousand times over, then the GM is within his right to say that such a huge magnitude of components can no longer be hand-waved.
If it's allowed to get to the stage where a player is able to cast a cantrip a thousand times, it sounds like your game is symptomatic of other problems. I wouldn't be allowing a player to say "I always have this cantrip running". In-game, a cantrip requires concentration. Therefore, a player ought to be required to announce whenever he casts one. If he is still able to cast it a thousand times a day, then he deserves it.

Well, let's see. 8 hour adventuring day, 1st level. 10 minutes duration, no concentration. 6 casts an hour. 48 casts while adventuring. Lots cheaper than 2 sunrods to cover 12 hours.

Which cantrip?:
Light.

Sovereign Court

kinevon wrote:

Well, let's see. 8 hour adventuring day, 1st level. 10 minutes duration, no concentration. 6 casts an hour. 48 casts while adventuring. Lots cheaper than 2 sunrods to cover 12 hours.

** spoiler omitted **

No worries. Since you're generally not tracking rounds outside initiative-based encounters, if a player starts abusing it just have the cantrip's time run out during an inconvenient moment in combat. If the player wants their cantrip back again, they're going to have to expend a standard action to get it.

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