IMO, that is a problem with the players, and not with the class itself. Note also that some players go out of their way to have their characters make problems to the Paladin.
Yeah, but doesn't the class itself make it so the player *has* to make it a problem for the rest of the party? If they tolerate a companion that is, say, a thief, then they run the risk of falling if they don't get all up in his business.
How can anyone say the paladin is OP? -.-... Have you NOT SEEN AM BARBARIAN?I think pretty highly of the paladin's mechanical power. Too many people think of the higher level paladin as just becoming a greater and greater anti-evil engine... the truth is that as he grows into higher levels the paladin can become a versatile and effective warrior against foes of all alignments, especially as his spells and weapon bond come into their own.
"IF" I were to consider the Paladin 'Op'... it would NOT have anything to do with his 'offense'ability.
Smite is gloriously fun... but it's too limited with the x/per day. Most combat days there are enough enemies that I'm always debating whether to USE one now?? or save it for whatever is behind dungeon door #2....
For me... it's the SAVING throws!!! I've got a 7th level one in kingmaker right now... and the crap he shrugs off is just astounding. Then add in the lay on hands and channel and he is down right awesome!!
Smite?? Too many ways around that, from hordes to 'neutral' enemies... but being able to just TAKE the spells and hits?? that's where I think they shine.
Is it OP?? No. Some levels I thought it may be CLOSE... but not really 'unbalancing'.
How can anyone say the paladin is OP? -.-... Have you NOT SEEN AM BARBARIAN?I think pretty highly of the paladin's mechanical power. Too many people think of the higher level paladin as just becoming a greater and greater anti-evil engine... the truth is that as he grows into higher levels the paladin can become a versatile and effective warrior against foes of all alignments, especially as his spells and weapon bond come into their own.
"IF" I were to consider the Paladin 'Op'... it would NOT have anything to do with his 'offense'ability.
Smite is gloriously fun... but it's too limited with the x/per day. Most combat days there are enough enemies that I'm always debating whether to USE one now?? or save it for whatever is behind dungeon door #2....
For me... it's the SAVING throws!!! I've got a 7th level one in kingmaker right now... and the crap he shrugs off is just astounding. Then add in the lay on hands and channel and he is down right awesome!!
Smite?? Too many ways around that, from hordes to 'neutral' enemies... but being able to just TAKE the spells and hits?? that's where I think they shine.
Is it OP?? No. Some levels I thought it may be CLOSE... but not really 'unbalancing'.
At the same time though, AM BARBARIAN also has pretty good saves (Supersticious is retarded good), Has better HP, and a DR that cannot be bypassed. And AM BARBARIAN has an even stronger layer of defense than just that, CAGM. With CAGM, he can kill things before it can actually hit him, giving hin one of the best defenses of all, an overwhelming offence.
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IMO, that is a problem with the players, and not with the class itself. Note also that some players go out of their way to have their characters make problems to the Paladin.Yeah, but doesn't the class itself make it so the player *has* to make it a problem for the rest of the party? If they tolerate a companion that is, say, a thief, then they run the risk of falling if they don't get all up in his business.
Why would that be ?
- The LG alignment is not a problem, else no LG PC could ever adventure with a thief (Rogue). As we know, a great lot do.
- The code requires
1) "that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), "
2) "help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), "
3) "and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
The first two are only concerned with the Paladin's actions. Not with those of his buddies.
The third one states that the Paladin must punish those who attack innocents. If the thief is not a jerk and concentrates on non-innocent targets, all will be well.
Same thing if he is subtle enough that the Paladin never knows of the thief's wrongdoings. Note that since the Paladin is Lawful, he should require real proofs that the thief harmed or threatened innocents. Mere clues or guesses or gut feelings are not enough. Note also that being Evil is not enough to be automatically considered guilty. The Paladin punishes the proven guilty act, not the evil intent.
- The Associates part states that
1) "a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code."
As seen above, a non-jerk thief or a subtle one will not "consistently offend her moral code".
2) "Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil."
Even associating with clearly evil guys is allowed !!! The thief PC should be well below this kind of tolerance limit.
3) "A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good."
Most interesting part here IMO is the preventive use of Atonement to avoid losing powers. Note also that as long as the Paladin feels that the alliance is justified (doing more good than harm), he can keep on adventuring with the clearly evil guy.
There is a good leeway here to allow for many interesting roleplay opportunities while letting the Paladin free to decide whether he will continue associating with his buddies if they prove to be unsubtle jerks.
In other words, no place for jerks here on either side of the fence.
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What is truly disgusting is a Paladin and a Barbarian in the same group imo. The Barbarian rages and the Paladin uses his Mercy to nullify the fatigue from the Barbarian rage ability.
If they would write down a proper code as opposed to a vague abstract one it would reduce the amount of discussions. The only rpg I never had trouble with in terms of alignment is the one used by Palladium. It lays down in point form what you can or cannot do by alignment. Wondering if your allowed to steal by your alignment or use torture to get information it tells you.
Personally, I just rule "grossly" right back in that sucker.
Well, that, and I create a whole host of different paladin codes, depending on the order and the campaign world.
That's just me, though.
I pretty much use the original version, or work something out with the player if they want to play a Paladin that's from a different background or ideology; but that's not how the RAW function, and for the purpose of both function and honesty I discuss the rules as written. So when people ask a question like "what's wrong with the Paladin?" or some derivative thereof, I point out the flaws in the RAW. There's actually precious few. I love the PF Paladin.
Now yes, it can be fixed with house rules (unless you're playing PFS). It's also a good place to make house rules, or become aware of what needs to be house-ruled.
Honestly, I'm ecstatic that there is a movement towards speccing survivability. It has long been argued since the days of 3.0 that offense > everything. Nine times out of ten this was entirely true because if your enemies are dead then you are not getting attacked, and when offense so heavily outweighs defense, speccing defense just meant that you were going to die slower but would still die.
Today - especially for our martials - they are both dangerous enough to make it impossible to ignore them but stalwart enough to actually shrug bad things. Barbarians and Paladins both have wonderful options for eating just a huge amount of punishment (and not just physical punishment) which allows them to be heroic and carry a group in endurance very well.
Rangers aren't quite as tanky (they have some nice tanky options) but they're more generalist / stalker damage. In general, I think that Barbarian / Paladin / Ranger are very well balanced. In fact, most of core is pretty good in that regard. You can run Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, and Sorcerers in the same parties and everyone contributes well and carries their own weight.
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I think it's a problem to have a class that automatically cares a lot about what the rest of the party is doing.
This may be the saddest thing I've ever read on these forums.
1) "a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code."
Yeah they would. A thief would be violating that whole 'respect legitimate authority' thing. Also might be using poison or lying or cheating.
This may be the saddest thing I've ever read on these forums.
Sad that a class only works if they police other PC's behavior?
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Paladins require a responsible player and a responsible DM. They are a class that is designed for s specific type of game. There is nothing in the books that state all classes work together no problem.
Paladins don't make any such announcements, are found in the player's guide, and make no special mention of a particular type of game that they are or are not suitable for. You're adding something that is not present.
Paladins require a responsible player and a responsible DM. They are a class that is designed for s specific type of game. There is nothing in the books that state all classes work together no problem.
There's nothing that says they don't either ... except the Paladin's code.
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While perusing the boards, it seems there is much disdain for the paladin class. Why is this? Is it because people perceive them as too powerful or do people think playing a character seen as the pinnacle of good isn't "cool"?
Many people on the board don't like restrictions of any kind, and so they view having to follow a code as punishment.
These people should not be playing paladins.
But they want all the features without the penalties.
Much like I want Ice Cream without the calories.
Because a group is vocal, doesn't mean it is actually reflective of the boards as a whole.
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While perusing the boards, it seems there is much disdain for the paladin class. Why is this? Is it because people perceive them as too powerful or do people think playing a character seen as the pinnacle of good isn't "cool"?
It all depends on the DM, does he/she want to screw you over with "codes" Ok do not play a Pally.
If you can play a "Rooster Cogburn" type Party on.
I know when I was was younger I despised paladins, mostly due to the fact that i consider myself (mostly) lawful good and I wanted to do something different i.e be the overlord of one of the nine hells.
I still have no desire to be "king arthur" because if I wanted to play a character like myself, I would play "paper and paychecks"
Paladins always seem to attract sub-par RPers for some reason. Paladins really aren't hard to rp; they can have a wide range as other characters. But I suspect that is why some people/groups don't like them.
The other big issue is players wanting to play evil type characters without the evil alignment.
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It's not so much as the code being a punishment. It needs to be better defined. It's not imo. I sometimes play Rifts and imo it has the best alignment.
Their version of Lawful Good which is called Princepled.
A Principled character will:
1 Always keep his word
2. Avoids Lies
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe
4. Never harms a innocent
5. Never torture for any reason
6. Never kills for pleasure
7. Always helps others
8. Always works within the law whenever possible
9. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means no breaking and entering, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults etc.
10. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor
11. Work well in a group
12. Never take any dirty money or ill-gotten valuables or goods. This means property that belongs to criminals or villains. It ammters not how the the bad guys got the property themselves; the hero will not touch it even if destitute.
13. Never betray a friend
This to me should be ho a alignment or code of conduct for a class like the Paladin should be written.