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1. You can't be crossblooded and wildblooded.
2. You can be crossblooded and a dragon disciple if one of your bloodlines is draconic.
Wildblooded modifies a class feature affected by crossblodded. Also mike made a ruling a month or so ago
Here's the thread that asks the exact same question.
Here's the specific post where Mike Brock says Wildblooded/Crossblooded can't be combined.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Why can't you be crossblooded and wildblooded?
- I'm not asking for opinions, I'd like to see the reasoning and ruling somewhere
A crossblooded bloodline combines the powers of two distinct heritages. …
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. …
Example: A 3rd-level aberrant/abyssal crossblooded sorcerer…
These small bits from the archetype are considered both bloodlines, not one or the other, and not some weird amalgamation of the two. You essentially get to pick which powers, feats, spells, etc. from each bloodline you get at the level a bloodline normally gets one of those things.
You also take a huge penalty at -1 spell known per spell level (including cantrips) and -2 Will Saves.
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
I don’t see how a Crossblooded sorcerer with one of their bloodlines being Draconic would break the game by being allowed to be a Dragon Disciple. One of their bloodlines is Draconic, and that in my mind satisfies the requirement.
Wildblooded (Linnorm) on the other hand, is a different question, and the bloodline is now not draconic, but linnorm. Even though it uses the Draconic bloodline as a chassis. I would rule no on this one.
Design Manager
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Just dropping this in here for reference for the OP:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature
Since Wildblooded and Crossblooded both alter the Bloodline class feature, they are incompatible.
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Design Manager
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Crossblooded seems to not modify the bloodline class feature directly but instead talks in terms of you have two bloodlines and you get ... from each of your bloodlines.
That is exactly the definition of altering a class feature. You have one class feature : Bloodline.
An archetype that lets you choose two different bloodlines and cherry pick them has altered the way that ability works.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
actually, your bloodline has a series of smaller abilities and wildblooded replaces 2 of those abilities with their wildblooded counterpart.
crossblooded merely lets you mix and match bloodline powers.
even though you replaced 2 bloodline powers through wildblooded, crossblooded lets you mix and match. which need not require anything but the replaced arcana, which isn't replaced, you get 2 of them.
the other replaced power, merely becomes optional, which need not be taken.
so wildblooded draconic/sage is legal by a reading of RAW.
bloodline isn't one single class feature, it is a series of themed class features.
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that wouldn't matter. archetypes can't be combined if they modify / alter the same ability.
even if a bloodline is a series of themed class features, modifying them with the Wildblooded archetype would make it incompatable with the Crossblooded archetype.
in a home game, its up for grabs. RAW they don't combine.
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Design Manager
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actually, your bloodline has a series of smaller abilities and wildblooded replaces 2 of those abilities with their wildblooded counterpart.
crossblooded merely lets you mix and match bloodline powers.
even though you replaced 2 bloodline powers through wildblooded, crossblooded lets you mix and match. which need not require anything but the replaced arcana, which isn't replaced, you get 2 of them.
the other replaced power, merely becomes optional, which need not be taken.
so wildblooded draconic/sage is legal by a reading of RAW.
bloodline isn't one single class feature, it is a series of themed class features.
They both alter the bloodline class feature, which is in fact just one class feature, which RAW, means they are strictly illegal. Whether a particular GM feels that they should be allowed to work together is up to him, but RAW, they are not compatible.
that wouldn't matter. archetypes can't be combined if they modifiy / alter the same ability.
even if a bloodline is a series of themed class features, modifying them with the Wildblooded archetype would make it incompatable with the Crossblooded archetype.
the crossblooded archetype lets you choose from 2 bloodlines, the wildblooded archetype is merely altering a choice or few within the list.
it isn't much different from taking a different rogue talent or rage power.
imagine the stock bloodline powers as predetermined bonus 'feats'
imagine crossblooded as allowing you to mix and match these 'feats' from 2 seperate bloodline lists
and imagine wildblooded as replacing one or a few of these 'optional feats' with a different 'option'.
wildblooded in this case, is no longer replacing a feature, but a crossblooded option.
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Design Manager
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that wouldn't matter. archetypes can't be combined if they modifiy / alter the same ability.
even if a bloodline is a series of themed class features, modifying them with the Wildblooded archetype would make it incompatable with the Crossblooded archetype.
the crossblooded archetype lets you choose from 2 bloodlines, the wildblooded archetype is merely altering a choice or few within the list.
it isn't much different from taking a different rogue talent or rage power.
imagine the stock bloodline powers as predetermined bonus 'feats'
imagine crossblooded as allowing you to mix and match these 'feats' from 2 seperate bloodline lists
and imagine wildblooded as replacing one or a few of these 'optional feats' with a different 'option'.
wildblooded in this case, is no longer replacing a feature, but a crossblooded option.
Go look at the sorcere's list of class features. Bloodline, is one singular class feature. It has a lot of sub options, but it is one class feature, the same way a druid has numerous choices for an animal companion, but only one Animal Companion class feature. Anything that alters part of the bloodline feature, is altering the bloodline feature, and doesn't work with any other archetype that also alters the bloodline class feature. Bloodline is not a series of themed class features. It is one contiguous class feature with scaling abilities.
They both alter the bloodline class feature, which is in fact just one class feature, which RAW, means they are strictly illegal. Whether a particular GM feels that they should be allowed to work together is up to him, but RAW, they are not compatible.actually, your bloodline has a series of smaller abilities and wildblooded replaces 2 of those abilities with their wildblooded counterpart.
crossblooded merely lets you mix and match bloodline powers.
even though you replaced 2 bloodline powers through wildblooded, crossblooded lets you mix and match. which need not require anything but the replaced arcana, which isn't replaced, you get 2 of them.
the other replaced power, merely becomes optional, which need not be taken.
so wildblooded draconic/sage is legal by a reading of RAW.
bloodline isn't one single class feature, it is a series of themed class features.
in that case, by your interpretation a ninja couldn't take a 2nd archetype that replaced the ninja tricks list with an alternate list of variant ninja tricks because the ninja, an archetype of rogue, already replaced rogue talents with ninja tricks
i don't see bloodline on the chart, just several entries for bloodline power and bloodline spell.
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which archetype is that?
if its an archetype that specifically calls for Ninja Tricks, instead of Rogue Talents?
Ninjas work slightly differently as they're an Alternate Class.
its not listed out what has been replaced with what, they're just presented to us whole cloth.
If you want to take a rogue archetype as a Ninja, you must possess the class abilities, as a ninja, that you're looking to replace.
ex: ninja + scout work.
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Design Manager
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So, by the same token, a Dual Cursed Oracle, cannot also be a possessed oracle since both modify the "Oracle Curse" class feature? (one says that you have to take 2 curses, and the other says that your curse must be tongues or haunted)
Correct. The same way you can't stack archetypes for a cleric when they both alter the domain class feature, even if one archetype alters it by limiting you to one domain, and the other says you have to take a specific domain. They both alter the domain (or Oracle Curse) class feature.
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i don't see bloodline on the chart, just several entries for bloodline power and bloodline spell.
after the "Spells" section in Sorcerer base class, core rule book, you'll see an entry titled "Bloodline".
the chart tells you when you get too choose a bloodline power / feat. but you still have a Bloodline ability as part of the sorcerer base class.
imagining is great.
if the bloodlines had been presented as alternate bloodlines as a shorthand without the archetype, they would clearly be compatible.
as they are, they're clearly intended to be incompatible.
Just like Ninjas can never take levels in Rogue.
by your logic the bloodlines themselves are archtypes, and thus incompatible with either crossblooded nor wildblooded because all the archetypes modify the arcane baseline. some more drastically than others.
by that same logic, an antipaladin cannot be a knight of the sepulcher, because the archetype is replacing an ability that replaces yet another ability from the main class.
which archetype is that?
if its an archetype that specifically calls for Ninja Tricks, instead of Rogue Talents?
Ninjas work slightly differently as they're an Alternate Class.
its not listed out what has been replaced with what, they're just presented to us whole cloth.If you want to take a rogue archetype as a Ninja, you must possess the class abilities, as a ninja, that you're looking to replace.
ex: ninja + scout work.
purely hypothetical. alternate classes are nothing more than giant archetypes, or else, if you wanted to argue that they are proper classes of their own. i should in that case, be able to multiclass rogue and ninja, or samurai and cavalier.
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in the preface of ultimate combat, the actual book. for some reason its not presented on the paizo.com/prd it explains what Alternate Classes are, and proceeds to explain explicitly that you cannot take levels in the Alternate class and its base class ( ie. ninja and rogue ).
Bloodlines themselves are not archetypes. Have you read what an archetype is? have you actually read any of the rule books?
Wildblooded IS an archetype. it explicitly allows you to take a VARIANT of an existing bloodline ( from those presented ). You otherwise cannot take those variant bloodlines.
They modify the Bloodline class feature of sorcerers.
Which is why you cannot combine it with Crossblooded.
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Design Manager
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by your logic the bloodlines themselves are archtypes, and thus incompatible with either crossblooded nor wildblooded because all the archetypes modify the arcane baseline. some more drastically than others.
This is silly. They are altering a class feature. It is an item listed under the sorcerer list of "class features".
by that same logic, an antipaladin cannot be a knight of the sepulcher, because the archetype is replacing an ability that replaces yet another ability from the main class.
Knight of the Sepulcher does not replace any paladin abilities, it replaces Fiendish Boon, a feature of the Antipaladin. Also, Alternate Classes are like extended archetypes, they are not true archetypes. They are alternate classes, classes which are so close to an existing class that it would be silly not to utilize the resources available to the base class, but too complex to be done by a simple archetype.
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purely hypothetical. alternate classes are nothing more than giant archetypes, or else, if you wanted to argue that they are proper classes of their own. i should in that case, be able to multiclass rogue and ninja, or samurai and cavalier.
there are no archetypes that call on the Ninja Trick, if there were, they would be archetypes that only the Ninja alternate class could take. A rogue by having Rogue Talents would not be able to qualify.
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Design Manager
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in the preface of ultimate combat, the actual book. for some reason its not presented on the paizo.com/prd it explains what Alternate Classes are, and proceeds to explain explicitly that you cannot take levels in the Alternate class and its base class ( ie. ninja and rogue ).
Bloodlines themselves are not archetypes. Have you read what an archetype is? have you actually read any of the rule books?
If you actually just scroll up a teeny bit, you'll see that I even linked in the rules on archetypes. Look, I did it again.
And here's Alternate Classes.*Gasp* What's this? "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class"? So LD, your Ninja and Antipaladin arguments hold no water. And the Archetype rules are clear, as is the definition of a class feature:
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a sorcerer's gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail (see Arcane Spells and Armor).
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.
Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
etc.
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This sums up my question well
true. in most cases, an archetype specifically says when it is altering or replacing a class ability. but the wording on Wildblooded is pretty clear that it is altering the bloodline ability:
When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline's class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline's bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline's bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.
Mikes' answer for PFS holds water as a rules call in general, unless developers want to chime in to clarify that Wildblooded does not "alter or replace" a class feature, and that it was left out specifically to allow for Crossblooded Wildbloods. Since i don't see any Devs doing that, lets presume that the two archetypes that both alter Bloodline don't stack.
Feel free to hit the FAQ , that's your prerogative.
still, alternate classes are essentially archetypes. bloodlines are essentially archetypes themselves. they just don't call themselves such. the same can be said about wizard schools, and cleric domains.
a cleric can take multiple subdomains and an archetype that modifies the domain class feature.
why can't one have a wildblooded crossblooded sorcerer? the cleric is double dipping domain mods, maybe even triple dipping.
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Design Manager
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still, alternate classes are essentially archetypes. bloodlines are essentially archetypes themselves. they just don't call themselves such. the same can be said about wizard schools, and cleric domains.
a cleric can take multiple subdomains and an archetype that modifies the domain class feature.
why can't one have a wildblooded crossblooded sorcerer? the cleric is double dipping domain mods, maybe even triple dipping.
No, bloodlines, wizard schools and cleric domains are not archetypes. They really, truly are Class Features.
You can't have a wildblooded, crossblooded sorcerer, because the devs chose to make wildblooded and crossblooded archetypes. Considering the fact that they're right next to each other in the book, a book which also contains cleric subdomains which are not archetypes, I'm assuming this was a deliberate choice, possibly made specifically to prevent that combination, for whatever reason they foresaw. If you want to houserule differently, that's your right and privilege, but ti is not RAW, it doesn't fly in PFS games, and it directly contradicts the rules laid out in multiple core books.|
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bloodlines, domains, specialty schools, are all class options. not archetypes.
because domains / subdomains are explicitly NOT archetypes, a cleric with subdomains chosen can still take AN archetype.
If they hypothetically created a cleric archetype Wild Domained, and required you to take that archetype to use any of the subdomains in the APG, that would limit you to 1 subdomain, and prevent you from taking another cleric archetype that modified your Domain class feature
All of these things have been given capital letter Game Mechanic terms, in order to identify things and distinguish them. If you don't recognize that a Domain is not an Archetype, that a Conjuration Specialization is a Class option or Class Feature, you should work on recognizing the terms.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I know this post is a bit old at this point but I wanted to put my two cents in and also possibly get an answer to the original question, or at least part of the original question. Wildblooded requires you to pick a common bloodline and then use it's features with a few exceptions as noted in the selected mutated version. Therefore if a wildblooded sorcerer chose Draconic with a mutated version of linnorm it is still draconic in nature. You can't select linnorm without choosing draconic. So the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class should be available to a Linnorm Wild Blooded Sorcerer. Linnorm is merely a mutated version of the Draconic Bloodline. Linnorm is not its own bloodline.
People, this has already been officially clarified. The RAW are clear. Change it if you want for your home game.
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FAQ'ed 10/23/2013 - Crossblooded + Wildblooded not allowed (without GM permission)
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?