Design Manager
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The trait would include anything from the Eastern Weapons table, exotic or otherwise. Not all classes will have martial weapon proficiency, so this can be a good way to give your tengu rogue/cleric/etc. a flavorful weapon set.
A Fighter who is proficient in all martial weapons will be able to use Eastern Martial weapons as well.
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a couple of quick questions.
1. are eastern weapons just like other/standard weapons meaning that a fighter's martial weapon proficiency means that he is proficient with all the martial eastern weapons as well?2. i asked 1 in part because of the tengu "exotic weapon training" trait which states they can gain proficiency in 3 + int modifier eastern weapons (which seemed to imply that eastern weapons were considered differently). my question about that trait is, does that include eastern exotic weapons? or just simple/martial eastern weapons?
thanks in advance
I believe the trait name is intended to mean the exotic weapon types but is being used to mean unusual or foreign. There is several times in the section on eastern weapons that refers to them as exotic when it is not talking specifically about exotic weapon types. For example:
"Characters need not always be of an Eastern-inspired class—such as the ninja or the samurai—or have a background in an Asian-fantasy-inspired nation to take advantage of these expanded choices. An unusual or exotic weapon gained during the course of a hero's adventures or inherited from a relative or mentor with a mysterious past is an easy way to help an otherwise European-inspired character expand his background and stand out from the crowd."
"From wushu's whirling chains and multi-bladed polearms to the awe-evoking mystique of the samurai's gleaming blades, the martial arts of the East evoke images of fantastic weaponry. Exotic even within their own cultures,..."
I think the Tengu trait is using exotic in the meaning of unusual or peculiar and not a reference to the official exotic weapon type.
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Design Manager
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The trait would include anything from the Eastern Weapons table, exotic or otherwise. Not all classes will have martial weapon proficiency. A Fighter who is proficient in all martial weapons will be able to use Eastern Martial weapons as well.thanks for the clarification. that's what i figured, but i wanted to double check. i was editing my post while you were answering, so if you look back at this, what are your thoughts about the kama and the sword trained aspect?
thanks.
I personally think a kama is a little too different from a sword to qualify for the swordtrained ability, but opinions may vary a little here.
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Design Manager
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For Clarity:
"•Exotic Weapon Training: Instead of swords, some tengus are trained in exotic weaponry. Such tengus choose a number of eastern weapons equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons. This racial trait replaces swordtrained."
Exotic Weapon Training is just the name of the ability, with no mechanical significance.
What the feat actually does is allow the tengu to "choose a number of eastern weapons equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons."
They don't need to be of the type Exotic Weapon, they just need to be any 3+INT mod weapons from the Eastern Weapons table(s).
**EDIT**
So a diagram:
Exotic Weapon Training- this is the ability name: Instead of swords, some tengus are trained in exotic weaponry- this is fluff, no mechanical impact. Such tengus choose a number of eastern weapons equal to 3 + their Intelligence bonus, and gain proficiency with these weapons- this is how the ability impacts the game mechanically. This racial trait replaces swordtrained- This is the ability you replace when taking this ability
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i'm confused, i think patientwolf's view is that the "exotic trained" trait would NOT include eastern weapons in the exotic category, but it sounds to me like you are saying it would. am i misunderstanding you?What Patient Wolf said...
"Exotic", when talking about weapon proficiencies, doesn't mean, "from a foreign country"...it means "requires specialized training to use effectively."
It doesn't really matter if you call it a scimitar, sabre, shamshir, talwar, kastane, shoto, dao, or a saif...if it's a curved sword wielded with one hand, it's going to function pretty much like a scimitar, and use the same Martial Weapon Proficiency.
No, that isn't quite right. I believe the name of the trait is misleading in that the trait name isn't referencing actual the actual exotic weapon type.
However, the actual description doesn't say anything about exotic weapons but says "eastern weapons" so the character can take eastern weapons of any type.
What I was getting at with my previous post is that you can't say that westerners must have the exotic weapon proficiency feat to use eastern weapons, even if they are simple or martial, based upon this trait.
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Design Manager
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but it would include the eastern exotic weapons then.
that makes sense to me since there was no clarification in terms of simple versus martial either.
this would be for a pfs game, so has anyone had any experience in that setting?
I play in PFS regularly and I've yet to meet anyone who interpreted that ability as meaning anything other than "pick 3+INT mod weapons off the Eastern Weapons table". Exotic, martial, whatever, pick your Eastern weapons and you can use them.
The Tengu Exotic Weapon Training lets you become proficient in any Eastern weapon, be it simple, martial, or exotic.
Swordtrained would not apply to Sianghams or Kama as they are most definitely not swords or even daggers. However, I must ask--why would you want proficiency in those terrible weapons? They are the monk's consolation prizes, not actually useful weapons.
For reference, I think the weapons that the Sword-Trained ability would apply to are:
Brass Knife, Dagger, Punching Dagger, Dogslicer, Gladius, Switchblade Knife, Kukri, Sea-Knife, Short Sword, Cutlass, Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Sword Cane, Terbutje, Falchion, Glaive (debateable, but it was traditionally a sword blade on a pole), Greatsword, Swordbreaker Dagger, Tri-Bladed Katar, Butterfly Knife, Sica, Falcata, Khopesh, Rhoka, Sawtooth Sabre, Shotel, Aldori Dueling Sword, Bastard Sword, Elven Curve Blade, Two Bladed Sword, Butterfly Sword, Kerambit, Lungchuan Tamo, Shang Gou, Nine Ring Broadsword, Double Chicken Sabre, Naginata (debateable, but it was traditionally an inferior katana blade on a shaft), No-Dachi, Tri-Pointed Double Edged Sword, Bich'hwa, Pata, Wakizashi, Katana, Temple Sword, Urumi, and the Seven-Branched Sword
i'm glad you asked. so someone on the boards was advocating a dex/finesse built martial artist (getting to ditch strength means less damage but a higher dex and wis meaning a better ac and better expose weakness rolls as well as stunning fist DCs was, i think, the basic gist). i thought it seemed interesting but couldn't get anyone to answer about if they pictured it being unarmed or using a weapon to be able to magic it up for cheaper.
The Amulet of Mighty Fists was recently lowered in price. A +1 Agile AoMF should be all you need.
then, as i was figuring out how i would do it, it seemed that getting the needed feats (finesse, piranha strike, probably weapon focus) might require a first level fighter dip. if i was going to be using a weapon though, i needed to find a way to be able to use a light "monk" weapon at that first level (at least if i wanted to take weapon focus - i guess finesse and piranha strike ar global, right?). so, that was probably more than you asked for, but that's why i was trying to figure if tengu would help me get there. any thoughts?
Actually, there are quite a few "monk" weapons that a fighter starts proficient in (which is odd because monks are not proficient in all of these):
Cestus, Brass Knuckles, Hanbo, Butterfly Sword, Jutte, Lungchuan Tamo, Shang Gou, Tonfa, and the Wushu Dart
The Tengu Sword Training ability gets you a few of those, while the Exotic training ability can get you any of those after Brass Knuckles as well as these exotic weapons:
Bich'hwa, Dan Bong, Emei Piercer, Fighting Fan, Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, and Siangham
The Emei Piercer is especially noteworthy as it can make attacks on its own, or it can simply be used to deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes, which lets you deal your full unarmed damage while benefiting from a weapon's enchantments/special materials.
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Design Manager
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i'm glad you asked. so someone on the boards was advocating a dex/finesse built martial artist (getting to ditch strength means less damage but a higher dex and wis meaning a better ac and better expose weakness rolls as well as stunning fist DCs was, i think, the basic gist). i thought it seemed interesting but couldn't get anyone to answer about if they pictured it being unarmed or using a weapon to be able to magic it up for cheaper.The Amulet of Mighty Fists was recently lowered in price. A +1 Agile AoMF should be all you need.
then, as i was figuring out how i would do it, it seemed that getting the needed feats (finesse, piranha strike, probably weapon focus) might require a first level fighter dip. if i was going to be using a weapon though, i needed to find a way to be able to use a light "monk" weapon at that first level (at least if i wanted to take weapon focus - i guess finesse and piranha strike ar global, right?). so, that was probably more than you asked for, but that's why i was trying to figure if tengu would help me get there. any thoughts?Actually, there are quite a few "monk" weapons that a fighter starts proficient in (which is odd because monks are not proficient in all of these):
Cestus, Brass Knuckles, Hanbo, Butterfly Sword, Jutte, Lungchuan Tamo, Shang Gou, Tonfa, and the Wushu Dart
The Tengu Sword Training ability gets you a few of those, while the Exotic training ability can get you any of those after Brass Knuckles as well as these exotic weapons:
Bich'hwa, Dan Bong, Emei Piercer, Fighting Fan, Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, and Siangham
The Emei Piercer is especially noteworthy as it can make attacks on its own, or it can simply be used to deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes, which lets you deal your full unarmed damage while benefiting from a weapon's enchantments/special materials.
Since the off-hand side of a double weapon is treated as light, would the crescent side of a Monk's Spade be eligible for the Agile weapon property and Weapon Finesse? I'm thinking no, but it would be sweet if there was a way to make that work, since Monk's Spade is a martial weapon that deals all 3 damage types.
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Design Manager
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hold the phone! i thought for pfs at least it had been determined that there were no...
You do not use the Eimi's enhancements or materials with your unarmed strike. Especially not in PFS. SKR has made it clear on multiple occasions that no melee weapons use Unarmed Strike damage. You try to take it into PFS, you're going to get shot down. The Eimi as written does allow you to make your unarmed strikes as piercing attacks, but you would use your normal unarmed modifiers, not the Eimi's enhancements and materials.
hold the phone! i thought for pfs at least...
Sorry, I don't know anything at all about PFS. I never played it and have no intention of doing so. I didn't mean to give you misleading information in that context.
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Design Manager
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hold the phone! i thought for pfs at least...Sorry, I don't know anything at all about PFS. I never played it and have no intention of doing so. I didn't mean to give you misleading information in that context.
They errata'd the crap out of all the weapons when they released Ultimate Equipment to nix any references to using a weapon with your unarmed strike damage. There is no base weapon in Core right now that can use your Unarmed Strike damage die.
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I personally think a kama is a little too different from a sword to qualify for the swordtrained ability, but opinions may vary a little here.The trait would include anything from the Eastern Weapons table, exotic or otherwise. Not all classes will have martial weapon proficiency. A Fighter who is proficient in all martial weapons will be able to use Eastern Martial weapons as well.thanks for the clarification. that's what i figured, but i wanted to double check. i was editing my post while you were answering, so if you look back at this, what are your thoughts about the kama and the sword trained aspect?
thanks.
A kama is most similar to a sickle or "small scythe" (per Wikipedia). Tengu are not proficient with sickles or scythes.