Goblin Squad Member
|
Firstly, I know very little about Pathfinder, but I really like the Goblins that have been created for the technology demo, so I see the appeal of this race, right away.
I like the idea of going C/E -> Goblins option; that is interesting. But what about as a Kickstarter reward for high backer levels? Not only would that be a big draw, it would keep them as a special (non-ordinary) choice?
Even if it's not permissible, "someone" had to ask this question of questions. +1
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would like them to be rare because they're such a large part of the world, but they're mostly mobs, so I think it feels right if they're rare because they're sort of outcasts or break aways.
If prefer it not as a kick starter reward only because I have a thing against content that people who discover something later can NEVER get.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Goblins as PCs would make no sense. Or, if you want, lock a Goblin PC's alignment as CE, and there is no way to change it. If we have Lawful Good kingdoms made up of Goblins, we're no longer playing Pathfinder. It might be a fantasy MMO, but it won't be Pathfinder anymore.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Goblins as PCs would make no sense. Or, if you want, lock a Goblin PC's alignment as CE, and there is no way to change it. If we have Lawful Good kingdoms made up of Goblins, we're no longer playing Pathfinder. It might be a fantasy MMO, but it won't be Pathfinder anymore.
How would you feel if most good / lawful aligned NPCs started as attacking goblins on sight and some could never be won over. Even when talking about lawful good player city guards. Plus it would be highly difficult for goblins to learn common.
Without any hard restrictions that would make sure lawful good goblin kingdoms, and goblins running around the streets of most cities wouldn't be much of an issue.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Goblins as PCs would make no sense. Or, if you want, lock a Goblin PC's alignment as CE, and there is no way to change it. If we have Lawful Good kingdoms made up of Goblins, we're no longer playing Pathfinder. It might be a fantasy MMO, but it won't be Pathfinder anymore.How would you feel if most good / lawful aligned NPCs started as attacking goblins on sight and some could never be won over. Even when talking about lawful good player city guards. Plus it would be highly difficult for goblins to learn common.
Without any hard restrictions that would make sure lawful good goblin kingdoms, and goblins running around the streets of most cities wouldn't be much of an issue.
Try me again? Maybe its just me, but I'm having a hard time discerning your point...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Basically if your lawful-good goblin paladin goes riding into a lawful good town (Player or NPC) the guards will assume he is a raider and attack him on sight. Also he can't speak common without considerable training.
This sort of makes goblin players segregate into their own societies which will not be good or lawful.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Basically if your lawful-good goblin paladin goes riding into a lawful good town (Player or NPC) the guards will assume he is a raider and attack him on sight. Also he can't speak common without considerable training.
This sort of makes goblin players segregate into their own societies which will not be good or lawful.
This makes one wonder where the goblin was able to receive training for his/her Paladin skills.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Basically if your lawful-good goblin paladin goes riding into a lawful good town (Player or NPC) the guards will assume he is a raider and attack him on sight. Also he can't speak common without considerable training.
This sort of makes goblin players segregate into their own societies which will not be good or lawful.
They would also be attacked by npc goblins, suggesting they are outcasts from goblin society. Maybe that paladin is an outcast BECAUSE he is a paladin.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This makes one wonder where the goblin was able to receive training for his/her Paladin skills.Basically if your lawful-good goblin paladin goes riding into a lawful good town (Player or NPC) the guards will assume he is a raider and attack him on sight. Also he can't speak common without considerable training.
This sort of makes goblin players segregate into their own societies which will not be good or lawful.
Good point. Especially if training a skill requires interacting with NPCs to start training... It might be impossible.
"Stoopids humans gobbies comeses for yous."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly. And then we run into the problems of mass scale. If a Goblin can become a LG Paladin, then assume there will be hundreds of them. If there are hundreds of LG Goblin Paladins, then we aren't anywhere near Golarion anymore, its a different realm. I'm fine with adding all sorts of races to the game over time, but some monstrous races just don't support being PCs of anything but Chaotic Evil.
If players *want* to be the Orc Brigands of Thornkeep, I guess I could see that. Lock em in as CE, let em play out how Orcs and Goblins and Bugbears actually live in Golarion.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Exactly. And then we run into the problems of mass scale. If a Goblin can become a LG Paladin, then assume there will be hundreds of them. If there are hundreds of LG Goblin Paladins, then we aren't anywhere near Golarion anymore, its a different realm. I'm fine with adding all sorts of races to the game over time, but some monstrous races just don't support being PCs of anything but Chaotic Evil.
If players *want* to be the Orc Brigands of Thornkeep, I guess I could see that. Lock em in as CE, let em play out how Orcs and Goblins and Bugbears actually live in Golarion.
But by the same token you could argue "only elves and dwarves can master blacksmithy, a human will never be as good"
Or "an elf couldn't use those spells, they would have to be a drow, and a drow has to be evil"
Or "a half elf can't master anything that isn't entirely a self sufficient skill, because they're outcasts"
Or "half orcs are distrusted, so they'll never be able to train as this skill" because "that's how they are"
Yes, I think goblins should be rare, and if there's no special benefits, why would there be a large number anyway?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Exactly. And then we run into the problems of mass scale. If a Goblin can become a LG Paladin, then assume there will be hundreds of them. If there are hundreds of LG Goblin Paladins, then we aren't anywhere near Golarion anymore, its a different realm. I'm fine with adding all sorts of races to the game over time, but some monstrous races just don't support being PCs of anything but Chaotic Evil.
If players *want* to be the Orc Brigands of Thornkeep, I guess I could see that. Lock em in as CE, let em play out how Orcs and Goblins and Bugbears actually live in Golarion.
But by the same token you could argue "only elves and dwarves can master blacksmithy, a human will never be as good"
Or "an elf couldn't use those spells, they would have to be a drow, and a drow has to be evil"
Or "a half elf can't master anything that isn't entirely a self sufficient skill, because they're outcasts"
Or "half orcs are distrusted, so they'll never be able to train as this skill" because "that's how they are"
Yes, I think goblins should be rare, and if there's no special benefits, why would there be a large number anyway?
None of which would be jarring. Playable races are Playable because they are open to being a wide variety of things. Non-playable races aren't. They are almost living stereotypes. And Golarion lore says that Goblins are not Lawful Good, nor are they Paladins, or capable of building nations. If they want to stick to Pathfinder Lore, it doesn't work.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Except that goblins are in the advanced races as a playable race already.
As for "incapable of forming a nation"
Neither are half elves or half orcs really, so what? They can still be part of one.
As I've said already, a playable goblin wouldn't be part of the goblin npc factions.
An elf layer isn't restricted to "an elf nation" why is a goblin?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Except that goblins are in the advanced races as a playable race already.
As for "incapable of forming a nation"
Neither are half elves or half orcs really, so what? They can still be part of one.
As I've said already, a playable goblin wouldn't be part of the goblin npc factions.
An elf layer isn't restricted to "an elf nation" why is a goblin?
Just because things have been published, doesn't mean they fit in Golarion.
Try this source. Goblins aren't nation builders, they're nation burners. And, honestly, why are Elves able to have a wide range of personalities and choices? Because the setting writers said so. In a different setting, Goblins could be different. But here, they aren't.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Except that goblins are in the advanced races as a playable race already.
As for "incapable of forming a nation"
Neither are half elves or half orcs really, so what? They can still be part of one.
As I've said already, a playable goblin wouldn't be part of the goblin npc factions.
An elf layer isn't restricted to "an elf nation" why is a goblin?
Just because things have been published, doesn't mean they fit in Golarion.
Try this source. Goblins aren't nation builders, they're nation burners. And, honestly, why are Elves able to have a wide range of personalities and choices? Because the setting writers said so. In a different setting, Goblins could be different. But here, they aren't.
But I can say the same thing "just because its written somewhere"
Yet there they are on the Paizo website in the advanced races section.How is that not part of the world being created under Paizo publishing?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have you all noticed that PFO is making it' own rules and will have none to very little influence on PF PnP. The GW could easly say goblins are a playable race and have them into a bloodline of halfgiant demigods. I do not believe goblins will be a playable race unless we can get a huge portion of the fanbase to agree such a race will be both accepted and desired. If the fans want it give it to them basic consumer and demand because if they do not sell it to us someone else will and thats the truth.
But why would they do that? It doesn't make any sense. Keep in mind that the COO of Goblinworks is the CEO of Paizo. Sure they could throw the baby out with the bathwater, but why would they? Golarion has a great setting, so why drastically alter it to the point where they must divorce the two completely? Also, see the Emerald Spire as a combined effort between the two.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
But I can say the same thing "just because its written somewhere"
Yet there they are on the Paizo website in the advanced races section.
How is that not part of the world being created under Paizo publishing?
Because there is a difference in the Pathfinder RPG and Pathfinder Setting. One is a set of tools for players and GMs to use to create their own games. One is a fictional world which Paizo has created.
@ Arlock:
No, if GoblinWorks does not give us Goblins as a playable race in Golarion, no one else will. Golarion is a licensed product. No other company but GoblinWorks is allowed to make a game based on it at this time. And I can't see Paizo selling the rights to their setting to another company when they already have an MMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
But I can say the same thing "just because its written somewhere"
Yet there they are on the Paizo website in the advanced races section.
How is that not part of the world being created under Paizo publishing?Because there is a difference in the Pathfinder RPG and Pathfinder Setting. One is a set of tools for players and GMs to use to create their own games. One is a fictional world which Paizo has created.
.
Correct. A fictional world which Paizo has created. So I can see abolutwly no reasoning to your objection to goblins.
No one has suggested the construction of a goblin npc town that's some sort of lg utopia where the goblins are all peaceful and loving and given up their cruel ways.
But for some reason you think "goblins" MUST stereotype as a race and follow the rules set out as a monster, apparently because elves etc are basic established races it's ok to diversify them, but goblins, being an advanced race, can't.
I can't see any logic to this at all.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Goblins are a playable race in the PnP.
Theres even an adventure module out where the character party consists of all goblins.
There are a LOT of playable races in the PnP, in a book called the Advanced Race Guide, which in fact comes with a complete set of rules to make custom character races as well as rules to convert any monster to a playable character race.
From the Advanced Race Guide:
Core races - Humans, Elves, Half Elf, Half Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling
Featured Races - Aasimars, Catfolk, Dhampirs, Drow, Fetchlings, GOBLINS (yup, they're in there), Hobgoblins, Ifrits, Kobolds (I vote for these) Orcs, Oreads, Ratfolk(these too), Sylphs, Tengus, Tieflins (fan favorite) & Undines.
Uncommon Races - Changelings, Duergar, Gillmen, Gripplis, Kitsune, merfolk, Nagaji, Samsarans, Strix, Sulis, Svirfneblin, Vanaras, Vishkanyas, Wayangs.
So saying goblins CAN'T be a playable race in PFO doesn't make much sense as the background and rules are already there.
However, I beleive they have 3 planned for release, humans, elves and dwarves and last I checked halflings & gnomes were neck and neck for the 4th race if we meet the stretch goal.
This leaves the loser of those two, half-elf & half-orc's to add from the core rulebook before they get to advanceed material from other sourcebooks.
The better question would be which of the advanced races might people like to see after the core races and how long, if ever, would it take the Devs to implement them and would anyone want to start a new toon knowing its expected to take years to get "max level" with them?
FYI - There is a level 3 Goblin Sorcerer in our PnP group, along with a Stryx, Drow, Drow Noble, Dwarf, Tiefling, Half Elf, Human, Hobgoblin.
Everyone wants to BBQ the strix, the Hobgoblins & Goblin races recently fought a war so they don't like each other(both played by the same player, go figure), the Rangers favored enemies are goblinoids, everyone hates the drow, no one trusts the noble (the players nickname is "pure evil") and everyone trusts the dwarf (LG clerics ftw)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Correct. A fictional world which Paizo has created. So I can see abolutwly no reasoning to your objection to goblins.
Because in this world, they have said that Goblins are insane pyromaniacs who try to destroy towns and civilization?
No one has suggested the construction of a goblin npc town that's some sort of lg utopia where the goblins are all peaceful and loving and given up their cruel ways.
If Goblins are available as PCs, then people will create Goblin characters. Lets assume goblins make up 10% of the player base. After 5 months of early enrollment, there will be 10,000 players in game. 10% of that means there will be 1,000 Goblins in play. Lets further assume that each alignment gets 1/9th of the players. To be fair, I'll even stipulate that 1/10th will be LG, less than the others. That equals 100 LG Goblins, who would be part of a town in order to train. To keep their Alignment, they'll want to be in a Lawful or Good town, or better yet, both. And this is after only 5 months, and assuming only One in Ten players want to play a goblin, and further than only One in Ten players of Goblins are Lawful Good. Care to take that math out to Open Enrollment, with far more characters?
|
LG goblin civilizations would be a preferred goal of LG deities in the Pathfinder setting. And if the freaking Hellknights are willing to take one in...
The whole point of the River Kingdoms area is that it's a place where any disparate people have a chance of carving out something new for themselves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Correct. A fictional world which Paizo has created. So I can see abolutwly no reasoning to your objection to goblins.
Because in this world, they have said that Goblins are insane pyromaniacs who try to destroy towns and civilization?
Yup, and they don't allow reading either.
So what?
You do realize that within 6 months there will be CE griefers in this game that make the goblins look like nuns by comparison?
Destroying towns and villages (settlements) of other players is what the meta-game is going to be all about.
So if the hummies and point ears and stumpies can do it, why not goblins?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, amusingly we have illustrated that half of the people in this debate believes nature trumps nurture and the other half the opposite. Personally, after reading how goblins were created, I tend to support the nature > nurture position and that Evil behaviour (destruction and mayhem) is inherent to being a goblin. I think their brains are wired such. These behaviours activate the pleasure centers of their brains, reinforcing that behaviour. I agree a Good deity could probably rewire a goblin or few, but then they would no longer be goblins, imo.
And then, as Ryan says, if you make something available to the players, everyone will do it...it will no longer be the rare creature that all the nurture > nature people are asking for.
GW/Paizo, please do not cheapen your iconic beasties.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In the real world, I believe in a blend of nature and nurture. Where it comes to a game, I follow their established cannon.
And I'm fine with CE griefers running about. Gives The Empyrean Order something to do.
And if you'll note, I said several times that if players want to play Goblins, let em. Just lock their alignment in at CE, and let em run rampant, burning and pillaging and acting as Goblins in Golarion would.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Correct. A fictional world which Paizo has created. So I can see abolutwly no reasoning to your objection to goblins.
Because in this world, they have said that Goblins are insane pyromaniacs who try to destroy towns and civilization?
If Goblins are available as PCs, then people will create Goblin characters. Lets assume goblins make up 10% of the player base. After 5 months of early enrollment, there will be 10,000 players in game. 10% of that means there will be 1,000 Goblins in play. Lets further assume that each alignment gets 1/9th of the players. To be fair, I'll even stipulate that 1/10th will be LG, less than the others. That equals 100 LG Goblins, who would be part of a town in order to train. To keep their Alignment, they'll want to be in a Lawful or Good town, or better yet, both. And this is after only 5 months, and assuming only One in Ten players want to play a goblin, and further than only One in Ten players of Goblins are Lawful Good. Care to take that math out to Open Enrollment, with far more characters?
No one has suggested the construction of a goblin npc town that's some sort of lg utopia where the goblins are all peaceful and loving and given up their cruel ways.
And I said they should be rare, make it unlockable, how about by mastering 2 roles? (5 years) or just making in purchasable?
As there are no benefits to choosing a goblin over anything else, and assuming you also add other races as well, you won't be getting 10% of the population rolling goblin because they have no reason to. Not everyone would buy it, so that reduced the numbers, and if it's unlockable, just because its there doesn't mean it'll be played.I bought a lifetime sub to Star Trek online. I have no Klingon faction or liberated Borg characters, yet have unlocked both, the federation player base far putqeighs the Klingon player base despite the fact anyone over a certain level has access.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My mistake. Goblins are Neutral Evil.
And sure. There might be Goblins out there somewhere that are not Evil. The problem is, when you apply the sheer population of an MMO to that, it suddenly means that Good Goblins will be common.
Some things can be done on a table top game. *Your* group are the heroes, the special ones, the beings who get to break the norms. In an MMO, that doesn't work. Everyone is that "special" character.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is, when you apply the sheer population of an MMO to that, it suddenly means that Good Goblins will be common.
Exactly. I like the way Ryan said it...
From Of Ropes, Torches, Axes, and common sense.:
Every time you write this:
I would like to see a system where XXX is something you do on rare occasionsYou make a puppy cry. That's single-player thinking, not MMO thinking.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
At this point, I give up. I have provided sources that Paizo wrote on how their world works. I have shown how Goblin PCs would violate that vision. Nihimon has provided a link to where Ryan Dancey pointed out the differences between single-player thinking and MMO thinking.
I leave you with this: Goblins as PCs do not fit the vision of Golarion as laid out by Paizo.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The problem is, when you apply the sheer population of an MMO to that, it suddenly means that Good Goblins will be common.Exactly. I like the way Ryan said it...
From Of Ropes, Torches, Axes, and common sense.:
Every time you write this:
I would like to see a system where XXX is something you do on rare occasionsYou make a puppy cry. That's single-player thinking, not MMO thinking.
Being a goblin is not something you do on rare occasions, you do it or you don't, the same way you don't get to craft on rare occasions without investing in crafting skill.
I don't see anyone arguing that if everyone can get all the crafting skills, the game loses all meaning because EVERYONE will be a master in all crafts and make a city all by themselves with no help from anyone.
Making a goblin would require just as much work as any other character, so adding it S one of many alternatives won't make everyone make a goblin, particularly if it means you had to invest a considerable amount of time in it before you get to the point if even making it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Having to start out with only chaotic evil settlements potentially putting up with you (and that's not even certain) should keep goblins from overrunning the game. It could be fun to run around as a pyromaniac cannibal now and then, but living on the fringes, scavenging half-broken gear, and being constantly in need of more food would require some dedication to play on a regular basis. I think the few who become truly exceptional at it would be fun for others to fight or deal with. People's valuing of PVP is often proportional to how much sense it makes in-context.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Lore wise, apart from the fact Paizo has it as a playable race already, how many adult goblins do you think will be killed per say in game? I'd say tens of thousands. So in order to sustain casualties at that sort of level, there must be billions of them in world.
1000 good goblins is statistically a tiny number, it just so happens the river kingdoms is where they can live as outcasts from goblin society.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I was thinking maybe you could make them count as chaotic evil to all other races and make other races, dogs, and horses count as evil to them. XD
Give them access to chaotic evil/neutral, neutral evil and true neutral based on their interactions with each other. Give them their own special structures which are about equivalent to chaotic evil towns in effectiveness to other races.
I would do this after the 2016 release and make playing a goblin a purchasable expansion called "We be Goblins Online"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree that Goblins as a playable race SHOULD come as a Chargeable Expansion. Simple fact is as someone stated previously the CORE races are first and then later on everything opens up.
Heres something to discuss also, Everquest one has an expansion devoted to Becoming a monster and actually going out to stop hero PC's from doing quests.
Why not have something like that in PFO like Andius said a 'we be goblins online' expansion that actually lets the Players create roving bands of monsters!
There is a enough magic within the world of Galorian for an inherently evil Character to be 'Converted' changed to be good.
but thats my thourghts :)
discuss! :)
I actually really like that idea!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I actually really like that idea!I agree that Goblins as a playable race SHOULD come as a Chargeable Expansion. Simple fact is as someone stated previously the CORE races are first and then later on everything opens up.
Heres something to discuss also, Everquest one has an expansion devoted to Becoming a monster and actually going out to stop hero PC's from doing quests.
Why not have something like that in PFO like Andius said a 'we be goblins online' expansion that actually lets the Players create roving bands of monsters!
There is a enough magic within the world of Galorian for an inherently evil Character to be 'Converted' changed to be good.
but thats my thourghts :)
discuss! :)
I never knew that about Everquest: Closest I'd seen was Monster Play in LOTRs. Again, it's going in the right direction for mmorpgs: Interaction between people that AI cannot match (if you'll excuse the minor lecture).
One reason I like the Goblin race idea (apart from those v good models in the tech demo) is co-opting some idea that has a very real impact on playing PfO in the kickstarter rewards - something along those lines would generate significant, direct interest. But I can see it is impractical in a few respects.
To follow on the idea of player-controlled monsters, I think devs should be able to manipulate mobs to go and "do things" ie assume direct control from HQ and wire in some commands to gather and attack some place or target. Why not some deus ex machina dev input for the PvE side of things?!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I actually really like that idea!I agree that Goblins as a playable race SHOULD come as a Chargeable Expansion. Simple fact is as someone stated previously the CORE races are first and then later on everything opens up.
Heres something to discuss also, Everquest one has an expansion devoted to Becoming a monster and actually going out to stop hero PC's from doing quests.
Why not have something like that in PFO like Andius said a 'we be goblins online' expansion that actually lets the Players create roving bands of monsters!
There is a enough magic within the world of Galorian for an inherently evil Character to be 'Converted' changed to be good.
but thats my thourghts :)
discuss! :)
I never knew that about Everquest: Closest I'd seen was Monster Play in LOTRs. Again, it's going in the right direction for mmorpgs: Interaction between people that AI cannot match (if you'll excuse the minor lecture).
One reason I like the Goblin race idea (apart from those v good models in the tech demo) is co-opting some idea that has a very real impact on playing PfO in the kickstarter rewards - something along those lines would generate significant, direct interest. But I can see it is impractical in a few respects.
To follow on the idea of player-controlled monsters, I think devs should be able to manipulate mobs to go and "do things" ie assume direct control from HQ and wire in some commands to gather and attack some place or target. Why not some deus ex machina dev input for the PvE side of things?!
I would have absolutely no problem with that. It used to happen in UO back in the day.
I will never forget seeing armies of undead marching IN FORMATION in Trinsic. That was some scary stuff.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I suspect that simply starting goblins in appropriate areas and with strong reputations befitting of a goblin (pretty much everybody hates them) should be enough to curb players producing goblins that differ to far from the mold. At least until they are higher 'level' at which point they no longer qualify as a typical goblin anyway.
If they have to start with a goblin appropriate alignment, the time an effort to switch alignments should also help limit crazy things like Goblin Paladins.
Edit: a similar policy toward any race that normally expresses a strongly predominant behavior would help to keep them from being crazy. It certainly would help limit the number of CG Drow Rangers running around if Drow were ever made playable.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with MMOs is that if its doable, there will be *lots* of players doing it. One Goblin Paladin, as controlled by Ryan Dancey? Freakishly weird, but cool, and I'd want to see it. Thousands of them? Then its obnoxious and breaks the story of the world.
