Who wins?
Level 20. Random encounter. Only time either will be fighting in the day using the rules established with Beastmass fights.
Wasn't there a FaQ of some sort that said ragelancepounce doesn't work?
So... Just in theory, who would win the fight? I am guessing the ZA aber getting past the barbarian's DR could be difficult.
Is there another class/build that could beat One?
What is Ones perception? I guess that is the important factor. Can he see AM before the suprise round?
Perception 41.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Gui de#1
When one fought the ancient gold he did so from 640ft away...
Is there another class/build that could beat One?
Well, I don't have One's build in mind, but I think both of them could be beaten by a Diviner Wizard:
- Always acting in a surprise round, check.- Likely to have the highest initiative bonus, check.
So the combat becomes:
- Ready action to cast time stop when noticing an attack (whether a charging barbarian or incoming arrows).
- Spend first round of time stop to avoid the incoming threat (Wind Wall or moving out of charging path).
- Spend additional rounds (if any) to try to take out One/AM.
- Time stop ends, and the opponent spends his turn with a futile attack.
- Wizard takes the next turn, and cast time stop again. Repeat until the battle is won, or if the resources is expended, the wizard teleport out of there.
Does One have any recourse against wind wall? Other than approaching for melee?
He beat a wind wall when fighting the balor I think... He flew to the top and shot him full of arrows.
One's initiative is 13... And the wiz is going to have a hard time with a lot because one will succeed the saves, has strong sr, a killer cmd and ac. I would think that a fight with the diviner would go much like the fight with the solar.
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Jehova's Mass Suffocation Diviner, Vacuum, kills One without taking a point of damage unless One rolls a 20 on his Fort save. (DC 47 Mass Suffocation)
Vacuum was able to complete the first Beastmass in a single day, without re-memorizing spells or taking a single point of damage. No other Beastmass contestant really comes close.
Well that's just dumb. powerful but dumb... :-)
Not to mention a 20th level Wizard is going to contingency/teleport away if he loses initiative. You literally can't beat someone with that contingencies initiative roll and still be able to attack them.
Except One will literally never get a chance to use that arrow, as Vacuum always, always, always goes first, and doesn't even really need to use Mass Suffocation honestly. He could just as easily Persistent Suffocation, and then One would have to roll 2 20s in a row to not die. One cannot beat Vacuum.
Also, casters can get high enough fort saves to pass a 29 DC. Karzoug has a +20. Vacuum only has a +14, but he doesn't really have to worry about making any saves since anything he encounters dies before they act.
Jehova didn't even spend all of a 20th level PCs wealth. There's roughly 300k gold floating in Vacuum's pool that he could spend to shore up any perceived weakness.
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Well, first off, Vacuum sounds like a brutally effective build and congratulations on theorycrafting him.
With that said, someone who has rigged things to always go first no matter what doesn't sound like something that I would have very much fun facing as a GM. My temptation would be to say "Kay. You win all the fights. Congrats. We're done. Want to start a new campaign?"
I haven't been able to play Pathfinder in double digit levels yet, but reading this makes me think I'm not missing out on very much. Honestly, high level play doesn't sound very fun with these sorts of tactics.
On the other hand, I think Vacuum would make an absolutely incredible book villain. His abilities would represent a series of obstacles that the main cast would have to figure out how to overcome before they could face him. It would make for an epic battle scene. Boring to play, but fun to read.
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I haven't been able to play Pathfinder in double digit levels yet, but reading this makes me think I'm not missing out on very much. Honestly, high level play doesn't sound very fun with these sorts of tactics.
I have played Pathfinder to double digits, and a build optimized to that degree is not common in the least...and frankly not nearly as bad as presented until level 20. Before that he gets bonuses on Initiative (half your level, to be precise), but the auto-win thing only kicks in as the 20th level.
So...don't let the theorycrafting turn you off to high level play, there are certainly problems, but they aren't nearly as insurmountable as they might appear from that build description.
With that said, someone who has rigged things to always go first no matter what doesn't sound like something that I would have very much fun facing as a GM. My temptation would be to say "Kay. You win all the fights. Congrats. We're done. Want to start a new campaign?"
Given that it only kicks in at level 20...you're generally supposed to give them a few fights to show their final trick off and then do precisely this.
Ooooooh that's different then. Cool. Thanks Deadmanwalking! :)
It doesn't need to be a diviner to beat One's initiative
Starting array (20PB): 7/14/14/17/14/7, or 7/14/14/18/11/7 human +2 to INT
Reactionary trait, improved initiative, Compsognathus familiar, at 1st level your init bonus is +12
Take a +6 belt of physical perfection, you end with +15 init.
At 20th level, you can cast 4 Wishes in a row to pump your Dex to 24 - this means init +17.
Or, you can live with init +13 and go around with a faerie dragon, who can use all your magical items as he casts as a sorcerer.
If you go the diviner's way ... another +10 bonus, and an automatic 20 on the initiative roll - means init 47 (with the compsognathus) or 43 with anything else.
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Been stated time and again, the system implodes starting at 12 th-13th level. Thats why pfs only goes to 12th.
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the system does not implode. It only implodes with lazy gms. And im real tired of people bringing up PFS as the be all end all method of play. Thats why Crane Style was nerfed to oblivion because PFS folks cant write up scenarios with enemies with multiple attacks.
/rantover
Look I think most of us agree a 20th level optimized full caster is going to beat a 20th level martial character. You can wish that the monk had donated all of his WBL to charity last week. Granted, any character can go buy scrolls of wish and UMD them at level 20 if they want to invest in UMD. I have to agree that games above 11th level run into lots of problems. It starts having nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with GM fiat.
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Kikiamori could beat any of these in a duel. Level 20kensai magus ftw (note that he WILL go first. High dex (around 11) high int mod (around 13) (which gets added to init) and auto twenties on initiative rolls. Also always acts in the surprise round. Mirror image plus very high ac will defeat One and rage lance pounce, and the wizard will be unable to act due to frostbite (fatigued, shaken, sickened, entangled, dazed, and flat footed). That's IF he lives past the first round of combat too. ~500 dmg :)
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Kikiamori could beat any of these in a duel. Level 20kensai magus ftw (note that he WILL go first. High dex (around 11) high int mod (around 13) (which gets added to init) and auto twenties on initiative rolls. Also always acts in the surprise round. Mirror image plus very high ac will defeat One and rage lance pounce, and the wizard will be unable to act due to frostbite (fatigued, shaken, sickened, entangled, dazed, and flat footed). That's IF he lives past the first round of combat too. ~500 dmg :)
One ignores concealment by spending 2 ki points and shoots the magus from up to ~500 feet away. Hardly a challenge. And Vacuum always goes first, the Magus doesn't really have much going on for him here.
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Mirror image isnt concealment.Kikiamori could beat any of these in a duel. Level 20kensai magus ftw (note that he WILL go first. High dex (around 11) high int mod (around 13) (which gets added to init) and auto twenties on initiative rolls. Also always acts in the surprise round. Mirror image plus very high ac will defeat One and rage lance pounce, and the wizard will be unable to act due to frostbite (fatigued, shaken, sickened, entangled, dazed, and flat footed). That's IF he lives past the first round of combat too. ~500 dmg :)One ignores concealment by spending 2 ki points and shoots the magus from up to ~500 feet away. Hardly a challenge. And Vacuum always goes first, the Magus doesn't really have much going on for him here.
Do'h! You're totally right, it isn't. I still think Mirror Image isn't a huge hindrance to someone who gets tons of attacks off in a round though.
I'm gonna say Am Barbarian, because he's my favorite and I bet the GM will feel the same way.
^System mastery
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Not to derail at all, but wouldn't a level 10 alchemist with the undead discovery be immune to The Void? Suffocation says it can only target a living creature.
Yup. As I said before, there are a lot of ways to avoid Suffocation. Most people don't because as a player it's hard to be undead or a a construct or spend 18000gp on an item that would otherwise only be useful if you are playing underwater or in space when there are much cheaper options for that.
If we gear each class as a standard ZA and ragelancepouce should be geared, it will be all about who wins initiative and how far apart they start. If the RLP gets initiative and is close enough to RLP, it's over. If the ZA gets initiative, it will be able to avoid the RLP forever and eventually widdle the RLP down. Sadly, this isn't a gear fight, this isn't a tactics fight, this isn't a 'how skilled are you' fight. This is purely an initiative roll off fight.
I think the real question is simple.
Vacuum vs Vacuum
Who goes first?
Vacumm or Ditka? Who wins?
Daaaaaaa bears!
Is there a druid that can compete with the top optimized like vacuum? Or a cleric?
And Vacuum always goes first, the Magus doesn't really have much going on for him here.
Why does vacuum always go first? Kensai, certain clerics, and so the I all have the same ability I thought.