Is arcane surge supposed to be useless against mythic targets?


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Here's the part that concerns me:

"If the spell requires a saving throw, any nonmythic targets making such a saving throw must roll twice and take the worse result. In addition, when using this ability you can roll twice and take the better result on any check made to overcome spell resistance, adding your archmage tier to the result."

Let's section this:

1. If the spell requires a saving throw, any nonmythic targets making such a saving throw must roll twice and take the worse result.

2. In addition, when using this ability you can roll twice and take the better result on any check made to overcome spell resistance, adding your archmage tier to the result.

#1 means arcane surge will be of little use when facing enemies with mythic tiers or templates. This won't just be a problem for the PCs, enemy wizards with arcane surge will almost certainly be designed as enemies for mythic PCs.

#2's wording is unclear. Do I always get to take the best of two rolls against spell resistance or is this also only against nonmythic target?

On a side note, I don't know if it's supposed to be capitalized or not, "arcane surge" only shows up once in the playtest document. Since this is Paizo and not White Wolf I'm guessing it isn't.


My initial feelings about Arcane Surge vs. Wild Arcana tended to be that Wild Arcana was by far the stronger. The more I've thought about it though the more I've come to think there is probably a decent balance between the two overall. I think Wild Surge starts out far stronger than Arcane Surge at lower tiers, but that the higher tier you get (barring some patches to other aspects of the system like save DCs and caster level vs. SR) the more it falls well behind of Arcane Surge.

First and foremost, Arcane Surge allows you to expend a mythic point in place of expending a spell slot. This can be used with mythic points to squeeze off literally dozens of spells at your highest levels at higher tiers, and can dramatically expend the daily casting amounts for a low level caster. At 5th level Arcane Surge is an extra 3rd level spell per day per use, while at 15th level it is an extra 8th level spell per day per use. Now obviously this assumes an ideal situation in which your highest level spell is always the applicable, but even if you do end up using it to power a lower level spell the ability is still quite powerful in its extension to the longevity of a character in the adventuring day.

Second, also applying across the board (regardless of whether or not you are facing higher level, lower level, or mythic opponents) Arcane Surge gives you your tier to your caster level checks against spell resistance while also letting you roll twice. At tier ten this is functionally (if I recall my old numbers on the effect of a reroll) a +14 bonus vs. SR. That is huge, as against CR/Tier appropriate challenges (e.g. foe CR + Mythic = your CR + Mythic) it means SR is completely rendered moot, while against CR vs. Tier appropriate challenges (e.g. higher CR balanced by your mythic tier) it means you (unlike the poor wild arcana caster) can actually breach spell resistance. Now it is possible (as you observe) that the intent is that this bonus vs. SR should only apply to nonmythic foes, but I strongly doubt it. I think the wording tends to indicate that the SR bonus is divorced from the saving throw portion, and thus always functions. If this is not the case then I completely agree the wording needs to be cleaned up, and further that this entire ability probably needs a rework.

Finally, and this is only the icing on the cake, it requires a reroll from any foe you throw a spell at that isn't mythic, which goes a long way toward increasing the odds that a CR > APL enemy will fail a save. It seems pretty clear that the function of this aspect of Arcane Surge, if not the intent, is to make it more competitive against challenges like a Level 12 / Tier 6 party vs. a CR 20 dragon.

Overall I'd say that Arcane Surge seems like it is probably the more powerful ability in terms of round by round combat against both mythic and non-mythic foes, with the only benefit that Wild Arcana has on it being its greatly added flexibility. In effect, you are offered a difficult choice between utility and power.

My thought would be that if Arcane Surge isn't living up for you, try seeing the effects of Arcane Surge in a higher level / higher tier playtest against CR appropriate foes and against foes with mythic templates. I'd suspect that absent some really specialized spell use Arcane Surge is the stronger option at higher levels.

All of that said, while I appreciate the dynamic between arcane surge and wild arcana, I am not convinced that these abilities do not need a rework on the whole. It does seem as though wild arcana is probably better in a campaign that focuses on fighting mythic opponents, while if the majority of your opponents are simply higher CR enemies arcane surge is almost required. For a time I'd thought you could simply offset the CR SR gap with mythic points, but in practice the extreme swing in such a solution and the fact that it drops off in its advancement and swings so much makes that solution impractical.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Peter Stewart wrote:
First and foremost, Arcane Surge allows you to expend a mythic point in place of expending a spell slot.

Wild arcana also lets you do this.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
First and foremost, Arcane Surge allows you to expend a mythic point in place of expending a spell slot.
Wild arcana also lets you do this.

Um.... yes? I don't think I ever denied that, though I could see how you might read my explanation of Arcane Surge's first point as an observation that Wild Surge does not.

Sovereign Court

AlgaeNymph wrote:


2. In addition, when using this ability you can roll twice and take the better result on any check made to overcome spell resistance, adding your archmage tier to the result.

#2's wording is unclear. Do I always get to take the best of two rolls against spell resistance or is this also only against nonmythic target?

My understanding is that it works on mythic targets, because it is IN ADDITION. The condition only applies on the first sentence, you don't carry it to the second one, if that was the case you would need to repeat it.

So Yes, it is useful. Why? Because a lot of mythic creatures have some kind of spell resistance, so it greatly increases the probability the creature targeted is affected by your spell.


I agree with Darkorin

also we have to keep in mind that it does not allow us to apply meta magic so while we can't buff those spells we can still throw them around

I ended up building a wizard archmage 20/10 while at work recently just for fun I spent probably an hour deciding which to go with it truly depends on play style and what your GM plans to throw at you

if I am going up against more mythic I am tempted to use wild because I can patch on meta magic and with the taking use meta magic spell for free
taking intensified (+1) empower (+2) maximize (+3) and Quicken (+4) I can basically apply these to my hearts content on my wild spells

I also picked up free casting of spells up to 3rd level

still it really depends on the build you make and whether you put greater value towards meta magic or breaking SR/multiple saves


See, I'm of the opposite mind, as I like Wild Arcana better. You can use metamagic which you can't when using Arcane Surge, and you can cast any arcane spell from your list, but with Arcane Surge it has to be something you have prepared for the day or for spontaneous casters, something that you know, meaning you have far fewer options as far as spells to choose from. It basically gives you more uses of the ones you already have for the day, whereas Wild Arcana gives you more of any spell. Wild Arcana will also give you a bonus to caster level, which can mean extra damage dice, pumped up saving throws, and a boost to overcoming spell resistance. Arcane Surge completely loses one of the two benefits it gives if your enemy is mythic, and while the spell resistance one is great, there are plenty of ways to pump up your ability to overcome it. I think Wild Arcana is just a lot more useful in a far more situations.

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