Simulacrum uses


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VRMH wrote:
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:

Just a question for anybody else, but has anyone found a decent use for the Lesser Simulacrum? Given that it's limited to half your CL in hit dice and it only lasts for a day per level. Oh yes, and no Spells or SLA!

I only ask because my Alchemist HAS to take the Alchemical Simulacrum Discovery if I want to take the Doppleganger and Greater Versions.

The Alchemical Simulacrum really only has one purpose that I can think of: a scorched earth tactic. Since it takes 24h to grow, you can get started on some ravenous beast and then get out of Dodge. Your "meat beast" will reap havoc while you're already long gone...

Quote:
Also, does the Alchemical version last for days or is it permanent?
Neither. It lasts one hour per Alchemist's level and so it's pretty much the most useless Discovery.

Sounds like a really pants version of Bladerunner!


Remember that these duplicates are not equipped with any magic items in a world where Items are often needed.


I wonder... could you make a simulacrum of an intelligent item? They're "creatures" once they can propel themselves, after all.


  • Spare Body Simulacrum - for you or your familiar, to Magic Jar into when your real body wouldn't suffice. Or when you just want to try something different.


  • VRMH wrote:
  • Spare Body Simulacrum - for you or your familiar, to Magic Jar into when your real body wouldn't suffice. Or when you just want to try something different.
  • That's a good one.

    Dark Archive

    Clone Trooper Simulacrum to guard your castle?


    Which creature would have the highest strength, yet low hitdice? And preferably doesn't eat or have other maintenance costs? 'cause That would be a nice Simulacrum to Magic Jar into for a Blood Money + Wish combo.
    The best I came up with is the Colossal Animated Object. 46 Str (so you need to add 5 points), a mere 13 HD and needs no food.

    Silver Crusade

    I just want to say that using your imagination to create whatever you want will not work unless your DM creates some stats for it.


    I had a crafting based alchemist, and I made a whole bunch of copies of myself. I also got the cooperative crafting feat. So at level 14 with a little bit of an investment, I was popping out +3 swords in eight hours.

    Also, for alchemists who like having a few more options, at level 14 and the infusion discovery you can make yourself a practically unlimited amount of third level or lower extracts and mutagens as each of your simulacrum can make the compliment of a 7th level alchemist every day. Have a dozen of them, and everyone in your party can have haste, fly, heroism, darkvision, invisibility, alchemical alocations, enlarge person, three or more times a day.

    We actually would send squads of alchemists around doing errands for us, and I made up a bunch of character sheets and handed them out to the whole group and we all played a simulacrum party for a night. It was good fun.

    All this without making the copy of a monster ever. I made an agreement with my GM that I wouldn't make copies of just anything. But it was well worth the investment.

    Otherwise the Collosal dire croc we ran into would have been useful for the lesser alchemical Simulacrum. Just buff it a bit and use it as a siege weapon for the day. Or the advanced giant T-Rex, that would have worked as well.


    Oterisk wrote:

    I had a crafting based alchemist, and I made a whole bunch of copies of myself. I also got the cooperative crafting feat. So at level 14 with a little bit of an investment, I was popping out +3 swords in eight hours.

    Also, for alchemists who like having a few more options, at level 14 and the infusion discovery you can make yourself a practically unlimited amount of third level or lower extracts and mutagens as each of your simulacrum can make the compliment of a 7th level alchemist every day. Have a dozen of them, and everyone in your party can have haste, fly, heroism, darkvision, invisibility, alchemical alocations, enlarge person, three or more times a day.

    We actually would send squads of alchemists around doing errands for us, and I made up a bunch of character sheets and handed them out to the whole group and we all played a simulacrum party for a night. It was good fun.

    All this without making the copy of a monster ever. I made an agreement with my GM that I wouldn't make copies of just anything. But it was well worth the investment.

    Otherwise the Collosal dire croc we ran into would have been useful for the lesser alchemical Simulacrum. Just buff it a bit and use it as a siege weapon for the day. Or the advanced giant T-Rex, that would have worked as well.

    That is awesome. Maybe better as an NPC opponent than as a PC. He could run a crime ring as the "One Man Gang."

    Or be the "One Man Alchemical Corp."


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    You can use simulacrums to manage an empire

    == list of empire management simulacra ==

    *messengers: you can put a lantern archon simulacrum (500 gp each) in every city, even in little villages if you feel generous and they can report whatever happens, for example if Timmy the little child gets hurt (they can teleport at will).

    cost: 500 gp per village or city

    *transport: a lantern archon can also transport items, 50 pounds every 2 rounds, that's a lot per day. Very useful to transport food for your marching army.

    cost: a single archon (500 gp) can transport 163 tonnes working 24 uninterrupted hours .

    *health care: you can use trumpet archons to teleport where the lanter archon asked for help and then he can cure the little Timmy.

    A trumpet archon simulacrum costs 3,500 gp and he can heal

    1° slot: 6 (4 cleric +2 int)
    2° slot: 4 (3 cleric +1 int)
    3° slot: 3 (2 cleric +1 int)
    4° slot: 2 (1 cleric +1 int)

    that's the equivalent of (6 * 1 * 1 * 10) + (4 * 2 * 3 * 10) + (3 * 5 * 3 * 10) + (2 * 7 * 4 * 10) = 1310 gp of spellcasting services from clerics per day, but not a single spell slot is wasted cause the trumpet archon teleports at every little Timmy in the country.

    cost: just a few (3,500 gp each) to heal your empire

    *food creators: your trumpet archons or solars can also purify food and drink, create water to drink or for the soil or create food and water.

    A single create food from a solar simulacrum lets you feed 30 humans for 24 hours.

    A solar simulacrum has 13 level 3 or higher spells, so he can feed 13*30 = 390 humans for a cost of 5,000 to create him, it's 12.8 gp per person to feed them forever.

    Who needs to cultivate the soil?? That's expensive and impractical.

    Just remember to transport the food with your archon lanterns.

    cost: 12.8 gp per person with no time limit

    *staff chargers to give immortality: (this requires some custom magic items) you can create 3 solar simulacra (5,000gp each), they can recharge 2x staves of restoration (cost: 4*7*400 + 50,000 = 61,200 each) and a staff of reincarnate (same cost) for a total of 183,600 in staves. Or you can create a staff of raise dead for 268,000 to replace the reincarnate staff.

    Staves let you pay for material components of spells just once when you create the staff (material component * 50) but after that you can cast this spell without paying the material component anymore, just by recharging the staff in the normal way (expending an appropriate spell slot).

    In this way you can reincarnate a person per day or resurrect a person per day (without negative levels) at no cost, just the fixed cost of the staves and the simulacrums.

    Reincarnation lets you revive people died of old age.

    A person per day, estimating a lifespan of 50 years, is enough for a population of about 18,000 (50*365).

    That service will cost you (61.200*3 + 268.000)/18.000 = about 25gp per person to resurrect them forever.

    cost: 25 gp per person with no time limit

    *soldiers: I suppose you need other simulacra to defend your little happy kingdom. Maybe someone with regeneration and high ability scores?

    *concubines: to make your citizens happy, succubus as dominatrixes or aasimar or similar for boring vanilla people. This will cost more gold since you need a lot of them.


    Holidays make me fall so far behind on threads. How'd I miss this one?

    Personally, I think one of the best targets for a Simulacrum is a Ghaele Azata (as Ashiel linked on the previous page). Damned good fighters, damned good Clerics, damned good SPA as well. The Ghaele is like the ultimate Clerical Gish creature (without getting to ridonculous power levels). A Simulacrum army of Ghaele's would be a terrifying sight. With the right spell you can do it all for free....


    dot


    Argento, from all that, the only thing I can imagine is that your hypothetical empire would face a population explosion. I assume simulcrums can't reproduce, so you had better get to the concubines sooner since you need to give the people some distraction now that they do not have to work to produce or buy food.

    It takes full advantage of the fact that many of those spells are designed to take care of the inconvenient aspects of life (and death) so that players can focus on adventure. This really brings up the question of why there aren't more clerics, since they can do many of those functions fairly easily.


    VRMH wrote:

    Which creature would have the highest strength, yet low hitdice? And preferably doesn't eat or have other maintenance costs? 'cause That would be a nice Simulacrum to Magic Jar into for a Blood Money + Wish combo.

    The best I came up with is the Colossal Animated Object. 46 Str (so you need to add 5 points), a mere 13 HD and needs no food.

    Generally the best HD to power ratio is an outsider, with some magical beasts also doing good. Humanoids too, but their unique nature makes them difficult to crab a clone of and impossible to make undead from.

    Tels wrote:
    With the right spell you can do it all for free....

    Doesn't work. "12 hours" casting time doesn't get along well with "Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component".


    Maybe but if they were wearing a Ring of Continuation while casting blood money, then it may work.


    Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    deuxhero wrote:
    Doesn't work. "12 hours" casting time doesn't get along well with "Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component".

    That's not really provable.

    "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process."

    Who's to say that it isn't annihilated at the start of casting prior to turning back into blood? All you need do is start casting simulacrum right after blood money.


    Ravingdork wrote:
    deuxhero wrote:
    Doesn't work. "12 hours" casting time doesn't get along well with "Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component".

    That's not really provable.

    "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process."

    Who's to say that it isn't annihilated at the start of casting prior to turning back into blood? All you need do is start casting simulacrum right after blood money.

    Ravingdork has it right. I've long speculated that having your character be in the process of 'casting a spell', means that you qualify as far the the "cast a spell in the same round" clause goes.

    I had no indication however, of when a material component can be said to be 'in use' as it were, so I asked JJ, and he had this to say:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    When you cast blood money, you do so with a swift action. You create the needed components, and must then IMMEDIATELY (in the same round) cast the spell you want to use those components with. You don't need to finish casting the spell in the same round, though; once you start casting the spell, the components (and the prepared spell itself) are committed and used.

    The quote can be found on this page. Guess now is as good a time as ever to ask how I make it so a link insta-focusses on the particular post I wish to link to?

    I guess this also answers the age old question if a rogue can pickpocket the material components from a caster who's casting a long casting-time spell :)

    Cheers mates.

    -Nearyn


    Or have someone else cast blood money at the right moment. Unless your GM decides that the material component needs to cook for a while, I'd think that you can just have someone else add it when needed.


    Nearyn wrote:
    Ravingdork wrote:
    deuxhero wrote:
    Doesn't work. "12 hours" casting time doesn't get along well with "Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component".

    That's not really provable.

    "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process."

    Who's to say that it isn't annihilated at the start of casting prior to turning back into blood? All you need do is start casting simulacrum right after blood money.

    Ravingdork has it right. I've long speculated that having your character be in the process of 'casting a spell', means that you qualify as far the the "cast a spell in the same round" clause goes.

    I had no indication however, of when a material component can be said to be 'in use' as it were, so I asked JJ, and he had this to say:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    When you cast blood money, you do so with a swift action. You create the needed components, and must then IMMEDIATELY (in the same round) cast the spell you want to use those components with. You don't need to finish casting the spell in the same round, though; once you start casting the spell, the components (and the prepared spell itself) are committed and used.

    The quote can be found on this page. Guess now is as good a time as ever to ask how I make it so a link insta-focusses on the particular post I wish to link to?

    I guess this also answers the age old question if a rogue can pickpocket the material components from a caster who's casting a long casting-time spell :)

    Cheers mates.

    -Nearyn

    Right next to the Flag/FAQ/Quote/Reply option is the date/time of how old ago the posting was made. Click on the date/time and it will reload the page centered on that particular post; you can link to that post by copying the URL. It should say something like Simulacrum-uses#71 to indicate the 71st post in the Simulacrum Uses thread.


    Tels wrote:
    Right next to the Flag/FAQ/Quote/Reply option is the date/time of how old ago the posting was made. Click on the date/time and it will reload the page centered on that particular post; you can link to...

    Thanks alot mate :)

    Dark Archive

    I made a Sim of Karzoug, he is a magic crafting fool for me.


    For the undead using cleric or savoy necromancer, simulacrum allows you to have a near unlimited amount of skeletons and zombies at your disposal. No more tiring castings of control and command undead, just set your snowman necro-clone to work and enjoy your optimal and friendly society. Free of needless labor costs...

    ...

    Until you die...

    WHICH IS TOTALLY UNLIKELY DONT WORRY ABOUT IT

    Dark Archive

    Less of a problem if you are already a Lich. I was trying to think of someone good and high level to make a simulacrum of in Golaron. Can;t think of many good who have been statted up.


    Upon getting the Core Rulebook, oh so many years ago, one of the very first things I house ruled was that Simulacrum does require a piece of the creature to be copied. Still makes it an immensely useful and abusable spell, but does put the brakes on some game ending things like - hey, lets just sim the end boss monster and find out his evil plans...because why wouldn't you (not considering meta-game considerations like, "whelp, there goes another AP down the drain").

    Now, once you require a piece of the creature as a spell component, this can also lead to some reflection on just who/what you want to sim. In my campaign, the best sims are the ones of yourself, or also of creatures not likely to have lots of allies (or infinite numbers of allies - like Outsiders might have). Once word gets out that you are building Solars/Pit Fiends/Efreeti wish machines, you ARE going to get a visit from some appropriate representatives. At a CR level you will not be able to survive. As an object lesson to the next wizard who gets a little too cute with abusing the spell.

    If we believe that a sim has some degree of knowledge, etc, you best make sure you "program" it - a Solar without explicit instructions on what he can/cannot do WILL follow your every order. But the second you aren't looking, he's going to find a way to tattle on you to the Upper Planes...and then you'll be getting that aforementioned visit...

    But Crafting Sims are a fine use for the spell. And scouts. Magical firepower platforms, sure. But, if you want to maintain some versimilitude to your campaign world, you best think about how the world is going to look once Sim-usage becomes popular. What's good for the PC's is also good for the BBEG, I always say...

    Of course, the availability of ruby dust could slow things down. Considering the value/cost, etc. My PC's can't just assume that Bob's Jewelry shop in Backwater Berg is going to have 5000 gp worth of rubies. Unusual material components should NOT be readily available. And if you go nuts with Simulacra, why wouldn't governments clamp down and declare rubies to be a "strategic resource" and proceed to corner the market. And a mine that produces rubies? Talk about a target worth taking (and that would be extremely well protected)! I'm sure there may be other magical means around this, but still.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when you add the Alchemist into the mix. Their sims are much, much cheaper to build - and only require unnamed reagents. Perhaps you can limit those too, just like ruby dust.

    Edit: Of course, Blood Money is the most logical way around the Ruby issue, as has been mentioned. But, that spell came out of the Rise of the Runelords - so, what if the events/AP never happened? Would you make that spell available to your PC's anyways?

    Shadow Lodge

    I am planning a Clone Master alchemist who is basically a pimp; he provides permanent simulacrums depending on the clients tastes. Lesser ones are samples.


    Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
    I am planning a Clone Master alchemist who is basically a pimp; he provides permanent simulacrums depending on the clients tastes. Lesser ones are samples.

    Try sims of Dopplegangers - they should be able to read your client's minds for their ideal companion, and then provide just what the client wants...as well as perusing their thoughts for other tidbits of information that they could report back to you..

    Pimp and Spymaster rolled into one...


    I rather like some of the more mundane uses for this spell to which an npc might put it to work. I could see a prosperous nation with more money than sense (not an uncommon sight in a fantasy setting) doing any of these...

    1) Rebuild a livestock population with a few illusory additions to the breeding pool. Don't think too hard about this one, but the spell doesn't impose any restrictions that would suggest infertility.

    2) Picture perfect landscaping. Wouldn't it be nice if every street corner had a tree just like that one? Well now it can, and as an added bonus, the copies won't even grow if you define that as gaining HD.

    3) Ever have lascivious interest in someone that didn't reciprocate? Don't worry about it. That shady fellow down the street knows a place where a perfectly docile copy can be purchased or rented.

    4) The petting zoo. Children of all ages will delight in this wholesome venue, where they can pet baby animals that never grow up and thrill to see flawless daredevil performances in which you are never actually in any danger.

    5) Entrapment. Okay sure, your plan to replace the king will inevitably be found out in due course. But if you just want to frame the jerk that ran off with your wife, stole your horse and shot your dog? Who's to say that 500 GP isn't money well spent when it lets you see someone you hate convicted of a crime they didn't commit?

    6) Reparations. Bob has murdered Joe, depriving Joe's wife Jane of his livelihood. The city fines Bob for the price of a simulacra. Jane has the next best thing to her husband back (some would argue better, since he'll put the toilet seat down).

    On the more exploitative side, there's always this one...
    The Saboteur -- Simulacra Pugwampi, with or without its spell-like abilities (I'd argue that a 1/2 HD simulacra would still have them), it's also a stealthy, intelligent trap-spotter, snare-builder and of course, bad luck magnet.


    Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    James has gone over this spell before in great depth (in no small part due to my own prodding). You can find a great many clarifications in this simulacrum thread here.

    For starters, you can't have incorporeal sims and they DO have to eat if the base creature does. That means an army of crafting sims could be a great drain on local resources.


    VRMH wrote:

    Which creature would have the highest strength, yet low hitdice? And preferably doesn't eat or have other maintenance costs? 'cause That would be a nice Simulacrum to Magic Jar into for a Blood Money + Wish combo.

    The best I came up with is the Colossal Animated Object. 46 Str (so you need to add 5 points), a mere 13 HD and needs no food.

    Because Simulacrum can't be healed this would not work that well.


    Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    VRMH wrote:

    Which creature would have the highest strength, yet low hitdice? And preferably doesn't eat or have other maintenance costs? 'cause That would be a nice Simulacrum to Magic Jar into for a Blood Money + Wish combo.

    The best I came up with is the Colossal Animated Object. 46 Str (so you need to add 5 points), a mere 13 HD and needs no food.

    Yeah, but then you are a colossal animated object, it's kind of difficult to go adventuring in various areas (such as caves, cities, Elven treetops, and the like). You can return your form to humanoid with alter self and/or a greater had of disguise, but then you suffer a reduction in strength based on your size.

    If you want to walk around as a high strength humanoid, you'd be hard pressed to do better than mammoth, which when jar'd and altered gives you a strength of 28 (down from 34 in mammoth form) while still letting you adventure like a typical humanoid (and without all the fear from the people around you).

    Best part? A mammoth only costs 2,000gp on the open market and can be healed, unlike your 6,500gp simulacrum construct.


    Ravingdork wrote:

    If you want to walk around as a high strength humanoid, you'd be hard pressed to do better than mammoth, which when jar'd and altered gives you a strength of 28 (down from 34 in mammoth form) while still letting you adventure like a typical humanoid (and without all the fear from the people around you).

    Best part? A mammoth only costs 2,000gp on the open market and can be healed, unlike your 6,500gp simulacrum construct.

    You are talking about a mastodon, right? Mammoths have a strength of 33 and aren't on the list of animals for purchase.

    But that's still brilliant. I've got a sorcerer now who has blood money. Using Magic Jar to go into the mammoth, using potions of Alter Self (a little cheaper since I don't need a ton of time in human form) and a Bull's strength and I have a working strength of 32. That's quite the savings for the Permanency spells I want to cast. Then I tap myself with a wand of lesser Restoration (via the paladin spell) a couple times, limited wish a full fix of the Str damage, and go again.

    Sigh. But then my DM will have someone cast greater dispel magic on me and it would all be gone. Ah it would be fun while it lasted...

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