Lead Designer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey there Everybody,
I just thought I would take a quick moment to post a general update on the state of the playtest and to give everyone an idea about where we are at in the process.
At the current time, I am quite pleased with the results of the playtest. There have been a number of issues that have been pointed out and we are taking a look at those rules as we develop this book. I have been quite happy with the enthusiasm and level of interaction I am seeing amongst the playtesting groups.
At this time, it is not within our plan to put out a revised pdf with rules changes. However, I think you will see a post or two from me in the coming weeks with some rules revisions. We have made a number of decisions about a number of issues and I want to get those out to the playtesters for some additional feedback. When those posts go up, they will be in this forum, stickied, with the title "UPDATES", so keep an eye out.
I also want to take a moment to thank all of you for remaining civil and polite to your fellow posters. I know that these sorts of discussions get heated, and with only a few exceptions, things have remained calm and productive.
All that said, I do have a few requests. Please make sure that you are posting your threads in the correct forum and that there is not already a thread that covers the topic. We have had some duplication of questions and a number of threads in the wrong forums. I will move these threads without notice in the future. In addition, the feedback has been a bit light on a variety of topics, and I would like to see some more playtesting of the Marshal and Guardian, as well as some more work done looking at the feats, spells, and magic items. No need to go out of your way, but if you happen to notice anything about these rules, make sure to post them.
Thanks again for helping us make Mythic Adventures a great addition to the Pathfinder line. I'll see you around the boards.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
|
Design Manager
|
Jason, thanks so much for keeping us all updated! I think one of the reason you've seen less feedback on the Marshal and Guardian is because people tend to dwell on the negative and those two paths have very little of the negative about them! I'll try to ensure that both myself and my players comment on the things we enjoy equally as much as the errors we find. Thanks again!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jason, thanks for the update and the hard work. I know I've had some questions about Marshals and Guardians, but some of those are corner cases like mixing hero points or Surprise Rounds and Sudden Block.
Overall the Marshal/Bard combo is VERY effective. Sudden Block for the Guardian has saved the player gloriously already. My Guardian player hasn't taken anything (I think) at Tier 1 that can "guard" an ally...in fact I am not sure if there is much for the initial tier. I will have to check the playtest on that, but I feel that should be a focus earlier in the Guardian tier.
**EDIT**
I feel like the Guardian path abilities would seem a little more Guardian-like if Absorb Blow or Sudden Block allowed you to use it when one of those attacks targets an adjacent ally at low tiers and any ally within reach at higher tiers.
[...]In addition, the feedback has been a bit light on a variety of topics, and I would like to see some more playtesting of the Marshal and Guardian, as well as some more work done looking at the feats, spells, and magic items. [...]
We won't play test the Mythic rules since we are taking a break from Pathfinder, so sorry can't help you with actual play test feedback.
What I will do is offer you some pure theorycrafting.
I think lot of players will look The Guardian and the Marshal and decide they are not appealing enough. I don't have any opinion on power or balance, but I fear a lot of people will find them too dull. Marshal is the buff class and Guardian is the protection class. Both of them are not offensive enough. The Guardian has Sweeping Strike, but that pretty much it.
Edit:
Again, I'm not saying they classes aren't balance I'm just pointing out they 'look' dull when you read them. I think there is a risk that Bards, Paladins, Cavaliers, etc will still pick the Champion path since every player wants to shine once in awhile. From my experience the look/feel of a class is important. Most of the time the reason a player picks a class is an emotional one, not mathematical one. If class A looks dull and class B looks fun, the player will pick class B.
errata?
Arcane Strike (Mythic) probably needs errata (or perhaps my English is bad):
Benefit: Whenever you use Arcane Strike to imbue your weapons, they gain an additional +1 bonus to attack and damage.
The text seam to imply that Arcane Strike gives a bonus to attack and damage, since it says " additional +1 bonus". Arcane Strike only gives a bonus to damage.
Thank you for the update, Jason. I'm looking forward to the updates now that I actually have players that are interested in testing.
|
Design Manager
|
[...]In addition, the feedback has been a bit light on a variety of topics, and I would like to see some more playtesting of the Marshal and Guardian, as well as some more work done looking at the feats, spells, and magic items. [...]I think lot of players will look The Guardian and the Marshal and decide they are not appealing enough. I don't have any opinion on power or balance, but I fear a lot of people will find them too dull. Marshal is the buff class and Guardian is the protection class. Both of them are not offensive enough. The Guardian has Sweeping Strike, but that pretty much it.
I've found the exact opposite with my group, the Marshal and Guardian have been the ones everyones been wanting to play. I actually ended up having to have the party roll-off to see who would get those paths and who needed to select a different one. The survivability of the Guardian is unrivaled, something they all appreciate, and the marshal gives everyone some great leadership abilities and flavor. The Marshal is a particular favorite of our fighter, who feels like it adds a whole extra dimension to his character without taking away from his core playstyle.
@Ssalarn
As I said, I only stated my opinions.
JB said he needs more feedback on the Marshal and the Guardian. I guess that is probably because people haven't posted enough feedback on these two paths. That's probably because they have played other paths and posted the feedback of those paths instead. The reason for that? I guess probably because they preferred to play other paths than the Marshal and the Guardian. Why? Other paths perhaps look more sexy, or perhaps more fun, or less dull?
All players and gaming groups have their style, but my experience is that people generally don't like to play support characters, at least not if they don't get to shine once in awhile ("Shine" as in doing something offensive). Just like most bard builds on these forums are a mix of a support and damage dealing (archer or a melee dude with buffs). Same reason why people seldom play dedicated healers (healing concept not working also helps).
Nice that your gaming group like the Marshal and the Guardian. Have you or your GM posted any play test experience? Would be interesting to read since I love playing bard. Also helpful to JB.
Zark, out of the 3 encounters (3rd is wrapping up) that I'm PbP'ing down in the Adventure Discussion, the Marshal/Bard is SUPREMELY effective. Take a look here for the synopsis of each encounter. The Rally and Advance at Tier 1 and levels 1 & 2 are absolutely making fluff out of the encounters. In fact, and I need to talk with my player who is playing this combo, but I have a feeling that people will want those 2 abilities rather than some of the specialty abilities offered to the Marshal (at lower Tiers anyway). Coupled with the Bard's spell list and Inspire...deadly good for the group.
The Guardian's Sudden Block has also been extremely good for the Monk/Guardian. Negated some crit confirmation and also the need for saving vs. poisons/diseases/etc.
I can see the Champion and Archmage looking sexy in the book and as you imagine high tier/high level combos, but what I am seeing so far is the Marshall and Guardian abilities as being the most useful and even "mythic" at low level and low tier.
I'm the player in Pendin's playtest, and I have to say - you're both right.
The Marshal is a VERY effective buffer/support character - parties with one are much more effective than without, at least at lower levels. But I still don't see too many people choosing the role, because of Zark's point. Few players see the fun in playing a character with little personal power - someone who is so much more effective taking no individual actions. PF players tend to want to take a personal role in the proceedings - as proof, how many 'blaster' wizard have you seen, despite the fact that its much less effective than other roles?
My observations (again, we've only played lower level/tier):
1) Mythic Rally and Advance, as Pendin indicate, rock. But in a group with an archmage who has +11 "to hit" and can do 20 points of damage in melee, and an indestructible monk, I don't feel they're overpowered. Its just making everyone else better instead of yourself.
2) In my opinion, those are the clear highlights of the Marshal - the rest of the abilities are neat, but unless I'm missing something, nothing else comes close - especially compared to higher tier abilities of the other paths. So it seems very much a "front-loaded" path - with the efficacy becoming less and less significant as the party advances in level/tier. Or, this will be the 'dip' path for everyone.
3) As stated earlier, this is not a shiny toy like the other paths - so, IMHO, it could use some 'inducement' to draw people to it; kind of teh way they beefed Cleric up so much in 3.5 so that people would play healers.
|
I can see the Champion and Archmage looking sexy in the book and as you imagine high tier/high level combos, but what I am seeing so far is the Marshall and Guardian abilities as being the most useful and even "mythic" at low level and low tier.
That may be true, but when you get to higher levels/tier and when you have better things to do, the marshall at least become less and less attractive.
The ability to give a move action to your allies? Well... they can already make a full attack + a move action...
And what combo are you talking about??? You can't use Rally and Advance in the same round, they both take a swift action.
I meant Marshal/Bard combo not Rally and Advance combo :). Thanks Mari, that's what I was trying to say but you said it better!
Edit...
This just happened in my PbP playtest...
Tom sends another fire bolt at the top ghoul.
Ranged touch 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (2) + 2 = 4
Mythic Rally 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22
Crit 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (18) + 2 = 20
Fire damage 1d6 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3
3x2=6 total fire damage
(Thanks Marigold)
Thanks to Rally a clerics firebolt went from dud to Crit. It's happened a couple of times already. When I get a chance to play rather than GM I know I am going to really consider the Marshal.
Actually, from what I can tell on these boards, Marshal and Guardian are very popular choices. In my group, Guardian is looking pretty popular to the point where half my group may be dual-pathing into it.
The reason there may not be as much feedback is because most feedback tends to be of the critical variety and there's not too many bad things to say about those Paths. The biggest piece of feedback relating to this seems to be that the Guardian may be too good. Or at least, some of the options provided by the Guardian are almost a requirement to stay competitive with the greater challenges presented to Mythic characters.
If there are no Guardians in the group, that's fine. The GM can tailor an encounter to match the group as per usual. But if there is a Guardian in the group you start to get a dichotomy where encounters are either challenging to the rest of the group but too easy for the Guardian, or challenging to the Guardian but lethal for the rest of the group. So the rest of the group starts looking at Guardian dual-Path to maintain equilibrium.
Epic Meepo and a few others have already noted this in their playtests. I've not come across it yet in a big way, but tonight I'm playtesting a higher Level/Tier combo than my last few sessions so I'll see if it becomes more prominent then.
|
Design Manager
|
Actually, from what I can tell on these boards, Marshal and Guardian are very popular choices. In my group, Guardian is looking pretty popular to the point where half my group may be dual-pathing into it.
The reason there may not be as much feedback is because most feedback tends to be of the critical variety and there's not too many bad things to say about those Paths. The biggest piece of feedback relating to this seems to be that the Guardian may be too good. Or at least, some of the options provided by the Guardian are almost a requirement to stay competitive with the greater challenges presented to Mythic characters.
If there are no Guardians in the group, that's fine. The GM can tailor an encounter to match the group as per usual. But if there is a Guardian in the group you start to get a dichotomy where encounters are either challenging to the rest of the group but too easy for the Guardian, or challenging to the Guardian but lethal for the rest of the group. So the rest of the group starts looking at Guardian dual-Path to maintain equilibrium.
I've noticed this as well, especially at lower levels of play.
|
|
I meant Marshal/Bard combo not Rally and Advance combo :). Thanks Mari, that's what I was trying to say but you said it better!
Edit...
This just happened in my PbP playtest...
Tom sends another fire bolt at the top ghoul.
Ranged touch 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (2) + 2 = 4
Mythic Rally 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22
Crit 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (18) + 2 = 20
Fire damage 1d6 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3
3x2=6 total fire damage
(Thanks Marigold)Thanks to Rally a clerics firebolt went from dud to Crit. It's happened a couple of times already. When I get a chance to play rather than GM I know I am going to really consider the Marshal.
That 'ability' had been out since the APG. It's called a Hero Point. It didn't have any specific name like Rally, but it's one of many things a hero point can do, and only requires one person and no trials. I gotta say do far I'm in the camp that doesn't see anything mythic about these rules.
But can the Hero Point grant that reroll to all allies within 30 ft?
@Pendin Fust:
Edit:
You only crit on a natural roll of 20. Adding your bonuses to the results of the roll to get 20 is not the same as a "natural" result of 20.
Sleep is a 1 round action, if an additional move action lets you cast a 1 round spell on your turn is unclear, but I doubt it. The extra move action is mostly useful for characters with quicken channeling or bards that can activate bardic performance as a move action.
As for the move + full attack ability. This is mostly something melee dudes wants and as pointed out there are other ways of getting it. Champions can get them at level 1.
Granting a Mythic tier to a level 1 party (or to any low level party) will make them shine regardless of path. I mean, there is a difference between granting a level 1, 6, 11 or 20 char a Mythic tier.
@Edit:
The Block Knight, Ssalarn and Epic Meepo: Yes, it is obviously tempting to dip into the Guardian - at least at lower levels, but that doesn't invalidate my points, especially not at higher levels. True, Sudden Block and Absorb Blow are powerful abilities, but overall I think the Guardian and Marshal paths looks unsexy. Guardian vs. Champion? Champion with possibly one tier dip into Guardian. Marshal is even less appealing.
It's funny. For once the non magic classes get some advantages the others don't. At higher levels Bards, Paladins, inquisitors, the Magus and full casters will constantly rely on swift actions. Paladins, Bards, Inquisitors and the Magus pretty much do it all the time even at lower levels. I guess even the Barbarian and some monks will suffer too, but the fighter and the rogues don't use any swift actions so they get to use their mythic toys without interference from class abilities.
Jason, one thought for Sudden Block. It almost seems too good at some points, negating ability damage or drain along with the regular damage. in cases like incorporeals or other creatures with ability damage/drain, could there be a stipulation that the save still needs to be made. I've been describing the monk/guardian's Sudden Block as dodging but the text makes me feel like its more of something like catching the attack.
One last note.. this thread is not the place to post up your questions or issues.. feel free to comment on the substance of this post, but if you as a rules question or post feedback here, it will get moved. Put those issues in their proper forum.
Thanks
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Sorry Jason, I missed this post of yours. Please feel free to delete my posts.