Design Manager
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The MAD characters are more likely to make effective usage of Dual Focus, where SAD characters will likely not recieve as much benefit.
As Mythic Power is a very valuable resource, this give an advantage to MAD characters in campaigns with multiple encounters per adventuring day.
But now you're burning a mythic feat that the SAD character can spend on something else. It really doesn't seem to equate from what I can see. If I'm adding a 16(+3) to my 16(+3), and the wizards rolling along with his 22(+6), I've spent a feat just to catch up, where as his feat has either added new utility or widened the gap even further.
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Hey, I just thought of a New Mythic Flaw:
You're Mad
Wow, you're a Mad class, eh? Tough nookies for you, I say. You don't really need another mythic flaw. Enjoy being the lesser of all things already!
One possible solution, although it's a bit strange, is to actually quantify that certain classes automatically gain Dual Focus as a bonus feat, but leave it an optional feat for other classes? Effectively, this is a patch in the mythic rules.
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By the time the wizard has a 22 int, you should have at least 18/18 in your primary stats. Smaller upgrades to multiple stats use less wealth than maximizing a single stat.
For example, I can get +2 str & +2 wis for 8,000. The wizard has to pay 16,000 for +4 int.
As for the save DC's, a caster focusing on a sigle stat may have higer DC's, but he also has lower saves. The MAD character is going to be more likely to have stat bonuses to all saves. The trade-off is glass cannon vs durability.
Yeah, SAD characters get such a boon with this. For example, one of my players in the play test made a STR based Oracle; who easily reached 30 STR before buffs. On the other hands, a non-optimized Rogue pumped Dex, Cha, and Wis... Needless to say his highest stats are no where near that.
I'm not sure what can be done though, this has always been a core imbalance between these classes to begin with so unless you force a Mythic character to boost a different stat I don't know what you can do.
I'd like it better if the mythic rules gave everyone Dual Focus for free. Are you playing a min-maxed caster with one stat raised through the roof? Cool. You're already rewarded by the core rules for being min-maxed. Are you playing a more balanced character dependent upon multiple stats? Cool. You're now rewarded by the mythic rules for having a few pretty good stats instead of one ridiculous one. Every stat distribution has its own rewards. Everyone wins.
... aaaaaaaaaaaaand this is now part of all of our mythic games, I think.
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Design Manager
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By the time the wizard has a 22 int, you should have at least 18/18 in your primary stats. Smaller upgrades to multiple stats use less wealth than maximizing a single stat.
For example, I can get +2 str & +2 wis for 8,000. The wizard has to pay 16,000 for +4 int.
As for the save DC's, a caster focusing on a sigle stat may have higer DC's, but he also has lower saves. The MAD character is going to be more likely to have stat bonuses to all saves. The trade-off is glass cannon vs durability.
A level one elf wizard with a single Mythic tier could easily have a 22 INT.... And given the bonus HP and increased durability granted by the Mythic rules, there's no he reason he shouldn't.
OK... quick review.
whats MAD
whats SAD
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OK... quick review.
whats MAD
whats SAD
Oooh! You're one of the one in 10,000!
MAD is Multi-Abilitiy-Dependant; meaning you have multiple abilities scores you need to be effective. Monks are a good example since they need several stats(STR, DEX, CON, WIS, maybe INT too) to be effective.
SAD is the single attribute dependent version. You only need one stat to be great, every other stat is a secondary. A good example is a Fighter who two hands an just maximizes the heck out of his STR. Sure, he probably needs some con, but he can get by KILLING EVERYTHING by just boosting his STR and STR alone.
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too much time in the military.
every time I see MAD I think it means Mutually Assured Destruction and can only equate that in game to glass cannon type characters.
now I know.... and knowing is half the battle.
(Dual Path seems like a pretty good feet for just about anybody once you take magic items into account.)
This has been my experience drafting Mythic characters. Dual Focus seems to be way too good, to the point at which even the most absurdly feat-taxed characters I've built still take it very early. Your second-highest stat is almost assured to be a +2, which alone is worth the feat, but it continues to scale as you gain levels and equip better stat-boosting items. That ends up as way too much for a single feat, and effectively a mandatory pick.
I'm of two opinions: either mythic points should be made entirely independent of your attributes, or dual focus should be automatic for all Mythic characters.
I'm of two opinions: either mythic points should be made entirely independent of your attributes, or dual focus should be automatic for all Mythic characters.
I... Agree.
I'm reminded of how Force Points were implemented in Saga Edition Star Wars and much of their funtion is similar to Mythic Points(spend to enchance abilities with an added die, expended to use certain abilities). In that game, they were built in from the core and scaled off of class type and half total character level.
I wouldn't be surpised if Mythic points were made to scale this way also; so that the number of Mythic Points is ultimately more standardized & things like Dual Focus aren't needed to catch up with SAD classes.
I'd like it better if the mythic rules gave everyone Dual Focus for free. Are you playing a min-maxed caster with one stat raised through the roof? Cool. You're already rewarded by the core rules for being min-maxed. Are you playing a more balanced character dependent upon multiple stats? Cool. You're now rewarded by the mythic rules for having a few pretty good stats instead of one ridiculous one. Every stat distribution has its own rewards. Everyone wins.
Seems like a nice patch over the current rules, but I continue to think that splitting mythic uses from ability scores is probably more feasible. Among other things it would make the impact of Mythic more level across the board, regardless of ability scores, point buy, ect. As it stands it seems likely that the impact of Mythic is significantly enhanced by high point buys or rolling methods.
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Design Manager
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I'd like it better if the mythic rules gave everyone Dual Focus for free. Are you playing a min-maxed caster with one stat raised through the roof? Cool. You're already rewarded by the core rules for being min-maxed. Are you playing a more balanced character dependent upon multiple stats? Cool. You're now rewarded by the mythic rules for having a few pretty good stats instead of one ridiculous one. Every stat distribution has its own rewards. Everyone wins.Seems like a nice patch over the current rules, but I continue to think that splitting mythic uses from ability scores is probably more feasible. Among other things it would make the impact of Mythic more level across the board, regardless of ability scores, point buy, ect. As it stands it seems likely that the impact of Mythic is significantly enhanced by high point buys or rolling methods.
Have to agree with you here. I think a formula going off level/tier would be better (4+ Mythic Tier level times per day?)
I like the free dual focus idea. It seems like a fairer way of doing it. Mythic power based on scores feels right to me, but I dislike the way dual focus is so much better with better rolls or higher point buy.
I have an ideal for mythic how about you use the lowest stat instead of the highest. fewer point (maybe give more from other non stat stuff) but then it would cut back on min maxin a bit too.
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I have an ideal for mythic how about you use the lowest stat instead of the highest. fewer point (maybe give more from other non stat stuff) but then it would cut back on min maxin a bit too.
My concern with such an approach would be that it cuts back on legitimate dump stats - those that are dumped with purpose for character reasons, increases mediocrity across the board (make sure all your stats are at least decent), still favors SAD characters (e.g. they can afford to have 1 good score and 5 ok, vs. requiring multiple good stats that requires a steeper trade off for MAD characters), and is influenced greatly by the point buy / rolling method used (higher point buy even by a few points under such a system might swing dramatically).
I cannot see such a change influencing the system positively in any way. It doesn't seem to address any of the concerns anyone has raised, though I welcome evidence to the contrary.
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Well my thought was mythic characters should be at least OK all around. i mean even Hercules wasn't an idiot he wasn't terribly personable but i wouldn't say he had penalties. pretty well all the Greek heroes were good all around maybe not PHENOMINAL all around but not morons or completely socially lacking.
so now why am I going to reward dump stats? Why again does your mythic hero have a 6 charisma? doesn't seem terribly mythic. really i think the mythic stat bonuses should be to lower stats make the character better all around instead of bumping str form a 22 to a 24 etc.
I don't think you can get rid of sad and mad without reworking the system frankly. i suspose you could get rid of them being based on stats.
Well my thought was mythic characters should be at least OK all around. i mean even Hercules wasn't an idiot he wasn't terribly personable but i wouldn't say he had penalties. pretty well all the Greek heroes were good all around maybe not PHENOMINAL all around but not morons or completely socially lacking.
so now why am I going to reward dump stats? Why again does your mythic hero have a 6 charisma? doesn't seem terribly mythic. really i think the mythic stat bonuses should be to lower stats make the character better all around instead of bumping str form a 22 to a 24 etc.
I don't think you can get rid of sad and mad without reworking the system frankly. i suspose you could get rid of them being based on stats.
Why is there anything wrong with a character with 6 Charisma?
now try asking me that again with a 6 charisma (nothing wrong with car like that mythic hero however seems uncommon)
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Simplest solution in my mind is have each mythic tier grant +1 bonus to all ability scores at each level.
Now SAD characters and MAD characters benefit relatively evenly since all your scores are getting powered up.
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The problem with basing it on a low stat is that dictates what you must do with all your stats. All your stats must be at least this high if you're to be any good.
The high stat system only cares about one stat. You can spread the rest of your points around how you like.
Spreading points evenly is indeed non-optimal, but if you have to suck as a normal character to get the most out of mythic, only shameless min/maxing will get the best results out of that difficult balance.
As it is, people can look at the table and say "Ah, so if I have superhuman strength, I'm more mythic, like Hercules!" In other words, it lines up with the fluff of mythic characters, it's intuitive and it's simple.
Also, the comment about asking you that with 6 charisma completely misses the point.
We all understand that a 6 in charisma is a flaw. He was asking you what's wrong with a flawed hero.
Hercules may not have been dumb, but are you telling me Achilles was wise? Do you suggest Ulysses' mythic power should be defined by his unremarkable strength, rather than the intelligence and charisma his whole epic story is about?
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Simplest solution in my mind is have each mythic tier grant +1 bonus to all ability scores at each level.
Now SAD characters and MAD characters benefit relatively evenly since all your scores are getting powered up.
I had thought of that... the main problem with that is that it might get to the point of breaking a specific class... specifically most Paladins.
In fact paladins are a very big problem in mythic overall...
Charisma is an attack stat for them, so is strength
Charisma is a saving throw stat for them, so are con, dex, and wis
Charisma is a AC stat for them, so is Dex.
Sure a couple of these are only relevant while smiting but all the same it does make the saving throws of paladins go kinda crazy.
Paladins, monks, and anyone receiving ability score modifiers to any core attribute (to hit, AC, saves) present a problem with any form of broad ability score advancement.
That said, their impact more more muted than that of unbalanced score advancement (e.g. focused on one score). Ultimately it is easier to manage paladins and monks who might slip slightly higher than they should be than everyone else moving way ahead in only one area. At least in my experience. There is a reason for my own epic progression I adopted a universal advancement of +1 to all scores every 4 levels instead of +1 to one score.
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That issue is a bit more exacerbated then your might be letting on Peter.
Every class except Paladin and Magus gets the following from +1 to all attributes at each tier:
+5 to every saving throw by tier 10
+5 to melee attacks and damage by tier 10
+5 to ranged attacks and sometimes damage by tier 10
+5 to initiative beyond Mythic features
+5 to AC by tier 10 (except Monk which gets +10)
+5 to all DCs for effects created by that character by tier 10
Paladin however gets the following
+10 to every saving throw (+5 while in an antimagic field) by tier 10
+5 to melee attacks (and an additional +5 while smiting) and damage by tier 10
+5 to ranged attacks (and an additional +5 while smiting)and sometimes damage) by tier 10
+5 to initiative beyond Mythic features.
+5 to AC (and an additional +5 deflection bonus while smiting) by tier 10
+5 to all DCs for effects created by this paladin by tier 10
Maguses get a few of the above abilities but this generally balanced out-ish by the fact that they have to use swift actions to get the extra +5 from their maguses arcana EXCEPT for the Kensai which gets the following:
+10 initiative
+10 to AC
+5 to critical threat checks.
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That's the issue I'm talking about... no other classes can use TWO attributes to determine attack bonuses or AC AND ESPECIALLY SAVING THROWS!
Besides the issue surrounding Paladin, I actually DO LIKE the idea of +1 to all Attributes each Tier... I just don't know if what occurs with the paladin is a big, big issue or if it can be worked around or what.
I'm not denying that there is a potentially large impact from across the board increases. Trust me, I've run the math and seen it double and triple checked. I am pointing out however that the impact of such an increase is smaller than the impact of going with any other form of ability score increase.
With the current rules the above paladin is picking up +5 to virtually all key statistics, vs. the +5 to one (be it attack or AC or save DCs) that another class receives. Further, and this is really the larger point, the +5 to DCs for spellcasters is killer if not balanced out by a +5 to saving throws. That's a full 25% swing in the effectiveness of any save allowing spell (particular save or die / save or sucks). While not a problem if applied only to PCs, when you begin introducing NPCs with mythic levels - who are often higher level as well - things get ugly quickly.
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the paladin does get huge save bonuses with that proposed method, however, mythic power eats up the swift actions. which makes it harder to utilize lay on hands and other swift action paladin powers. which kind of balances itself out. other than the huge smite bonuses, which is only against up to anywhere between 1-7 foes per day based on the paladin's level. and depending on whether or not paladin goes "Team Attack Pattern Alpha" with one of his auras.
another class in a similar boat is the inquisitor, who gets +10 to initiative, like the magus, and likely has enough dexterity to eschew that suit of mythril kikko for a silken ceremonial robe unless he takes a specific mythic ability.
Hmm... Me wonders...
The Mythic Path's add their own depth to characters, except for the feats which seem to directly impact pre-exisitng feats. So, what if, the mythic point pool were not drawn from an existing ability score but discerned from a new set of scores.
To explain, as we have it set up, you can sync your wellspring for Mythic Powers to an existing Ability Score Modifier. Well, let's move away from that and create a knew place for this pool to be drawn from, shall we?
So, when your character ascends to Mythicdom, you gain your MYTHIC ABILITY or whatever you want to call it. So, I see fit to picking three types of Abilities.
PHYSICAL
MENTAL
SPIRITUAL
So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.
What does this do for MAD versus SAD. Well, now your boost for Mythic Powers are tied to an entirely separate Ability, and if you so choose to use the tier advancements for pre-exisitng ability scores, so be it and you will face the drawback of having a lower pool of mythic powers to draw from, you see?
So, why have three different categories, well besides flavor, perhaps this new venue will open up a new list of feats that can only be taken if you were using, let's say PHYSICAL. Furthermore, path abilities may entertain, not having a tier dependency for taking them, but a particular ABILITY dependency, so a path ability may read something like this,
Mighty Damage(Ex):Damage you deal during this round is not subject to damage reductions or energy resistances,but you must expend one use of mythic power to do so.Your mythic powers must be drawn from the PHYSICAL Ability to take this path ability.
Obviously, my path ability is not very encompassing for the game as a whole, but my example should get my point across.
In conclusion, the SAD are not getting richer, and the MAD stand a chance against SAD based classes when making the ascension to Mythicdom.
So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.
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I started thinking about how low the pool would be if it started out at ten. Perhaps there could be an encompassment of what others have already said here in this thread. I know if a character had had a stat that was an 18(+4) that they would start off with a 5 Mythic Points. Hmm...
Using my proposed method they would be starting out with 1 Mythic Point at tier 1. Unless they used their first path ability towards the Extra Mythic Power. In which case they would start with three.
So, my amendment to this problem is as follows. At each mythic tier advancement. So, I think it should be 1. Each level you go up +1 for each under the Mythic Power path you have chosen, PHYSICAL,MENTAL, SPIRITUAL.(MORE ON THIS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT) And, as is already written you would still be able to boost an Ability score by two every other tier. So, in effect, if you never put your +2 toward your Mythic Ability Score it will stand at 20(+5) at tier 10.
Second amendment, the three Mythic Abilities I chose before could also play a role in the automatic +1 per level. If it were like this...
PHYSICAL - Str. Dex. Con.
MENTAL - INT. WIS. CHA.
SPIRITUAL - ANY THREE PRIOR ABILITIES i.e. A combination of the original six.
So, at each level, your one time selected Mythic Ability, from which you draw your mythic pool, determines which abilities all receive the every tier advancement +1. So, in effect, a Fighter who chooses PHYSICAL will at first tier gain +1 to all physical stats and at second tier another +1 to all physical stats for an allotted advancement of +2. Then for the second tier pre-exisiting Ability Score increase of +2, you could choose to add this to any one of your seven Ability scores. If you decide to add to your Mythic Ability Score, your Str. Dex. Con. do not gain the bonus. So, your total Mythic Ability stat would be 14(+2).
To conclude, my proposal is one that could help balance this system, yet it does weaken the potential already in existence.
Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.
Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.
Yeah, that seems plausible. I don't like the name spiritual anymore anyways.
I think Spiritual is actually a pretty good name. Especially when grouped with Physical and Mental.
Maybe Fundamental? Fundaphysical? Social doesn't really work, since it's kind of already incorporated in Mental, and isn't half physical or something.
Hmmm.....
Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.
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Okay, so, I dreamed up...
Following your idea of picking two abilities...What if, perchance. When you picked the SPIRITUAl, it let you pick two other and the third plus one when straight into your SPIRITUAL ability score. So, for instance...
I pick Strength and Wisdom for my Monk, by selecting the SPIRITUAL Ability. Every time I tier up I will get my +1 in Str. and Wis. and also to the Spiritual ability. That way you can really head for more mythic points, the drawback being that you only get two of your prior ability scores increased. Yeah?
You like?
I think there needs to be a further distinction between MAD and SAD classes when it comes to mythic
there a difference between SAD class that have a single high attribute and SAD classes that have a single high attribute and a second attribute almost as high which is not hard to do vs a MAD class that benefits from 3 or more stats being high.
The SAD with two high stats is going to create very strong mythic characters with dual focus even over a pure single stat build.
With the right race +2 +2 -2 and a little min/maxing you can be swimming in mythic points.
simple example would be an 18Dex 18Int Elf Wiz/Sorc
dual focus nets you a happy 8 MP plus rank. throw in either of the Archmage abilities and you can throw out an additional 9 of your highest level spells at MR1.
fun fun fun :D
I think that Dual Focus is interesting for SAD too. With a few magic items you can have a really decent secondary ability score. Like a Warrior with Constitution or a Priest with Strength.
And add 3-4 mythic power each day could be nice.
PS: Sorry for my english I'm french^^
... what kind of point buy are you using that you can afford two 18s?
I mean, I guess, at high or epic fantasy, if you completely tanked all of your other scores, but oof.
... oh, or are you talking about rolled stats?
@tacticslion: 20 point buy.
10 16 10 16 10 10 before racial
10 18 08 18 10 10 after racial (in his example)
Ah, now I see. Got it.
I thought he meant both before the racial, but that would have skewed his numbers to 10 per day plus rank. Nevermind everyone, Tac is just a doofus, carry on!
mmmm now there's something I hadn't considered before a class like Dragon Disciple that grants a bunch of permanent ability bonus increases is going to net you more mythic points.
mmm gives new value to class bonuses to ability scores
mmmm now there's something I hadn't considered before a class like Dragon Disciple that grants a bunch of permanent ability bonus increases is going to net you more mythic points.
mmm gives new value to class bonuses to ability scores
Hence, my new ABILITY SCORE suggestion/proposal/idea
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Hence, my new ABILITY SCORE suggestion/proposal/ideammmm now there's something I hadn't considered before a class like Dragon Disciple that grants a bunch of permanent ability bonus increases is going to net you more mythic points.
mmm gives new value to class bonuses to ability scores
Let my start by saying sorry if this sound a bit to critical.
I think adding more ability scores to the game is a bad idea for quite a lot of reasons:
Fixing the eternal conflict between SAD and MAD characters might be a noble and worthy goal ( I happen to disagree, investing in more than a 16 (in point buy) + racial mod, will give your character serious disadvantages), this fix can't and should not come inside an optional overlay system, that can be applied in a variety of ways. So it would have to be fixed in the core rules, not the mythic rules.
Adding more game terms is something, that can only be done so often before it becomes overwhelming. Adding a new class can be fun and add interesting elements to the game, but just adding a stat to fix a problem, does not warrant beefing up the index. The game is already pretty damn complicated at higher levels, and bluntly the mythic rules don't make it easier. A level 10 fighter is way less complicated, that a fighter 9/champion1. And new meta-ability scores don't really help.
It messes with balance, if you have to decide between improving an existing ability score and one of the new ones. A wizard might be the usual example for a SAD character, but a wizard can function perfectly fine as long as his casting stat is high enough to cast his his highest level spell. Martial characters (and quite a lot of those are MAD) really have to rely on the ability score that allows them to beat people. There is a pretty big difference between hitting an opponent on a rolled 14 and better or 18+. So the idea might actually hurt MAD classes more than the SAD classes.
It is a crutch, maybe a shiny crutch, but the current “problem” with the mythic playtest, seems to be the calculation: ability score + mythic tier. It could just as well be, level + mythic tier ( but that way those filthy commoner19/tickster1 would be soooo OP :) ) . No, my point is, that there are a number of other calculations out there, that don't require adding a lot of text.
Now, not having a proper space for it on the standard character sheet might be quite petty, but there isn't.