It looks like we're in agreement then: this has been a long-running problem, not one that began with this thread.That thread was never about rules questions, yet people (you included) kept asking them. And James did keep, to the best of his ability, try to answer them, including the really weird/corner-case ones, and even those famous "questions within questions" of your variety.
I did actually at one point ask him if he's not afraid of his answers contradicting Jason/SKR, but he answered that he makes it crystal clear that these are his home rulings and not official errata. Yet people persisted in using his answers (in particular the ones they didn't like, trip weapon property and AoMF I am looking at you) to bludgeon others to death.
Then he woke up one day and saw this thread, which is basically a dump taken on the work of him and his collegaues. Sure, maybe you didn't want it to come off as such, maybe you really wanted the best, maybe you honestly came back from work and said "oh crap why oh why did I name this thread so, wish I could edit it now...", but the damage is done, the balls were dropped and the pooch was screwed.
No, we're not. This thread was a catalyst.
You're trying to find something in my post that will help you think: "well, this thread was a blooper, but it's not like *I* dropped the ball, this all was an ongoing thing and I was just a little tiny part of it, *phew*!"
I think you're blaming one particular metastasized tumor for the entire problem, Bag man. I mean, this particular one started the bleeding, but it wasn't the first evidence of pathology.
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Its naht a tumah.
wait, we've skipped over the pooch! BACK to THE POOCH!
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I wonder if Paizo should think twice about continued growth; just because you can get bigger doesn't mean you should.
Record labels are the perfect example of businesses which can stay the same size for years and continue to make money.
They can still innovate and adapt to developing markets.
Meanwhile, other record companies chase 'big' acts to up their revenue and end up folding or being bought out for peanuts.
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It isn't a question of houseruling. WBL is squarely the purview of the GM. Crafting only lets you beat WBL insofar as the GM lets it. And any kind of crafting requires GM adjudication, unless you're doing some DPR comparison build on the Internet, which, as I said, pure theorywank.Pure theorywank. Crafting doesn't happen in a vacuum, and by in a vacuum, I mean without GM adjudication.A wizard with craft wondrous item will have almost double the effective wealth as one who doesn't. How is that not broken?Fix the magic item system and I'll forgive a whole lot of feat/ability synergy issues. :)And for the record... I for one don't think the magic system is broken.If the question is what the rules allow, this falls into the general area of "if the GM disagrees then they can house rule".
By the rules as written, johnlocke is essentially correct.
What do you mean by GM adjudication? Unless the GM is going to say our party never gets downtime(which generally screws with story), I will often craft my gear.
Sure, you can choose to give the party half of WBl, but that is going to hurt everyone but the wizard(who charges allies 75 percent of normal cost). This is going to really hurt the fighter who is way more item dependent than the wizard.
This all makes no sense.
If you have a crafter then everyone in the party gets bonus gear.
Unless you've got terrible antagonistic player/character relationships.
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It's really terrifying when the NPCs use teamwork against PCs.
PC wizard starts an incantation.
NPC cleric casts Silence on NPC Monk.
NPC Monk goes and plays "Hostile Chiropractor" on the PC Wizard.
NPC Tripper Build sets up Combat Patrol and stands between the NPC cleric and the PCs.NPC Cleric channels negative energy, gets entire party.
NPC Monk keeps Wizard in silenced grapple, and does his IUS damage.PC players realize that they don't have a way to save the Wizard AND threaten the cleric at the same time...and as the GM, I prohibit them from TALKING TO EACH OTHER if their PC is in the Silence area.
PC Wizard drops, having gotten no spell off in the fight. Monk attempts to Disarm fighter of his sword, draws AoO, and is told "I have a locked gauntlet." Monk spends Ki point for +4 AC.
Party cleric positive channels to heal. Party Rogue and Archer try to rush the NPC cleric...and fall to the NPC trip build fighter.
NPC cleric neg channels again.
Fighter attacks Monk. Does not kill Monk.
Monk Grapples fighter. Fighter is on ground. Fighter realizes that a shield strapped to his arm and a locked gauntlet means that he cannot do damage to the Monk while in the Grapple. Even worse, he can't even call for help...and while his CMB is good, he needs an 18, 19 or 20 to get out of an existing Grapple.
NPC cleric neg channels again. Most of the party drops.
NPC Monk goes for the Pin.
NPC cleric neg channels again...
And you get the picture.
That's just PCs using bad teamwork, surely?
Everyone knows the default tactic in PFRPG is to overwhelm foes one at a time.
Other version:
PC wizard starts an incantation.
NPC cleric casts Silence on NPC Monk.
NPC Monk goes and plays "Hostile Chiropractor" on the PC Wizard. (We'll gloss over how all of this happens, by 'incantation' I assume you mean spell which takes more than a standard action to cast.)
NPC Tripper Build sets up Combat Patrol and stands between the NPC cleric and the PCs.
NPC Cleric channels negative energy, gets entire party.
NPC Monk keeps Wizard in silenced grapple, and does his IUS damage.
PC players smash the monk into tiny pieces.
PC Wizard drops.
Party cleric positive channels to heal. PC Wizard is back-up.
Party fighter attacks trip fighter, Party Rogue flanks trip fighter and Party Archer fills trip fighter with arrows Party mage casts spells on trip fighter.
NPC cleric neg channels again.
Fighter, Archer and Rogue attack tripper. Tripper dies.
Cleric heals party again, cancelling out evil cleric.
Party Caster does some battlefiled control.
Entire party smashes evil cleric to bits until her surrenders and gives up all his secrets. Then, having learnt of all his awful crimes, they finish him off.
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GeraintElberion: If you have a crafter in the party the rest of the party should not financially benefit from that crafter's feat. The WBL FAQ reinforces this. Allowing the rest of the party to financially benefit from the crafter will in fact cause those other players to gain a lot of power without paying for it. It is one reason why some GMs ban crafting.
- Gauss
GeraintElberion: If you have a crafter in the party the rest of the party should not financially benefit from that crafter's feat. The WBL FAQ reinforces this. Allowing the rest of the party to financially benefit from the crafter will in fact cause those other players to gain a lot of power without paying for it. It is one reason why some GMs ban crafting.
- Gauss
Yep.
Wizards: the party magic item mart.
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We have a game company where the authors actually join in the discussion of the rules.
That is awesome.
I think some people are like this.(NSFW Language)
LazarX: While I agree in large, things like the Monk flurry and how it's supposed to work isn't really a corner case.
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LazarX: While I agree in large, things like the Monk flurry and how it's supposed to work isn't really a corner case.
It was the community not agreeing with the Dev, which is a different issue.
The Dev made the intention of the rule clear and people didn't like it.
This is very different than getting different rulings.
Either way, the people who wrote the book for the game are directly communicating with us to answer questions.
For free.
And people are complaining they aren't doing this free service good enough.
People do not have to agree with the Devs. I dont think the Devs expect that. But they should respect them and even while disagreeing should not insult them. This has occured way too much.
- Gauss
Honestly the name of the thread isnt so bad. I think it has more to so with it being a touchy subject and that the OP has a rep.
O hai Beckett, you doing this "post under aliases" thing too? Glad I'm not alone :D
Actually, I think the thread topic is rather tame. I'd go with "PAIZO SHOULD RAM FLAMING PITCHFORKS IN THEIR EYES RIGHT NOW!!!" or something about SKR's unborn children.
Maybe also something about Cleric heavy armor proficiency.
Just to drive the point.
(/sarcasm, for all you "Internet as written" people.)
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O hai Beckett, you doing this "post under aliases" thing too? Glad I'm not alone :D
Less an alias and more (at least it is my intention to) an attempt to indicate that I'm both serious (not being sarcastic or joking) with whatever I say at the time, and trying to see both sides of whatever argument I'm making, even if I do not personally agree with it, I can see merit in it. (I'm assuming Mr. Gauss, without even looking ha ha ha)
There's a pretty big difference from saying fix some internal or foundational problems with ______
The problem is you and others are fixated on RAW text to the level that some Fundamentalists insist on literal interpretations of Genesis. That really isn't how the game should be played.
I respectfully disagree. It's not up to you to tell us how "the game should be played" as there are many different ways for the game to be enjoyed and played by different people for different reasons.
I actually prefer a game that has tight rules consistency as both a player and GM (call me a RAW fundamentalist if you like) so I don't have to stop every 5 minutes to make an adjudication or homebrew decision on something that isn't clear.
While I do understand why people were disappointed with the thread title, I was appreciative of the Paizo staff taking the extra time to fix some problems such as with the the monk rules inconsistency which frankly annoyed me (I don't care if the monk is a weak or strong class as long as the rules are consistent). I know there were many others who were pleased with the outcome as well.
To put this in perspective, I wouldn't care so much if Paizo hadn't made me so passionate about the game (and yes, I know at the end of the day it's just a game). They made me care so much by doing 4 things:
1. Developing a great rules system but still feels like D&D of old.
2. They invented Adventure Paths which is a whole campaign laid out for me without me having to do much work as a GM. Why noone thought of this sooner, I'll never know.
3. They came up with the Pathfinder Society idea which has brought me many hours of enjoyment and allowed me to meet and hang out with new people who share my interest/passion in this hobby.
4. The involvement of the Paizo staff in the Pathfinder community and their excellent communication and feedback via the forums. I've never experienced this level of approachability from the staff for any other roleplaying or tabletop game before and it is refreshing.
Wow, and to think I almost missed the blanket party for Ravingdork.
And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?
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in my language it's translated into "bjälke" which is a specifically a wooden beam.
I've always got the impression it's equal to "don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house" or "don't throw dire beavers if you live in a wooden castle".
Everyone knows the default tactic in PFRPG is to overwhelm foes one at a time.
Oh, with good tactics, this wouldn't've been as much of a nail-biter of an encounter.
The Wizard was casting a summoned swarm. The fighter was applying an oil of Bless Weapon on his scimitar in the first round...and the players had not discussed what to do if their characters were silenced.
So I wasn't allowing them to table talk unless both of the characters were outside the silence spell, unless they could do it via pantomime.
Unless you are playing society, why does it matter? Just issue a table ruling and go with it.Because some people don't want to spend money on a system that they feel they have to change and houserule.
Wait, are you saying there's an RPG out there that's so good that no one has ever made any changes to the rules? If so, please send me a link because I'm snapping that bad boy up in a heartbeat. It must be the best game ever.
I've been playing RPGs for 30 years and have never owned one that wasn't played with at least a few house rules.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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It's really terrifying when the NPCs use teamwork against PCs.
PC wizard starts an incantation.
NPC cleric casts Silence on NPC Monk.
NPC Monk goes and plays "Hostile Chiropractor" on the PC Wizard.
NPC Tripper Build sets up Combat Patrol and stands between the NPC cleric and the PCs.NPC Cleric channels negative energy, gets entire party.
NPC Monk keeps Wizard in silenced grapple, and does his IUS damage.PC players realize that they don't have a way to save the Wizard AND threaten the cleric at the same time...and as the GM, I prohibit them from TALKING TO EACH OTHER if their PC is in the Silence area.
PC Wizard drops, having gotten no spell off in the fight. Monk attempts to Disarm fighter of his sword, draws AoO, and is told "I have a locked gauntlet." Monk spends Ki point for +4 AC.
Party cleric positive channels to heal. Party Rogue and Archer try to rush the NPC cleric...and fall to the NPC trip build fighter.
NPC cleric neg channels again.
Fighter attacks Monk. Does not kill Monk.
Monk Grapples fighter. Fighter is on ground. Fighter realizes that a shield strapped to his arm and a locked gauntlet means that he cannot do damage to the Monk while in the Grapple. Even worse, he can't even call for help...and while his CMB is good, he needs an 18, 19 or 20 to get out of an existing Grapple.
NPC cleric neg channels again. Most of the party drops.
NPC Monk goes for the Pin.
NPC cleric neg channels again...
And you get the picture.
No wai, wizards godmode everything and monks suck. Fighters always outDPR monks, but that wouldn't matter, because the wizard would always be flying and invisible and would end the encounter in no more than 1.5 rounds.
It has to be true, I read it on the forums.
I cringe every time I see a new post added to this thread.
Me too. On the bright side I think we've all learned a valuable lesson here today.
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I cringe every time I see a new post added to this thread.Me too. On the bright side I think we've all learned a valuable lesson here today.
The fact that this thread is still not locked is a testament to the high calibre that is Paizo. They could have locked the gates to this cesspool and thrown away the keys, yet here it remains, open to freedom of expression and opinion.
You are awesome Paizo, and continue to set the bar for quality and company conduct, day-in and day-out.
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Modernization: mote = sawdust, beam = 2x4. Jesus was trolling!Well, dude was a carpenter. I wonder if they made him build his own cross.
That would've changed history!
'The cross? Oh...it'll be ready next Tuesday!'
'C'mon guy! It's like you don't want to be crucified at all!'
'No, really, it's just the wrong time of year for wood...!'
'Forget it! I'm just going to crucify someone else, that's all!'
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Unless you are playing society, why does it matter? Just issue a table ruling and go with it.Because some people don't want to spend money on a system that they feel they have to change and houserule.Wait, are you saying there's an RPG out there that's so good that no one has ever made any changes to the rules? If so, please send me a link because I'm snapping that bad boy up in a heartbeat. It must be the best game ever.
I've been playing RPGs for 30 years and have never owned one that wasn't played with at least a few house rules.
It would help if you wouldn't cherry pick your quotes and actually read them in full. It was already said that I know there is no game that is perfect.
It would help if you wouldn't cherry pick your quotes and actually read them in full. It was already said that I know there is no game that is perfect.Unless you are playing society, why does it matter? Just issue a table ruling and go with it.Because some people don't want to spend money on a system that they feel they have to change and houserule.Wait, are you saying there's an RPG out there that's so good that no one has ever made any changes to the rules? If so, please send me a link because I'm snapping that bad boy up in a heartbeat. It must be the best game ever.
I've been playing RPGs for 30 years and have never owned one that wasn't played with at least a few house rules.
Yes, but where would be the fun in that? Reading four hundred some-odd posts on a subject I only have the most casual interest in to forgo the ability to up my post count with something humorous? That way lies madness.
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What's taking us so long to clear up these issues is that we've got more on our plates than keeping our house "in order," unfortunately. The pace at which we produce products, which need to come out on as regular a schedule as possible due to our subscription models (a model that, by the way, makes what we do at Paizo possible since it allows us some resistance against the fickle whims of distribution and lets us observe and control a significant amount of our business which allows us to more accurately spend resources and money on things like print runs—something that a lack of played a MAJOR role in driving TSR out of business) means that the bulk of our time is spent working on upcoming products.
It's certainly frustrating to see errors show up in print, just as it is frustrating when two different philosophies of game design sometimes clash together. We're doing what we can to adjust things. We ARE working on solving the issue with the monk, but the timing of when we do that and release that information has to work hand in hand with other things, like our regularly scheduled production responsibilities, RPG Superstar, Mythic Playtests, Convention duties, licensing stuff (such as with the minis, comics, or Goblinworks), and vacations/personal lives.
To a certain extent, though, fans of the game need to help. First, but letting us know when we mess up is important. It might take several months or even a year or more to see that error corrected in print due to the time it takes for us to turn the metaphorically immense battleship that is Paizo Publishing, but if we don't realize or know we made a mistake, we can't fix it at all in the first place.
Second, being patient with us as we react to feedback is IMMENSELY helpful. Letting us know that there's concerns with the monk is certainly important, but gnawing and worrying and obsessing on this fact non-stop isn't very productive, and only really leads to flame wars and internet-fueled discontent. And realizing that no two people play the game...
This was an interesting thread and having started my RPG adventuring with the boxed set (before it was a boxed set) and actually owning a copy of Chainmail, what struck me throughout the thread is that creativity of the GM and the players seems to have been stifled over the years by the desire to have the rules be so clear as to be non-ambiguous 100% of the time. Rules lawyering and arguments over rules have, in my own experience, broken up more groups than anything else. I understand the desire to get it both right and be fair. I spend a lot of time scouring the boards for clarity on rules from time to time and even post to get some feedback occasionally. So I understand that desire, but I wish more players would appreciate the adventure more, even when every rule doesn't work quite the way they want it to and every spell isn't as awesome as they would like it to be. I'd like to see creativity be more important than the the need for a PFRules database (though that would be kind of awesome and eliminate hours of searching.)
I find that the Paizo team is one of the best teams in the RPG industry and their success has created some of the problems discussed on this thread. Their popularity and success also present them with many obligations as noted in the post that I quoted. I felt as I was reading many of the posts that those posting had barely a clue as to how any large and successful business is run especially when it has to balance time, resources, and the "wants" of it's customers. The fact that James posted at least seven responses to this thread means that he and Paizo are interested in feedback and want to address customer concerns. For all of us that should be enough at this point.
Ravingdork and others have planted the seed. Now let's let it grow.
So all the BS is fertilizer?
:)
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Two things that have developed over the years:
The unwillingness of players to except a DMs ruling (in modern sports there is the same game, with the same rules and Refs REGULARLY rule a different way from another ref)
Nearly EVERYone having books (I recall the days when the DMG was for the DMs eyes, no one perused the MM, and NO one made pre thought out characters ("builds").
These two things have made an utter mess out of playing this game, coupled with the internets ability to give voices to people who, admittedly, couldn't get the mop in a broom closet to listen to what they have to say.
This 'disease' has spread from table to table in the last 5 or so years, to the point where the table rarely IF EVER belongs to the Dungeon Master anymore.
How do you fix this?
To quote Shakespeare: "The first thing we do, kill all the lawyers"
Rules lawyers don't live at my table. I'll simply keep killing them. God Wizards? Never seen one.
Yup, we have trouble filling our table with players, it's a draw back. But when we DO play? We have fun, and there is a clear, final voice on what the rules are.
As this game has ALWAYS been designed, DM has the final ruling.
One of the main issues I have with PFS, opens too much room to "official rules" handwaving everything else to "homebrew".
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GeraintElberion: If you have a crafter in the party the rest of the party should not financially benefit from that crafter's feat. The WBL FAQ reinforces this. Allowing the rest of the party to financially benefit from the crafter will in fact cause those other players to gain a lot of power without paying for it. It is one reason why some GMs ban crafting.
- Gauss
So the item-crafting feats are actually designed to damage party relationships (unless you meta-game them)? Blimey!
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Everyone knows the default tactic in PFRPG is to overwhelm foes one at a time.
Oh, with good tactics, this wouldn't've been as much of a nail-biter of an encounter.
The Wizard was casting a summoned swarm. The fighter was applying an oil of Bless Weapon on his scimitar in the first round...and the players had not discussed what to do if their characters were silenced.
So I wasn't allowing them to table talk unless both of the characters were outside the silence spell, unless they could do it via pantomime.
I think the silent-monk-wizard-grapple is more of a PC tactic because high-level NPC casters tend to hang out with weaker mooks who need the wizard. Meanwhile, PCs are all pretty badass.
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Two things that have developed over the years:
The unwillingness of players to except a DMs ruling (in modern sports there is the same game, with the same rules and Refs REGULARLY rule a different way from another ref)
Nearly EVERYone having books (I recall the days when the DMG was for the DMs eyes, no one perused the MM, and NO one made pre thought out characters ("builds").
These two things have made an utter mess out of playing this game, coupled with the internets ability to give voices to people who, admittedly, couldn't get the mop in a broom closet to listen to what they have to say.
This 'disease' has spread from table to table in the last 5 or so years, to the point where the table rarely IF EVER belongs to the Dungeon Master anymore.
How do you fix this?
To quote Shakespeare: "The first thing we do, kill all the lawyers"
Rules lawyers don't live at my table. I'll simply keep killing them. God Wizards? Never seen one.
Yup, we have trouble filling our table with players, it's a draw back. But when we DO play? We have fun, and there is a clear, final voice on what the rules are.
As this game has ALWAYS been designed, DM has the final ruling.
One of the main issues I have with PFS, opens too much room to "official rules" handwaving everything else to "homebrew".
Haha. Oppressive dictatorship for the win. /sarcasm
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I think the silent-monk-wizard-grapple is more of a PC tactic because high-level NPC casters tend to hang out with weaker mooks who need the wizard. Meanwhile, PCs are all pretty badass.
Everyone knows the default tactic in PFRPG is to overwhelm foes one at a time.
Oh, with good tactics, this wouldn't've been as much of a nail-biter of an encounter.
The Wizard was casting a summoned swarm. The fighter was applying an oil of Bless Weapon on his scimitar in the first round...and the players had not discussed what to do if their characters were silenced.
So I wasn't allowing them to table talk unless both of the characters were outside the silence spell, unless they could do it via pantomime.
What was shocking to my players was that the NPCs weren't playing the "We will all try and shoot and just do damage" static fight. They worked as a team. The PCs sorta coordinated, but they largely relied on the plate armor fighter to be unhittable, the cleric to cast battle buffs and be the second front liner - they were firm believers in the "Channels are after-combat healing" to the point where the Cleric player didn't have Selective Channel on his feat list.
Wizard was down, fighter was grappled, and they've already eaten two Neg Channels. If they stay and pummel the monk, they're going to eat at least one more, if not two more neg channels. If the Cleric channels, the monk gets healed too. So they tried to rush the enemy cleric - and ran into a Combat Patrol Trip Monkey polearm user, who then finished off the Cleric after the third channel to make sure there was no healing.
This left Archer-Ranger, Fighter-in-Grapple and untouched enemy Cleric, untouched enemy Fighter with polearm and somewhat Monk grappling the fighter....who hadn't managed to beat a DC 21 Will Save yet for negative channeling.
At this point the NPCs asked for their surrender and promised they'd all live. Plot advanced.
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So the item-crafting feats are actually designed to damage party relationships (unless you meta-game them)? Blimey!GeraintElberion: If you have a crafter in the party the rest of the party should not financially benefit from that crafter's feat. The WBL FAQ reinforces this. Allowing the rest of the party to financially benefit from the crafter will in fact cause those other players to gain a lot of power without paying for it. It is one reason why some GMs ban crafting.
- Gauss
Actually they are there to be used responsibly.
Haha. Oppressive dictatorship for the win. /sarcasmTwo things that have developed over the years:
The unwillingness of players to except a DMs ruling (in modern sports there is the same game, with the same rules and Refs REGULARLY rule a different way from another ref)
Nearly EVERYone having books (I recall the days when the DMG was for the DMs eyes, no one perused the MM, and NO one made pre thought out characters ("builds").
These two things have made an utter mess out of playing this game, coupled with the internets ability to give voices to people who, admittedly, couldn't get the mop in a broom closet to listen to what they have to say.
This 'disease' has spread from table to table in the last 5 or so years, to the point where the table rarely IF EVER belongs to the Dungeon Master anymore.
How do you fix this?
To quote Shakespeare: "The first thing we do, kill all the lawyers"
Rules lawyers don't live at my table. I'll simply keep killing them. God Wizards? Never seen one.
Yup, we have trouble filling our table with players, it's a draw back. But when we DO play? We have fun, and there is a clear, final voice on what the rules are.
As this game has ALWAYS been designed, DM has the final ruling.
One of the main issues I have with PFS, opens too much room to "official rules" handwaving everything else to "homebrew".
Oh yes because a quorum of rules lawyers running the table is so much less of a dictatorship.
Ever seen a Coach throw a Ref out of the game, or a player? Nope.
Two things that have developed over the years:
The unwillingness of players to except a DMs ruling (in modern sports there is the same game, with the same rules and Refs REGULARLY rule a different way from another ref)
Nearly EVERYone having books (I recall the days when the DMG was for the DMs eyes, no one perused the MM, and NO one made pre thought out characters ("builds").
These two things have made an utter mess out of playing this game, coupled with the internets ability to give voices to people who, admittedly, couldn't get the mop in a broom closet to listen to what they have to say.
This 'disease' has spread from table to table in the last 5 or so years, to the point where the table rarely IF EVER belongs to the Dungeon Master anymore.
How do you fix this?
To quote Shakespeare: "The first thing we do, kill all the lawyers"
Rules lawyers don't live at my table. I'll simply keep killing them. God Wizards? Never seen one.
Yup, we have trouble filling our table with players, it's a draw back. But when we DO play? We have fun, and there is a clear, final voice on what the rules are.
As this game has ALWAYS been designed, DM has the final ruling.
One of the main issues I have with PFS, opens too much room to "official rules" handwaving everything else to "homebrew".
I approve. So I've got this idea for "work" camps for the rules lawyers.
Especially agree with your homebrew and official divide. No interpretation or a real debate, suggest something and it gets pushed to homebrew, with negative connotations and ye do not know the rules boy implications.
I think the silent-monk-wizard-grapple is more of a PC tactic because high-level NPC casters tend to hang out with weaker mooks who need the wizard. Meanwhile, PCs are all pretty badass.
Everyone knows the default tactic in PFRPG is to overwhelm foes one at a time.
Oh, with good tactics, this wouldn't've been as much of a nail-biter of an encounter.
The Wizard was casting a summoned swarm. The fighter was applying an oil of Bless Weapon on his scimitar in the first round...and the players had not discussed what to do if their characters were silenced.
So I wasn't allowing them to table talk unless both of the characters were outside the silence spell, unless they could do it via pantomime.
What was shocking to my players was that the NPCs weren't playing the "We will all try and shoot and just do damage" static fight. They worked as a team. The PCs sorta coordinated, but they largely relied on the plate armor fighter to be unhittable, the cleric to cast battle buffs and be the second front liner - they were firm believers in the "Channels are after-combat healing" to the point where the Cleric player didn't have Selective Channel on his feat list.
Wizard was down, fighter was grappled, and they've already eaten two Neg Channels. If they stay and pummel the monk, they're going to eat at least one more, if not two more neg channels. If the Cleric channels, the monk gets healed too. So they tried to rush the enemy cleric - and ran into a Combat Patrol Trip Monkey polearm user, who then finished off the Cleric after the third channel to make sure there was no healing.
This left Archer-Ranger, Fighter-in-Grapple and untouched enemy Cleric, untouched enemy Fighter with polearm and somewhat Monk grappling the fighter....who hadn't managed to beat a DC 21 Will Save yet for negative channeling.
At this point the NPCs asked for their surrender and promised they'd all live....
Lovely. Yeah you can make npcs respected by pcs, if they really think and fight hard. Nothing makes pcs disrespect npcs more than having them be weaklings, a mistake I have made a few times.
Ultra reasonable npc team. So the players were really hurt by losing weren't they?
The players collectively are always stronger than the dm. They can completely take over, but the dm will quickly fold and leave disgusted and offended.
I've heard stories on this, oh the lols.
As a dm though, rules lawyers are frustrating, especially when they are opinionated but wrong and slow the game down.