Where are the Golarion plane walkers?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If your opinion, where is the highest chance of planewalking adventures to be based out of in Golarion?

Nex?

The schools in Absalom?

What economies could support a planer expedition and where would people not freak out when the PC's came back from the depths fo the First World, or one of the 12 active 'planes'?

Just curious.

Also, planer adventure Players Guide would be great.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Worldwound (and hinted at for Realm of the Mammoth Lords) has an opening to the Abyss.

Cheliax has an opening to Hell.

River Kingdoms (and I few others) have an opening to the First World.

Absalom has an irregular opening to the Shadow Plane.

And there are 2 organizations dedicated to planar adventures, the Blackfire Adepts and Riftwardens.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Useful. Thank you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Forgotten Realms forum is two steps down the right.

Golarion seems to have more of a "grounded" down to earth focus. While characters may make excursions to outer planes, there aren't any that make that the main focus of their lifestyle.

Because if they did, they'd be gone and the focus of their stories would be elsewhere in settings they don't have time to build up on.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

LazarX, seriously? I know the focus is on the core world. But they've hinted at some interesting planes to explore. Like the First World, the Shadow Plane, and the 12 realms tied to the moons. (And the hidden 13th). While I'll merit you it's not D&D Planescaple level hopping, there is room to explore these borderlands with Golarion. Especially for your foes to come from there.

So check the attitude at the door my fella.

Pff. Hell I'd run a Stargate style Plantary Adventure game using Golarion's local solar system.


I would think most planewalkers would be in Absalon and Nex. Cheliax to a lesser extent. I think most of the cheliaxians would only interested in hell. One of my players read about the wizard that lives in the sun and he is now bugging the hell out of me to start a planet hopping campaign.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, Golarion has plane and planet hopping. Two very different experiences.


I'm guessing that most Golarion planeswalkers would be walking the planes. There are plenty of potential bases in the planes themselves, that unless a planeswalker has some tie to some part of the Material they might be better served operating out of the planes themselves.


Valmeray has a lot of genies floating around, and they can shift to any of the elemental plans...


TheLoneCleric wrote:
the 12 realms tied to the moons. (And the hidden 13th).

I can't figure out what you're talking about. Are you sure you're thinking of Golarion and/or the Great Beyond?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jonathon Vining wrote:
TheLoneCleric wrote:
the 12 realms tied to the moons. (And the hidden 13th).
I can't figure out what you're talking about. Are you sure you're thinking of Golarion and/or the Great Beyond?

Sound like we're talking about Eberron's cosmology

Contributor

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Absalom has an irregular opening to the Shadow Plane.

For what it's worth, the portal is only on the Shadow Absalom side, and it's always open. However it's one way only (out of the Shadow plane, and it deposits you back to wherever you first entered the Shadow plane from).

Sczarni

In case you didn't know, the Pathfinder Tales novel Death's Heretic features some pretty cool plane-hopping. The main character is very much a plane-walking professional.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In 3.5 there was the module Beyond the Vault of Souls (J5) that involved a group of plainwalking mortals that try to

Spoiler:
resurrect Aroden
. I might look there for inspiration. The Great Beyond (the planar book for Golarion's cosmology, also 3.5) has a little bit of tidbits here and there on a scad few planewalking mortals.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lazaro wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
TheLoneCleric wrote:
the 12 realms tied to the moons. (And the hidden 13th).
I can't figure out what you're talking about. Are you sure you're thinking of Golarion and/or the Great Beyond?
Sound like we're talking about Eberron's cosmology

You know. I think I am. Sorry. Both are VERY pulpy settings and I'm jumbling them up in my head a little. Mia Culpa.


City of Strangers has a bit of information about the Council of Truth, who were (and still may be) heavily involved in planeswalking.

Also, let me second Trinite's mention of Death's Heretic. James Sutter did an amazing job with the planes there.

Cheers!
Landon

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really need to read the fiction more. Death's Heretic is now on my shortlist.

Editor-in-Chief

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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Worldwound, Cheliax, River Kingdoms, Absalom,

Blackfire Adepts, Riftwardens.

T.L. puts together a pretty nice little list right up thread, which catches the majority of my suggestions. The ruined mega-magic nations like Thassilon and Azlant are also going to have portals, as we get to see in the next Shattered Star (#65). I'd also put Nidal with its connections to the Plane of Shadow on the list, and the more I think about it the higher Nex rises.

More than anything, though, I don't want the trickle of details that is our publishing schedule to be mistaken for omission or lack of interest or enthusiasm.

Golarion is still in its infancy. There are still numerous nations in the Inner Sea region that are largely undefinied. Until we've said our piece about at least the majority of those we're simply not ready to venture much farther afield in ways more significant than those we've already indulged. Adventures and threats to Isger simply remain more relevant to more players than similar details on Nirvana.

So for now, it just makes more sense for our product line to focus on solidifying the foundation of our world--with semi regular flights of fancy like Dragon Empires, Distant Worlds, planar adventures, and details on the planar races ala Book of the Damned or Chronicle of the Righteous.

But again, don't mistake this for a lack of enthusiasm.

I personally am a HUGE Planescape fan and have personally probably done more to kill proposed planar ideas than I encourage them. The planes are a big damned deal and I don't think they can all be covered with the detail they deserve in a singe 64-page book, an a series of books has challenges as well. So there's a little bit of a question about what we even do with them.

There's also a perception among some gamers that the planes HAVE to be for high-level play, which I not only disagree with but think is a shame--reserving a distinctive style of adventure and range of plots for only the small percentage of characters who ever reach high-levels seems unfortunate to me. While I do think low-level planar characters probably look and feel different than the baseline we've set for Golarion, I don't believe that has to invalidate Golarion's assumptions. I also don't believe that Planescape did everything right and my vision for the planes would be something more dangerous, but still fueled by the idea that planes are a place of unfettered possibilities and philosophies.

Whatever the case, what we do with the planes cannot and will not invalidate the work we've done on Golarion. It would have to be additive. There's not going to be some huge "BAM! A dozen different Worldwounds to all different planes crack open and now rasts and arcanes and axiomites are everywhere!" Not. Going. To. Happen. So part of the effort will be squaring the circle that allows for even low-level plane hopping, but still keeps it from being something that players and GMs who DON'T want it in their games feel like they're having forced on them. Opening up the planes to wider details and play need to be additive to the work of the Pathfinder campaign setting, not a reconstruction. At the same time it also can't be an entirely unrelated and unconnected thing.

I hope this illustrates some of the tricks, dangers, and concerns we have with detailing the planes, but also hints at the depths we've already discussed and considered this... and we don't fret this much over things we don't care about.

So I'm keenly interested in what all of you think. Based on the types of books we've done in the past, what book would you most like to see a hypothetically planar book be like? (One book on each plane is probably not going to happen--it'd take a decade to pull off.)

Also, what would you like to see the Pathfinder Planes be like? Planescape? High-level only? Something in between. Something totally different? How? Let us know and you can bet those opinions will help shape ours.

Thanks!


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
There's also a perception among some gamers that the planes HAVE to be for high-level play, which I not only disagree with but think is a shame--reserving a distinctive style of adventure and range of plots for only the small percentage of characters...

First off, thanks for stopping by and asking us.

As cool as Planescape is, and I'm still a big fan, I think Golarion needs hooks out to planar adventures more. Which is to say, I'd rather have an adventure in a particular region of the Abyss with some information about that region than a whole book on the Abyss.

I guess what I want is usefulness over completeness. I'd rather have a hook to get people to the plane and the areas that hook will take them than an area-by-area breakdown.

Cheers!
Landon

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm kinda torn.

Personally I'd LOVE a Ultimate Planes or the like as a more agnostic book that covers planer adventures and the types of crazy quilt realms a group of PC's can run into. And then mix in planer archtypes and prestige classes.

THEN do a Golarion specific book like Distand Worlds to cover the highlights of the main locations that Golarion planwalkers can go an few organizations and archtypes unique to Golarion walkers.

Most likely with a nice tie in to a Planer heavy AP.

That's my best desire.

At a minimum? A Campaign guide to the First World, etc. Just highlight the 4 most traveled realms. And it might fit Golarion's pulp tone more if it remains mostly mysterious.

But really, I'd LOVE a Pathfinder Ultimate Plane guide with mixes Ultimate Campaign and APG style info that I can reflavor for home brew settings. Just saying. :D


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Also, what would you like to see the Pathfinder Planes be like? Planescape? High-level only? Something in between. Something totally different? How? Let us know and you can bet those opinions will help shape ours.

I think you guys need to do a First World/Fey book. Obviously that fits into the planes, but this is a theme that is pervasive in fantasy.

A book on Fey is something I've seen mentioned as a want-to-see for a long time on a lot of RPG boards. I know it's been done in a lot of systems, but this is a niche that the D&D brand has never really covered much as far as I can tell.

4e had some stuff on it, but I just never got on board that, so I don't know what they did really.

As I said this is obviously planar, but the need for one goes beyond one of those old Planescape type sourcebooks.

I think you guys need to cover how Fey function on Golarion, as well as any sort of "atlas" of the First World.

I'm talking stuff like changelings, time distortion, bargains with Fey, the whole nine yards of things that are mentioned in fairy tales, as well as what has come to be conventions in more recent fantasy literature.

I used to love a book by Andre Norton called Dread Companion. Not to go overboard on this, but despite being nominally science fiction in genre, that book mostly took place on Faerie. It did one of the best jobs I've read on making Faerie a mysterious, scary, alien place.

Faerie should be familiar, yet as utterly alien as the Far Realm (or whatever you are calling that). Wonderful, and frightening.

I want something that finally let's me go all "Full Plate and Packing Steel" on those villagers from The Wicker Man.

Plus you have all kinds of things like different Seelie Courts and Wild Hunts to play with. And things like Cernunnos, He has kind of escaped his box as a Celtic thing now.

And then you get to the First World itself. I'd expect magic to function differently (unreliable divinations and teleportation magic?) and a real coverage on cold iron and Fey. A lot of fantasy I've read has it like Kryptonite to Fey. D&D treats it like just another alchemical substance.


Oh yeah, something I forgot to add.

I think any book you did on the First World/Fey has to have something for all levels.

I mean I've read books where "commoners" deal with Fey, and even go to Faerie.

Also bargaining with the Fey is a common theme. I'd kind of like to see some discussion about this process.


I think a hardcover for starters would be good. Planar Adventures. That would give you more room to give a good overview of all the Planes, plus crunch for different environments, archetypes, etc.

I personally would like to see the Planes be weird, and their denizens moreso. Lots of weird environmental rules, and how they may influence those stuck there

I'd like to see the neutral outsiders fleshed out more, along with the good outsiders. It's great the pyschopomps have gotten love, but I would like to see some love for Aeons, Proteans, Axiomites, etc. And more types of neutral outsiders in general.

I'd like to see more cosmic struggles. We don't need a bloodwar, but there should be epic and timeless conflicts for PCs to get involved in.


The primary thing I want is some discussion of what makes "'I cast plane shift and go elsewhere" different from "I cast teleport and go elsewhere".


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
There's also a perception among some gamers that the planes HAVE to be for high-level play, which I not only disagree with but think is a shame--reserving a distinctive style of adventure and range of plots for only the small percentage of characters who ever reach high-levels seems unfortunate to me.

So much this. If other designers try to enforce planar-equates-high-levels paradigm use all necessary means to change their mind. And I mean all. Ask a friendly Kyton for advice how to enlighten and correct them if they will be persistently holding to their misguided beliefs.

Contributor

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F. Wesley Schneider wrote:


So I'm keenly interested in what all of you think. Based on the types of books we've done in the past, what book would you most like to see a hypothetically planar book be like? (One book on each plane is probably not going to happen--it'd take a decade to pull off.)

Also, what would you like to see the Pathfinder Planes be like? Planescape? High-level only? Something in between. Something totally different? How? Let us know and you can bet those opinions will help shape ours.

Thanks!

*appears in a cloud of fire and shadow*

While I'm very much a child of Planescape's take on the planes, and I consider myself creatively endepted to the Planescape's team's brilliant work on that setting, my own take on the material at home has varied a bit at times. I adore its placing of mortal belief as something of massive importance (for the outer planes at least) but at the same time my version tends to be a bit more extreme at the extremes, amping up the beauty and horror dichotomy it had. I've been accused of running Call of Cthulhu themes in Planescape by my players before, with the planes being rather more grim in the lower planes, and much more dangerous (similar to your own take on the matter).

That said, I don't by any means advocate the 1e perspective of the planes only being fit for high level characters, and all too often treating the planes as high level extraplanar dungeons. I like a bit more nuance than that, and a much more complicated vision of how things work out there.

Yes, some planes are utterly antithetical to mortal life, and unless you have macguffin protection or are high level, it isn't advised that you go there (like knocking on the doors of the Cinder Cone in Abaddon), or going anywhere in Positive Energy without protection. But I also want there to be ways to get around these limitations if you play smart, play prepared, know your limitations and when to push your luck, etc.

Several books I'd love to see:

1) Cities of the Planes - Shadow Absalom, Axis, Galisemni, High Ninshabur, Awaiting-Consumption, etc. Please? :)

2) Planar Hardcover - being a guide to planar adventures, a toolkit to building cosmologies, and probably providing one really detailed starting point that's (relatively) safe for PCs of many levels, with a Sigil-like ability to branch out towards other planes. Did I mention that I've got a lot of stuff written on Galisemni sitting around twiddling its thumbs (its sorta Sigil'esque in a way, maybe made by proteans, has a faction of Riftwardens, heavy on the mystery)?

3) Law and Chaos book - focused on the proteans and axiomites/inevitables. Each of them is probably not worth getting a full book on their own, but could happily fill one out together.

Also, if/when you do a planes focused book, I totally want in if at all possible. ;) And I've never gotten to write something with Colin, that would be cool one of these days.

Silver Crusade

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+∞ to planar adventures for all levels!

(and man it feels great to see so many Planescape fans involved with Golarion :D)

edit-Also, call Tony DiTerlizzi! Even if it's just for one piece of art! Alternately, Roph Ruppel!

edit2-Exclamation marks!

My players no read:
Personal Golarion/Planescape headcanon:

Meeting the Lady of Pain was actually a big part of what turned Dou-Bral into Zon-Kuthon during his trip outside the Golarionverse's local multiversal microcosm. And whatever part of it was intentional on the Lady's part was completely without malice, and in fact might have been to ensure the continued safety of reality.

Also, Bacchae in the Golarion multiverse are mostly failed Cayden worshippers.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I like the. idea of low-level planar areas. The ethereal and shadow planes are so very Ill-defined, I'd like the possibility of low-level adventuring to be possible there. Actually I think it'd be cool to look at the planes west marches or dungeon style the first layer/outer edge/close to the gate of some (maybe most) realms should be playable by low to mid level characters. Getting progressively tougher the deeper one goes.

Alice was a little girl who entered Wonderland and escaped relatively unscathed after all.


For me Planescape is Sigil, urban philosophical campaigns. The first step I think should be a book detailing a planar hub city, a part of Axis, or Galisemni sounds very interesting. I'd like to see the Whispering Way, the Riftwardens, and Diabolism with a lot of influence in the Great Beyond, and new similar organizations.

Agreed that we need more neutral types of outsiders.


Mikaze wrote:

+∞ to planar adventures for all levels!

(and man it feels great to see so many Planescape fans involved with Golarion :D)

edit-Also, call Tony DiTerlizzi! Even if it's just for one piece of art!

Even if you had to pledge Wes's* soul and the souls of all his descendants up to seventh generation!

*:
Or should it be Wes'? I don't recall how this should be formed with names ending on -s - do the :/

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Personally, Golarion planes should dip more into the Pulp inspirations of the setting.

I'd LOVE to see the First World more as the dangerous Hollow Earth type realm. Full of lizard men and wild fey societies from the dawn of time. Each of the other planes have a weird style.

So First World is Hollow Earth

Shadow Plane is a victoran shambles of the real world. Maybe endless Ustalav.

Mix in the higher planes evoking specific art styles and eras. Art Deco, Renesance, you name it.

And most of all, give the cities of the planes a different attitude of the locals.

Axis is very methodical and balanced, but maybe is also home to an endless series of games and competitions beween good and evil.

Etc.


TheLoneCleric wrote:
Personally, Golarion planes should dip more into the Pulp inspirations of the setting.

Regardless of whether Paizo does this, I'm totally stealing it for my home games.

Cheers!
Landon


I can see the concern that the Paizo team has for not wanting to overshadow the Golarion stuff with planar stuff.

It would make sense in game for there not to be as many random planar things occuring on the surface of the prison planet for Rovagug and more so on the other planets of Golarion's system. I would be surprised if there wasn't some sort of "planar filter" on Golarion for that reason alone.

Which is to say, I would be very interested in seeing what Paizo does with planar adventures, but they might tie more into the planetary adventures side of things than the Golarion side.

-TimD

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I had a vision the beings of Axis hold yearly 'games' of skill, strength, etc and the winner gets to dictate how the rules of the city work from year to year. To keep eveyrone honest they bring in a mad god, a quilopic being that hates everyone, etc to judge these events.

They key to a good Planer setting is NOT HAVE A SIGIL. The hub for all your planer adventures needs to be the planet itself. If you need to get to the plane of Shadows you must go though the gates you know. Discovering planer cross overs would be high adventure. A newly discovered portal would have magical academies and local political powers sending adventure's in to explore the new discovery.

They should have Cyphermages in smoking rooms in Riddleport talking about new expedititons. The Queen of Cheliax consulting her devil advisers about new HellKnight ventures into the wilder depths of Hell for sorcerous prizes. The Pathfinder Society mapping out stable gates and warding those that are not.

Etc.

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