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Con is the one stat that nobody who knows what they're doing ever dumps, just because everybody needs HP. Whenever I'm at a public PFS session and see a newbie making a character with a Con score below 10, or even right at 10, I warn them that they'll probably want to bump it up to at least 12, to aid in survivability.
I recently ran into someone who made fun of me for having a non-front line cleric with a Con of "only" 12, and claimed he would never make a PC of any type with a Con score that low.
His rude behavior aside, that got me thinking. What would the rest of you consider the minimum "reasonable" Con score? Does it depend on the class and role? Would you take Toughness and settle for a lower Con score?
I always go with 14.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It does depend on the class and role.
If I'm spending any time near the front lines, I want at least 8HP/level, more if feasible, especially if my AC is low-ish.
For my cleric, that means 14 CON and Toughness (my FCBs are going elsewhere) and a solid AC.
For a fighter, that might mean 12 CON and FCBs, or 14 CON, if I have a shield and good armor. If I'm not using a shield or otherwise have "compromised" AC, I'll probably want 14 CON and FCBs, and maybe Toughness to boot (depending on how bad my AC is).
If I'm going to be in the back a lot (primary caster, archer), I'll settle for something more like 6-7 HP/level. So a d6 caster with 14 CON (or 12 and FCBs/Toughness) or a d10 archer with 12 CON.
Minimum con? 8 if you expect to take hits, 6 if you don't. It's always nice to have a decent con, but people tend to exaggerate the necessity I find.
Right now I actually have a monk, as the only frontliner in a party, with 9 con. So far so good.
I play in one very combat-heavy campaign and in that one I wouldn't go below a 14, regardless of class.
In my other, more balanced RotRL campaign, I play a Conjuration Wizard. Con 12, Toughness, Favored Class bonuses to HP.
I think regardless of the campaign type or GM, I would have a hard time going below 12, unless the point buy is really small or the sessions are virtually guaranteed to see little threatening combat.
For melee martials 14 is pretty much the minimum
For ranged martials 12 is comfortable
For squishy mages I think 10 is okay especially once you finish the lower levels. But it can definitely get tense getting there.
This is post racial adjustment though. 8 Con on an Elven Wizard is just too soft.
if you are a front line melee martial with no reliable means of frequent self healing nor damage mitigation. i recommend a 14, upgraded by magic. you want at least 8HP per level
if you are primarily ranged, have a damn good AC or are not a primary combatant, such as most skill monkeys, dedicated healers, or arcane spellcasters, i recommend a minimum of 12. though you want at least 7HP per level. 6HP per level is risky unless you have either a good AC, some reliable form of damage mitigation or healing, or a divine caster heavy party
if you are a barbarian who is getting hit nonstop, the invulnerable rager archetype is a must, as is a 16 constitution, minimum, toughness and favored class HP. you want at least 10HP per level, before you factor rage. raging vitality may also be a requirement.
I have a whole squad of Characters with 10 Con and most of them didn´t have an issue with it.
I think 12 is perfectly fine, and a 14 would only be necessary if you are (1) a Dwarf with a racial bonus, (2) a front-liner with a d8 hit die, (3) a barbarian, or (4) paranoid.
I wouldn't go below 12 though; for a point-buy, it's really cheap for the benefits you get.
I can't think of the last time I went under 12.
Minimum "reasonable"?
An 8.
12 is as low as I go usually, though paladins can comfortably exist with 6-8 since the majority of their hp comes from Lay On Hands and not constitution.
My gnome wizard has 18 lol.
i once had a fetchling bard with a 7 constitution. and a 7 strength. whom had only 3 hit points per level. she avoided melee, used her allies for cover, created a lot of darkness to gain her fetchling concealment, and used suggestion to make baddies fight each other. out of combat, she was the face, despite her anemia, and she frequently used her small figure to pass herself off as a harmless child. she hated milk and especially hated liverwurst. her cohort was a brainwashed aasimaar life oracle with some martial ability whose whole purpose was to keep her big sister alive.
when the anemic gothic fetchling fauxlita reached 7th level, she only had 24 hit points.
Personally I think 8. I dont like having 8, but if I want to play a frail character I will do it for the sake of concept. It just usually means being very careful from tactics, and adding hp other ways. Usually its 12 though.
I'd say 10 just so you're not taking penalties and your Dex is going to be high.
At least 12-14 if you're not going to be an incredibly dextrous character.
I think I would go with a minimum constitution score of 10 since anything lower reduces your hit point death value below the 3.5 score of -10.
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People who are saying 8 are considering things like concept; I think reasonable is in terms of survivability (IMHO). This is irrespective of favoured class points, which I base entirely on how many skill points I've got to play with. If there's not enough skills, I'll put it there, otherwise it goes to HP.
- With that, the minimum I only ever deal with is 12. Anything lower is too low.
- I always aim for 14 first as "reasonable".
- I generally never take it to 16 because at that point you're burning stats pretty hard.
the lowest i used was a 12, not counting very specific concepts.
I go for 12-14 usually, maybe 16 if I can afford it. I'd rather get my AC up than my HP though.
I go for 12-14 usually, maybe 16 if I can afford it. I'd rather get my AC up than my HP though.
a 16 is a must for a barbarian, since there isn't much point in trying to maximize your AC when you are taking an AC penalty of 3+1/4 of your level.
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It depends on what stat bumps are like at later levels.
If I'm using a system where I get additional point buy per level (rather than straight attribute points) then I'll start with a 10 or 11 Con (or maybe even a 9) because I know I'll be able to easily raise it later and gain retroactive hit points.
If it's a system where I get additional attribute points at later levels -- which incentivizes adding to my highest stats -- then I'll start with either a 12 or 14 Con.
My sweetheart is currently running Council of Thieves for me alone. I play two characters, and to make up for being at least two characters short of a normal party, I started the campaign at level 3.
One character is a Gnome Sorceress with Con 14, whose favoured class bonus always goes towards skill points.
My second character is a Halfling Tiefling (customised merger of Tiefling and Halfling stats) Rogue with Con 13, plus the HP from favoured class.
Currently, they are level 6, and they're working out really well (though I burnt through quite a bit of money with scrolls and potions).
My life insurance: incredible Stealth and almost only ranged attacks. Actually, my Sorceress only recently got anything resembling a weapon since she only attacks with spells.
Best,
your crazy gnome from next door
I get very uncomfortable below 12. But a friend is currently playing with a halfling rogue with Con 7. I'm curious how that will end.
People who are saying 8 are considering things like concept; I think reasonable is in terms of survivability (IMHO). This is irrespective of favoured class points, which I base entirely on how many skill points I've got to play with. If there's not enough skills, I'll put it there, otherwise it goes to HP.
- With that, the minimum I only ever deal with is 12. Anything lower is too low.
- I always aim for 14 first as "reasonable".
- I generally never take it to 16 because at that point you're burning stats pretty hard.
^ all these
Con is the one stat that nobody who knows what they're doing ever dumps, just because everybody needs HP. Whenever I'm at a public PFS session and see a newbie making a character with a Con score below 10, or even right at 10, I warn them that they'll probably want to bump it up to at least 12, to aid in survivability.
I recently ran into someone who made fun of me for having a non-front line cleric with a Con of "only" 12, and claimed he would never make a PC of any type with a Con score that low.
His rude behavior aside, that got me thinking. What would the rest of you consider the minimum "reasonable" Con score? Does it depend on the class and role? Would you take Toughness and settle for a lower Con score?
I am sorry you thought I was rude. As I stated at the time, I thought you were making a melee cleric. My very high AC melee oracle has been at -13 4 times in 5 levels and at 1-3 hp numerous other times.
IMO, 12 con is the minimum reasonable for a close d8 caster (giving 7 hp a level) with moderate to low AC in PFS. Most casting clerics fall into this area as their spells tend to be closed ranged, making them within 30 feet of the front line, and more commonly 15-20 feet from the action. 15 ft is full attack range of the large creatures you will be fighting from level 3 or so, so you either need to be extremely careful or plan on taking a full attack at least once per level.
With that said, my one ranged character with a 12 con (due to the elf con penalty) likely died her one death from being at -1 hp right before her turn on round 2. However, as a witch with 12 con, I only got 6 hp a level.
As a side note, in PFS, you can never count on what your table might have so making things sturdy is always a good idea. For example, I recently ran a level 2 table without any melee characters. They literally just had to hope that they dropped things before they closed. Lucky, they pulled it off with 1 character still standing at the last fight and no one having bled out yet.
Imo, reasonable minimums:
6 hp per level for medium or long ranged characters
7 hp per level for close ranged characters
8 hp per level for high defense melee.
9 hp per level for normal defense melee.
11 or 12 hp per level for low defense melee.
If you can afford it, I always recommend a 14 con as it helps protect you against the low hp hits that tend to kill.
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I also have a slew of characters at 10 with very few problems. I can count on one finger the number of characters I have had die and need a resurrection within the last 6 years of RP.
I can count on one hand the number of characters I have had drop into negatives and need healing within the last 6 years.
I have never had a character go below an 8 CON, and I've only seen one player take his CON that low.
I have only 1 character ever to have a 18 CON, and that was my Summoner for the Eidolon life link ability.
I'd say about 90% of the characters I play have a CON of 10, with a few 12's and one or two 14's in there too.
A lot will depend on the Point Buy that we are assigned. Higher PB means higher CON after the primary stat and STR/DEX.
Mine is minimum of 10. Though I tend to hover at a Minimum of 14 for most of my characters since I tend to go Martial Characters.
+3 is what I tend to end up around. The only issue I've had with a character dying is my magus, but when your bursting everything to death, priorities tend to change.
A Paladin can actually dump CON if it gets you more LoH uses.
In skulls & shackles I'll be playing a female elf druid with a con score of 9. I'll be taking toughness at first level and putting my FCBs into skill points until 4th level. At 4th level, I'll put my stat point into con and then start putting FCBs into hit points. But from what I understand, skulls & shackles is pretty skill heavy early on. Also, Druids are d8 hit dice, and I'll be playing her as a primary caster (gave up animal companion for a domain), so I should be able to manage. That said I would be much more comfortable with a 10. I would have gotten that for sure on a point buy. Alas though, my group does standard array (which I prefer) and we got fairly poor rolls. Such is life (or death), lol.
I find that it definitely depends on what you are working with for stats.. obviously rolling can lead to all sorts of things.
If I am working with a 25 point buy, they will almost always have 14 or higher.
If I am working with a 20 point buy, they will have 14 or more if possible and necessary (melee type) but will often have 12.
If I am working with a 15 point buy, they will typically have 12, maybe even only 10 unless they are melee-focused.
I usually always work with 25 point buys though, and like 95% of the characters I build have a 14 in Con.
personally i go for between 12-14 for con, provided it's possible alongside whatever fits the character.
The absolute lowest I will ever drop Con as a PC is 10. Having a negative Con is unacceptable.
For NPCs that won't have a con score, like undead, I will drop the con to 7. I won't go any lower than that, because that's the lowest that a point buy will allow.
Cruel! I give my undead a 12 as well, since I assume that's what they had in life. Unless they really were frail in life.