How do the rules handle poison dilution? For example, if I take one 1 oz. dose of oil of taggit, and pour it into a large pool (5-ft. diameter, 1-ft. depth) rather than a drinking goblet? Is it less effective? Is there a possibility of it effecting multiple targets, should they drink from the same pool? What if I used multiple doses?
Same question, but with a cake. I bake a cake and poison it with a single dose king's sleep. The cake is then cut into 8 slices by a server and served to eight guests. What happens? What would happen differently if I put in 8 doses of poison prior to the cake being sliced?
The rules are clear that a person can suffer from multiple doses of inhaled poison simultaneously. But how do you apply this, exactly? Can I carry a fragile container filled with multiple doses of inhaled poison, such as an airtight glass flask, then simply throw it at my enemies' feet to create a (momentarily) dense gas cloud?
So...the cake is a lie?
How do the rules handle poison dilution? For example, if I take one 1 oz. dose of oil of taggit, and pour it into a large pool (5-ft. diameter, 1-ft. depth) rather than a drinking goblet? Is it less effective? Is there a possibility of it effecting multiple targets, should they drink from the same pool? What if I used multiple doses?
Same question, but with a cake. I bake a cake and poison it with a single dose king's sleep. The cake is then cut into 8 slices by a server and served to eight guests. What happens? What would happen differently if I put in 8 doses of poison prior to the cake being sliced?
RAW doesn't appear to cover this. You could work backwards from the fact that each additional dose adds +2 to the DC and increases the duration, but that is house rules territory.
Edit: Besides, of course, the Alchemist discovery.
The rules are clear that a person can suffer from multiple doses of inhaled poison simultaneously. But how do you apply this, exactly? Can I carry a fragile container filled with multiple doses of inhaled poison, such as an airtight glass flask, then simply throw it at my enemies' feet to create a (momentarily) dense gas cloud?
Again, I can't see anything by RAW. Does the poison spread out to its maximum size (10x10 for each dose) or does it create a single more dense 10x10 cloud? Perhaps this depends on the area where it is released (a small room in a dungeon that doesn't allow it to spread out)?
There have been some threads on poison recently and a general thought that has emerged are that poisons are more DM territory (as PC poison use is usually inefficient) so most of this stuff just gets interpreted by the DM using rule 0 in any given game.
I wish RAW was clearer on poisons and I'll be watching this thread for new info.
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There can be no RAW on this, as it is something that could never be covered in a general rule, or something that occurs often enough to warrant a specific rule. The GM will have to use their best judgement.
For the pool example, there are about 7.5 gallons per cubic foot of water, and 19.625 cubic feet of water in the pool. That is 147.1875 gallons or 18840 ounces that a 1 oz vial is being diluted into. I think it would be fair to say that the LD50 of that has been reduced to nearly nil, with 1.5 gallons being needed just to make a 1% solution. With that huge amount of fluid that the poison is being diluted into, I think a much grander scheme would need to be used than a few vials of poison.
The cake example would be one where the GM would need to decide how high heat effects the toxin. Again, it is something that is a fringe case that will ever be addressed directly in the rules. The GM will need to set up what is a creative solution and what would simply be ineffective. The core of the poison rules are combat based, so side cases with creative role-playing are going to be highly subjective. My personal view on the cake would be maybe having a sickened or nauseated condition for 24 hours on a failed save, depending on the number of vials added. I would not see it having full effect, but more a lesser variant of the stated effect.
The cake example would be one where the GM would need to decide how high heat effects the toxin.
The poison was placed into the cake after baking, not into the ingredients prior to baking.
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The cake example would be one where the GM would need to decide how high heat effects the toxin.The poison was placed into the cake after baking, not into the ingredients prior to baking.
In that instance, I would say that an even distribution of the poison would have its effect on those that ate a slice. The limited role-playing based rules come into effect, with how many servings does a dose of poison cover. A 1:1 ratio would be reasonable for full effect, with tiered lesser effects if it is spread around. So one dose per slice would have the full poison effect I would guess.
Example lesser effects on a failed save could be Con Damage->Nauseated(puking), Dex Damage->Staggered(Cramping), Str Damage->Sickened(Muscle weakness), Cha/Wis/Int Damage -> Dazed or a penalty to skill checks to related stat
The cake example would be one where the GM would need to decide how high heat effects the toxin.The poison was placed into the cake after baking, not into the ingredients prior to baking.In that instance, I would say that an even distribution of the poison would have its effect on those that ate a slice. The limited role-playing based rules come into effect, with how many servings does a dose of poison cover. A 1:1 ratio would be reasonable for full effect, with tiered lesser effects if it is spread around. So one dose per slice would have the full poison effect I would guess.
Example lesser effects on a failed save could be Con Damage->Nauseated(puking), Dex Damage->Staggered(Cramping), Str Damage->Sickened(Muscle weakness), Cha/Wis/Int Damage -> Dazed or a penalty to skill checks to related stat
I would run it as follows:
Assume we are talking about Arsenic (ingested, DC 13, 1/min.for 4 min. 1d2 Con, 1 save).
Splitting the first dose of Arsenic into two results in (ingested, DC 11, 1/min. for 2 min. 1d2 Con, 1 save).
Splitting the 1/2 doses of Arsenics into two each (thus 4 total) results in (ingested, DC 9, 1/min. for 1 min. 1d2 Con, 1 save).
Splitting the 1/4 doses of Arsenics into two each (thus 8 total) results in poison too dilute to have any effect OR results in (ingested, DC 7, 1/min. for 1 min. 1d2 Con, 1 save). Probably go for the latter, rather than the former.
This is based on a reversal of the rules for adding additional doses of a poison. It's not perfect, but it has some links to RAW (though in no way actually RAW).
EDIT: The problem with using something like the nauseated condition is that, under certain circumstances, this would be more powerful than the full strength poison. In combat, a diluted CON poison which causes nauseated might be considered better than the undiluted version which does not.
Whale:
I would think that halving the dose would halve the effect, but would maintain the same difficulty to overcome (DC). Either it affects you or it doesn't, but if it does, it's not as bad. So, 1/2 the poison would just do 1 CON damage and 1/4 would have no effect other than to make you feel bad momentarily. Or perhaps you lower the DC only after reducing the damage to it's minimum possibility.
Also consider this from a game mechanic POV, which is the basis (supposedly) for the cost of a lot of the poisons. If you can disburse a single dose of poison to multiple targets, then you could theoretically put a table of commoners to sleep with a single dose of poison. Sure, it's not likely, but it's possible. And that sounds like it could be overpowered accordingly.
One dose of Purple Worm distributed 8 ways to 8 3rd level soldiers would give a 18 DC requiring a 2 consecutive rolls of 15+ to save. Chances are you would have at least 7 guards reduced to 0 - 2 Str in just over 30 seconds. All you need is a Rogue Poisoner to convert it from an injury poison to an ingestion poison. That's a lot of effect for 700 gp, I think.
Not arguing against your approach, just throwing out something to consider.
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Whale:
I would think that halving the dose would halve the effect, but would maintain the same difficulty to overcome (DC). Either it affects you or it doesn't, but if it does, it's not as bad. So, 1/2 the poison would just do 1 CON damage and 1/4 would have no effect other than to make you feel bad momentarily. Or perhaps you lower the DC only after reducing the damage to it's minimum possibility.
Also consider this from a game mechanic POV, which is the basis (supposedly) for the cost of a lot of the poisons. If you can disburse a single dose of poison to multiple targets, then you could theoretically put a table of commoners to sleep with a single dose of poison. Sure, it's not likely, but it's possible. And that sounds like it could be overpowered accordingly.
One dose of Purple Worm distributed 8 ways to 8 3rd level soldiers would give a 18 DC requiring a 2 consecutive rolls of 15+ to save. Chances are you would have at least 7 guards reduced to 0 - 2 Str in just over 30 seconds. All you need is a Rogue Poisoner to convert it from an injury poison to an ingestion poison. That's a lot of effect for 700 gp, I think.
Not arguing against your approach, just throwing out something to consider.
I certainly wouldn't hold it against a DM who wanted to run it a different way, but I prefer to try and create links to RAW (or 3.5, if there is nothing in PF to work from) when writing house rules. There is no precedent for changing the damage of a poison (that I know of), just the difficulty to resist it and its frequency (this is true of all alchemist and rogue abilities I know of).
Consider that mixing two doses of Arsenic results in (ingested, DC 15, 1/min.for 6 min. 1d2 Con, 1 save). Cutting this potent Arsenic in two using my method ends up resulting in two normal doses of Arsenic (if you use the base duration of Arsenic and not the new duration; if you use the new duration of the potent arsenic you would create Arsenic with a 3 minute duration. This could represent waste in the mixing process.).
I don't find a problem with your hypothetical uses of diluted poison. For instance, purple worm poison costs 700 gp. If a player wants to waste that much to deal with level 3 guards (CR 1 creatures), I don't think it will affect game balance as any number of magical effects costing in the same neighborhood (or, more importantly, free when used by a wizard) could similarly incapacitate them. Poison is underpowered as it is (you would need to use the black market to get the poison; you would also need to deliver the poison to the food of the guards, which creates its own problems; when the first guy starts instantly taking str damage, his comrades probably won't eat any assuming they don't all start eating during the same 6 seconds).
Edit: There is also the argument that converted poisons should use the onset times of poisons of that type. This makes a lot of sense to me. If that were the case, it would hurt or help depending on the circumstances.
Personally, I'd like to see the poison rules completely rewritten to make it a viable play-style for a rogue and to clear up all these strange cases.
You and me both, friend!