PFS Fighter (Weapon Master) 1 using a large-sized Bastard Sword?


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Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was playing around in Hero Lab and threw together a Human Weapon Master with Weapon Focus Bastard Sword.

Bastard Swords can be wielded two-handedly as a martial weapon and one-handed if you have exotic training. This character does not have the Exotic Weapon feat.

I threw on a Large-Sized Bastard Sword, equipped it for both hands and it passed all validation checks and is showing as legal gear:

Bastard Sword (Large)
Two-handed - [Melee +6] [2d8+8] [19-20 x2]

It is my understanding that, when you wield a weapon that is a size larger than you, it requires an extra level of 'handedness' to use (light, one-handed, two-handed, unusable) and since this build does not have the ability to normally wield a Bastard Sword with one hand then I cannot two-hand a Large bastard sword.

Am I mistaken about this or did I, in fact, find a bug in Hero Lab?

Thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Herolab is not a Paizo product.

You need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.


You did find a Hero Lab bug.

A Large Bastard Sword can only be wielded in 2 hands by a Medium PC, and they must have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat in order to do so. Without it, they can't wield it at all due to requiring 3 hands to even use it.

Even with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you still suffer a -2 Size Difference Penalty (which is not reflected in the bonus to hit calculations).

Shadow Lodge

Yes, I do not expect it to be the final arbiter or the rulings; I had hopes that perhaps I was overlooking something.
Thanks.

(EDIT) - So HL doesn't reflect size penalties in their attack bonuses normally or should I just not reference it due to the previous mistake with this particular situation?


Cainnech wrote:

Yes, I do not expect it to be the final arbiter or the rulings; I had hopes that perhaps I was overlooking something.

Thanks.

(EDIT) - So HL doesn't reflect size penalties in their attack bonuses normally or should I just not reference it due to the previous mistake with this particular situation?

I generally do stats and such handcrafted, and by scratch. When first making a character this doesn't get to be so difficult.

Silver Crusade

Wielding a weapon of inappropriate size has defined game effects; the qualities of a weapon (such as trip, reach, the ability to be drawn as ammunition, the ability to use it two-handed with martial weapon proficiency) remain unaffected by size differences.

If a bastard sword were a two-handed weapon that could be used one-handed if you had the EWP (bastard sword) feat, then there might be a case. But a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon!

The EWP feat allows you to use it one-handed without penalty. If you don't have the EWP you can still use it one-handed but you'll take a -4 attack penalty.

Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon if sized for you. A large bastard sword is a two-handed weapon for a medium character. So, you can use it in two hands, no problem!

But what proficiency is required? Are you using it in two hands? Yes, you must; it's a two-handed weapon for you!

Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

So, no EWP needed, just proficiency with martial weapons. : )

Makes sense. The EWP trains you to use it proficiently in one hand. But you're not using it in one hand; you can't, because a large bastard sword is a two-handed weapon for you.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',
which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that.
so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.

Silver Crusade

Quandary wrote:

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',

which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that.
so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.

Not only is that the RAW, but since all the EWP (bastard sword) feat does is train you to use it one-handed, it would be irrelevant in helping you use it two-handed! Such as when using a large one!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A Bastard Sword is a one-handed exotic weapon. A medium creature treats a large Bastard Sword as a two-handed exotic weapon.

A Bastard Sword can be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon, but just like any other exotic weapon, a Bastard Sword can be wielded as an exotic weapon, without the proficiency, taking a -4 penalty.

Hence, a medium creature without EWP can wield a large Bastard Sword with a -6 penalty (this penalty is reduced to a -2 if they are proficient).


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quandary wrote:

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',

which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that.
so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.
Not only is that the RAW, but since all the EWP (bastard sword) feat does is train you to use it one-handed, it would be irrelevant in helping you use it two-handed! Such as when using a large one!

What?

EWP certainly does help you wield it two-handed in this case. A medium creature cannot wield a large Bastard Sword as a two-handed martial weapon, as the 'handedness' would scale up to un-wieldable as per the inapropriately sized weapon rules.

Silver Crusade

Quantum Steve wrote:

A Bastard Sword is a one-handed exotic weapon. A medium creature treats a large Bastard Sword as a two-handed exotic weapon.

A Bastard Sword can be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon, but just like any other exotic weapon, a Bastard Sword can be wielded as an exotic weapon, without the proficiency, taking a -4 penalty.

Hence, a medium creature without EWP can wield a large Bastard Sword with a -6 penalty (this penalty is reduced to a -2 if they are proficient).

Really?

Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

It's only exotic for the purposes of using it one-handed. If you're using it two-handed it's a martial weapon, at any size!


...That makes no sense Malachi. Are you going to argue that a Colossal Bastard Sword can be wielded in 2 hands as a Martial Weapon because the RAW says you can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon? Don't be ridiculous.

There is still a -2 size penalty due to the weapon being inappropriately sized (which isn't factored into the Hero Lab calc that the OP linked), meaning regardless of it being two-handed, Hero Lab calculated the bonuses to hit incorrectly.

It's an exotic weapon to wield it 1-handed. No feat = -4 Penalty to use (which stacks with the size penalty, to a total of -6). You can use it as a two-handed martial weapon, but making it a Large Bastard Sword bumps up the hand category requirements by 1, meaning you must at least have 3 hands to wield a Large Bastard Sword as a Martial Weapon. You can still wield the Large Bastard Sword as a two-handed Exotic Weapon, but you still suffer a -2 penalty to size, assuming you took the feat for proficiency.

Silver Crusade

Quantum Steve wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quandary wrote:

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',

which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that.
so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.
Not only is that the RAW, but since all the EWP (bastard sword) feat does is train you to use it one-handed, it would be irrelevant in helping you use it two-handed! Such as when using a large one!

What?

EWP certainly does help you wield it two-handed in this case. A medium creature cannot wield a large Bastard Sword as a two-handed martial weapon, as the 'handedness' would scale up to un-wieldable as per the inapropriately sized weapon rules.

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. It doesn't become a two-handed weapon just because you use it in two hands, any more than a longsword becomes a two-handed weapon when you use it two-handed.

Both a longsword and a bastard sword used two-handed remain one-handed weapons used in two hands!

A large longsword is a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.
A large bastard sword is a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quandary wrote:

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',

which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that.
so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.
Not only is that the RAW, but since all the EWP (bastard sword) feat does is train you to use it one-handed, it would be irrelevant in helping you use it two-handed! Such as when using a large one!

What?

EWP certainly does help you wield it two-handed in this case. A medium creature cannot wield a large Bastard Sword as a two-handed martial weapon, as the 'handedness' would scale up to un-wieldable as per the inapropriately sized weapon rules.

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. It doesn't become a two-handed weapon just because you use it in two hands, any more than a longsword becomes a two-handed weapon when you use it two-handed.

Both a longsword and a bastard sword used two-handed remain one-handed weapons used in two hands!

A large longsword is a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.
A large bastard sword is a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.

Bastard Sword is a one-handed Exotic Weapon, as per the Weapon Table. The Large Bastard Sword is inappropriately sized for a Medium sized character. Because of this, it takes a -2 size penalty to hit, and the hands require to wield it is scaled up as well.

Yes, they do remain one-handed weapons. Longsword is a one-handed Martial Weapon as per the Weapon Table. Bastard Sword is an Exotic Weapon. Non-proficiency in the Bastard Sword makes a -4 to hit. It can be used as a two-handed Martial Weapon (as per the description), given that the weapon is appropriately sized. If it isn't, then obviously the description will be adjusted due to RAW statements, meaning no Colossal Bastard Sword as a two-handed weapon.

So let's break this down again:

Medium Bastard Sword as Exotic: 1-Handed.
Medium Bastard Sword as Martial: 2-Handed.
Large Bastard sword as Exotic: 2-Handed.
Large Bastard Sword as Martial: 3-Handed+.

The conclusion? Characters using a Large Bastard Sword in 2 hands must have Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Even with EWP, they still suffer a -2 to hit due to inappropriate size.

Silver Crusade

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

...That makes no sense Malachi. Are you going to argue that a Colossal Bastard Sword can be wielded in 2 hands as a Martial Weapon because the RAW says you can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon? Don't be ridiculous.

There is still a -2 size penalty due to the weapon being inappropriately sized (which isn't factored into the Hero Lab calc that the OP linked), meaning regardless of it being two-handed, Hero Lab calculated the bonuses to hit incorrectly.

It's an exotic weapon to wield it 1-handed. No feat = -4 Penalty to use (which stacks with the size penalty, to a total of -6). You can use it as a two-handed martial weapon, but making it a Large Bastard Sword bumps up the hand category requirements by 1, meaning you must at least have 3 hands to wield a Large Bastard Sword as a Martial Weapon. You can still wield the Large Bastard Sword as a two-handed Exotic Weapon, but you still suffer a -2 penalty to size, assuming you took the feat for proficiency.

A bastard sword is a one handed weapon. Assuming a medium-sized wielder, a large bastard sword would be a two-handed weapon, and a huge (or bigger) bastard sword would take it beyond two-handed, rendering it unusable. So, no colossal bastard sword for you. : )

It would be ridiculous to argue that you can, but fortunately no-one is!

Of course there is a -2 penalty because of the one-step size difference; I haven't seen anyone say otherwise!

Making it large 'bumps up the hand category requirements by 1.' From one-handed to two-handed. The presence or absence of the EWP in no way affects the size of the sword, nor it's categorisation as a one-handed weapon!

Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Note that, when used two-handed, it does not become a two-handed weapon, any more than a longsword would become a different category just because you use it in two hands!


It is alwasy the same problem: The Bastardsword IS a onehanded weapon according to the tables. It has the hp and hardness of a onehanded weapon and everything else.
So RAW I would say Malachi is right. That this isn't RAI should be clear. But this can happen if something is badly worded.

Had they made the bastardsword a two-handed weapon that can be used onehanded with the EWP we would not have all those problems. But then it had the hp, hardness and all other rules of two-handed weapons and this, seemingly, was not wanted.

It is the same problem when talking about a magus and the bastard sword. Even if he doesn't have the ewp it still IS a onehanded weapon (which you need two hands to use) so if he manages to still have a hand free he can use the bastard sword with spell combat because it is a onehanded weapon. For example a alchemist 2/magus x could use an bastard sword twohanded and use spellcombat because he meets the requirements of using a onehanded weapon while having one hand free.
This, too is surely not RAI but RAW. (and I'm not sure if I'd let it go in my homegame)

Silver Crusade

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Medium Bastard Sword as Exotic: 1-Handed.

Medium Bastard Sword as Martial: 2-Handed.

Wrong! A medium bastard sword used two-handed is not a two-handed weapon! It is a one-handed weapon used two-handed!

In the game system there are three categories of weapons: light, one-handed and two-handed. Two-handed weapons require two hands available to use it; you can't attack with a two-handed weapon if you only have one hand available to use it. You can just hold it in one hand, no problem.

A one-handed weapon requires one hand available to use it to attack. However, you may use a one-handed weapon in two hands, and if you do you get one-and-a-half times your Str bonus to damage. The weapon remains a one-handed weapon even if you use it in two hands!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Basically, it's a One-Handed Exotic weapon with a special feature.

Treat it as such.


A fighter can wield a one handed weapon in one or two hands without penalty or special feat investment.

Can a fighter do that with a bastard sword? No.

Large bastard sword without EWP
-2 to hit due to weapon size
-4 to hit due to not profficient with the weapon

Large bastard sword with EWP
-2 to hit due to weapon size

Following the weapon size rules a medium creature can only wield a large one handed weapon with two hands. To do so you must be able to wield the related medium size weapon in one hand. You only can wield a bastard sword in one hand with EWP or a -4 penalty.


Amiri the iconic barbarian has the exotic weapon proficiency to use her large bastard sword so i would conclude that you do need it to avoid the nwp penalty.


Bertious wrote:
Amiri the iconic barbarian has the exotic weapon proficiency to use her large bastard sword so i would conclude that you do need it to avoid the nwp penalty.

That this is RAI should be out of question.


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quandary wrote:

yeah, i think the intent for that last bolded sentence is: 'can use as a martial two-handed weapon',

which would mean that a medium char couldn't use a large bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon,
but could only use it as a 1-handed exotic in two hands... but RAW doesn't say that. so I think HL is technically correct regarding RAW here.
Not only is that the RAW, but since all the EWP (bastard sword) feat does is train you to use it one-handed, it would be irrelevant in helping you use it two-handed! Such as when using a large one!

Yes, functionally there is no difference here to the current RAW "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." in that both EWP and (special) 2-handed usage of Bastard Sword as Martial (NOT CHANGING WEAPON TYPE FROM 1HANDED TO 2HANDED) are both removing non-proficiency penalties (if you have all-Martial proficiency). But I'm 99% certain that the RAI is 'use as a martial two-handed weapon' in which case EWP does become needed to use a Oversized Bastard Sword without taking non-proficiency penalties. I encourage everybody to hit FAQ on my above post or this one.

Silver Crusade

If the weapon tables had two entries for bastard sword, one as a one-handed exotic weapon and another as a two-handed martial weapon, then you would need the EWP to use a large bastard sword.

But this is not the case.

It is always a one-handed weapon, whether it is used one OR two-handed!

Therefore, as a one-handed weapon, a large bastard sword is a two-handed sword for a medium creature, and what weapon proficiencies a potential wielder has are completely and absolutely irrelevant! It is what it is!

Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

This special quality of bastard swords does not go away if the sword and wielder are of different sizes!

Those worrying about RAI; since the EWP represents training to use it one-handed without penalty, and since the weapon description specifically says that's it's an exotic weapon because it's difficult to use it one-handed, the EWP makes no sense when using it two-handed.

I actually used to think the other way! I assumed that, when used two-handed that it became a two-handed weapon! I was wrong. My assumption fell by the wayside as soon as I actually bothered to read the RAW, and understand the ramifications. My day was not spoiled! It all made sense! It shouldn't bother anyone any more than using any other large one-handed weapon!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bertious wrote:
Amiri the iconic barbarian has the exotic weapon proficiency to use her large bastard sword so i would conclude that you do need it to avoid the nwp penalty.

She also still uses it at a penalty as stated in her text. She still takes the standard minuses for using an oversize weapon. She usually however rages to offset them.


The sword itself is a Large bastard sword. She has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), allowing her to wield Medium bastard swords one-handed and Large bastard swords two-handed.

(stuff)
SO, she wields the Large bastard sword two handed, but since it's a size category too large for her, she takes a –2 penalty with attack rolls. The only way she can "wield it proper" is when she enters her rage and becomes SUPER STRONG... her bonus to Strength perfectly offsets the penalty for wielding the big sword, which is a pretty cool way of modeling a barbarian who can't properly use her weapon except when she's really angry.

As folks have noted, our iconic barbarian Amiri does this exact thing; she uses a Large bastard sword she got from a dead giant as her primary weapon. The ONLY way that she can wield such a weapon is by using it two-handed as an exotic weapon—thus, she has to have the Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) feat, and even then suffers a –2 penalty to attack rolls with it. Part of her story flavor is that she "can only properly wield the sword when she's raging" (as in, the +2 bonus to hit she gets cancels out her –2 penalty for wielding an oversized weapon).

If she didn't have the Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) feat, she can only use the weapon as a two handed weapon. Medium creatures simply cannot properly wield Large two handed weapons, so without the feat, she could CARRRY the sword but she couldn't use it.
(stuff about improvised weapons)
If you're playing in the Pathfinder Society org play campaign, you need Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) as a feat to use it.

Your GM can, of course, rule otherwise, but the "penalty" is that, without the Exotic Weapon feat, you simply can not use a bastard sword in one hand.

Silver Crusade

Bastard Sword is an Exotic 1H Weapon.

If you wield it without the EWP feat, its -4, unless you can are proficient with martial weapons and can do so 2 handed.

The 'handedness' of a weapon in not a weapon specific trait, but is one assigned to it by the relative size of the weapon and the size of its wielder.

Quote:

Weapon Size

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

You can wield oversized weapons, with an increase in hands required per size increase step, as well as a cumulative -2 penalty per size category. M to L in this case is 1h to 2h and a -2 penalty.

So a Medium creature wielding a Large Bastard Sword who is:

a)not proficient with martial weapons and does not possess EWP:BSw could weild this weapon using 2 hands, facing a -6 penalty. (-4 non-proficiency, -2 wrong size)

b)is proficient with martial weapons and does not possess EWP:BSw is facing a -6 penalty and must wield the weapon in two hands. (-4 non-exotic proficiency, -2 wrong size)

or c) has EWP:BSw is facing a -2 penalty from the size change, and still must wield it in both hands.

Silver Crusade

Booksy wrote:
b)is proficient with martial weapons and does not possess EWP:BSw is facing a -6 penalty and must wield the weapon in two hands. (-4 non-exotic proficiency, -2 wrong size)

Lacking the EWP is not relevant, because:-

Bastard Sword wrote:
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon

Since you're using it two-handed, according to the special quality of bastard swords, you're using it as a martial weapon. This means that if you're proficient in martial weapons, you are proficient with a bastard sword when using it two-handed. If you lack martial weapon proficiency you'd take the -4 penalty.

Not having the exotic weapon proficiency doesn't hurt you, because it isn't required. Only martial weapon proficiency is required. 'A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.'


I understand what it means now; the thing is, a PC can wield a Large Bastard Sword in two hands. The special "Martial Proficiency" clause listed in its ability is making much more confusion than needed.

I will say that while yes, a PC can use a Large Bastard sword in two hands, but that it can only be wielded in two hands, and that the PC would have to be proficient with it in order to not suffer a -6 penalty to hit.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Those worrying about RAI; since the EWP represents training to use it one-handed without penalty, and since the weapon description specifically says...

...I actually used to think the other way! ...My assumption fell by the wayside as soon as I actually bothered to read the RAW

Malachi, do you know what "RAI" means?

Because it seems very strange when you claim to address arguments of RAI, but then go on to just rely on RAW.

You yourself say that if it were worded as I believe the intent really is, it wouldn't work like you're describing. Besides that JJ's opinion matches this differently worded possible RAI, there isn't any proof, but there isn't any proof that the current RAW is truly intended either. Given that JJ's response didn't directly address a RAI function in explicit contrast to the actual RAW, I don't think his response is STRONG evidence of an actual varying intent, but it definitely doesn't rule it out either.

I understand that other posters here clearly aren't quite as receptive to recognizing the RAW as it is, but conflating RAI and RAW doesn't clear that up at all. ACCURATELY respecting the distinction of RAI and RAW is exactly the type of discourse which would probably HELP others recognize the justified implications of the current RAW and how that diverges from how they may understand/believe the intended function to be (which should be worded 'as a two-handed weapon' NOT 'in two hands' (without changing weapon class, ala the current RAW) if it were to work as JJ describes).

I hope they Errata it if the RAW is wrong. Please hit the FAQ button, people.

Silver Crusade

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I will say that while yes, a PC can use a Large Bastard sword in two hands, but that it can only be wielded in two hands, and that the PC would have to be proficient with it in order to not suffer a -6 penalty to hit.

All correct.

Note that 'proficiency' of any kind is never required in order to use any weapon! All 'proficiency' does is stop you from taking a -4 'non-proficiency penalty'!

Further, the kind of proficiency required to use a bastard sword in one hand and avoid the penalty is the 'exotic' proficiency.

The kind of proficiency required to use a bastard sword in two hands without the penalty is the 'martial' proficiency, and this is true no matter the size of the wielder or weapon!

Lack of proficiency never stops you from using a weapon, but a weapon being too big or too small will prevent you from using it! If it is outside the light/one-handed/two-handed categories after adjusting for size, then the weapon is unusable. Is that the case here? No!

Let's summarise: for a medium wielder, if the bastard sword is sized for a medium creature it's a one-handed weapon, if sized for a small creature it's a light weapon, if sized for a tiny or smaller creature it's unusable. If sized for a large creature it's a two-handed weapon, if sized for a huge or bigger creature it's unusable.

So, a bastard sword sized for a large creature is a usable, two-handed weapon for a medium creature.

Proficiency is not required to wield a weapon at all, it just let's you avoid the -4 non-proficiency penalty. According to the rules for bastard swords, 'A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.' It's not okay to just ignore this rule, then pretend to the rest of us that this rule doesn't exist!


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
'A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.' It's not okay to just ignore this rule, then pretend to the rest of us that this rule doesn't exist!

If you are required to use two hands to wield this as a martial weapon, then the handedness of this weapon using the martial proficiency is 2. If you increase the size to a large size then that increases the handedness by 1 to 3 and therefore are unable to use this weapon utilizing martial weapon proficiency. Even thought this is a 1 handed weapon the chain of events go like this:

Medium Bastard sword with EWP = 1 hand
Medium Bastard sword with MWP = 2 hands
Large Bastard sword with EWP(increases by 1) = 2 hands
Large Bastard sword with MWP(increases by 1) = 3 hands

So no you cannot wield a large bastard sword with only MWP it is impossible.


'can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.' DOES NOT EQUAL 'can use a bastard sword as a martial two-handed weapon'.
the first (RAW) isn't saying anything that would change the 'class' (light/1h/2h) of the weapon. (the latter example does, but isn't RAW)
light and 1h weapons can be used with two hands, doing so has a specific mechanical benefit for 1h weapons, which aren't changed to '2h weapons' when they are wielded with 2 hands.


So what you're saying is that a one handed bastard sword that REQUIRES (i can use caps too) the use of two hands if utilizing MWP does not follow the rules for handedness when going up a size category and just bypasses it because it's special? So it is a one handed weapon that requires two hands to use i.e. handedness = 2 so a large bastard sword would be a one handed weapon that requires the use of two hands as well? then what's to stop you from wielding a colossol bastard sword? A colossal bastard sword is a one handed weapon where you

Quandary wrote:
'can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.'

so it should totally be ok as well right?


No, because a colossal weapon would be shifted more than one 'ease' category, from 1h to 2h to illegal.
In other words, a medium character can use an (effectively, for them) 2-handed weapon (large 1h weapon: bastard sword) with two hands as a martial weapon.
I don't believe that's the INTENT (without EWP), but that's the RAW.
The RAW of Bastard Sword don't affect the 'ease' category (light, 1h, 2h), and one can 'use a weapon two-handed' regardless of ease category (as long as it's a valid weapon for you to wield, which colossal weapons aren't). The martial weapon special feature of bastard swords doesn't care about correct sizing or effective ease category, it just cares if you are using it with 2 hands or not.

BTW, I put 'DOES NOT EQUAL' in caps because I thought it was more broadly understandable to spell it out rather than use the '=/=' symbol I originally used, and I felt caps were appropriate to designate such a mathematical symbol, since I wasn't writing a normal sentence as much as I was a mathematical formula. Or I could have just been emphasizing something in the easiest manner available by this medium, which most people can read and pass on. Your contribution of 'I can use caps too' is duly noted though. Bravo.


Shinigaze wrote:
So what you're saying is that a one handed bastard sword that REQUIRES (i can use caps too) the use of two hands if utilizing MWP does not follow the rules for handedness when going up a size category and just bypasses it because it's special? So it is a one handed weapon that requires two hands to use i.e. handedness = 2 so a large bastard sword would be a one handed weapon that requires the use of two hands as well?

No it would be a two-handed weapon requiring two hands to use.

Nothing in the RAW indicates that the numer of hands you require changes. Only the actual size changes.

If the rule was: It is a onehanded weapon that behaves like a twohanded weapon if used with MWP this would be different.


You can wield a large bastard sword without EWP but you get an additional penalty. Following the weapon size rules a medium creature can only wield a large one handed weapon with two hands. To do so you must be able to wield the related medium size weapon in one hand. You only can wield a bastard sword in one hand with EWP or a -4 penalty.

Large bastard sword without EWP
-2 to hit due to weapon size
-4 to hit due to not profficient with the weapon

Large bastard sword with EWP
-2 to hit due to weapon size


Eridan wrote:
To do so you must be able to wield the related medium size weapon in one hand.

Where does it say so?

If this is RAW my argumentation is proven wrong. But I really think this is only RAI.


Let me propose a thought experiment that may settle this.

What if a wizard wants to wield a bastard sword?

The wizard does not have martial weapon proficiency. The wizard does not have the exotic weapon proficiency feat for the bastard sword. Thus, no matter what, he's not proficient with the weapon. What does this mean when he tries to wield it?

Lets start with a longsword. A longsword is a one-handed martial weapon. The wizard is not proficient with it, so he takes a -4 penalty when he tries to wield it. Since it's a one-handed weapon, he can use it in either one hand or two hands. Either way, he still takes the penalty.

Now, lets size it up. A Large longsword wielded by a Medium character is still a one-handed weapon, but you wield it as if it were a two-handed weapon. This applies another -2 penalty. So our wizard would be wielding a large longsword in two hands with a -6 penalty.

Back to the bastard sword. A bastard sword is a one-handed exotic weapon. The wizard is not proficient with it, so he takes a -4 penalty when he tries to wield it. Since it's a one-handed weapon, he can use it in either one hand or two hands. Either way, he still takes the penalty. Wielding it "as a martial weapon" does nothing for him.

Now, lets size it up. A Large bastard sword wielded by a Medium character is still a one-handed weapon, but you wield it as if it were a two-handed weapon. This applies another -2 penalty. So our wizard would be wielding a large bastard sword in two hands with a -6 penalty. The clause about using it as a martial weapon is irrelevant, because he's not proficient either way.

In conclusion, if a wizard can wield a Large bastard sword in two hands with a -6 penalty, then a character who is proficient in martial weapons can still wield a Large bastard sword in two hands with a -6 penalty.


Bobson wrote:

What if a wizard wants to wield a bastard sword?

The wizard does not have martial weapon proficiency. The wizard does not have the exotic weapon proficiency feat for the bastard sword. Thus, no matter what, he's not proficient with the weapon. What does this mean when he tries to wield it?

Per just the book, no context, RAW only: Medium-sized bastard sword in whatever hands he likes at -4 penalty. Large-sized bastard sword in whatever hands at -6.

Per the RAI via James Jacobs: Medium-sized bastard sword in two hands only at -4. Cannot wield in one hand. Cannot wield large size.

Sczarni

RAW Malachi is correct. RAI is clearly different as evident from the James Jacobs post re: the iconic Barbarian.

This confusion would have been avoided if the Bastard Sword was list as a 2 handed weapon, and EWP gave characters the ability to treat it as a 1 handed weapon.

As it stands there is definitely implied contradictions and here we are...


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You did find a Hero Lab bug.

A Large Bastard Sword can only be wielded in 2 hands by a Medium PC, and they must have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat in order to do so. Without it, they can't wield it at all due to requiring 3 hands to even use it.

Even with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you still suffer a -2 Size Difference Penalty (which is not reflected in the bonus to hit calculations).

Without proficiency you should still be able to wield it two-handed, but you incur the extra -4 for using a weapon you're unproficient with (landing you at -6).

You can use an appropriately sized bastard sword one-handed but if you're not proficient with it, you take the -4 penalty. Alternatively you can use it two-handed as though it were a martial weapon.

If you scale the weapon up one category, you can use it as though it were a one-handed large exotic weapon, meaning as a medium character you have to wield it two-handed and incur a -4 penalty for not being proficient with it unless you have the feat. Or you use it three-handed as a martial weapon (but chances are your race isn't three-handed)

Dark Archive

Very simple.

As hands needed for proper wielding increase with size, a large bastard sword may be wielded by a medium creature as a martial weapon in three hands or two-handed as an exotic weapon.

Even James Jacobs agrees.

The hand requirements in the description must also be sized up. Claiming none of that matters because it's a one-handed weapon when medium-sized is some loony stuff no good GM should allow.


Umbranus wrote:
Shinigaze wrote:
So what you're saying is that a one handed bastard sword that REQUIRES (i can use caps too) the use of two hands if utilizing MWP does not follow the rules for handedness when going up a size category and just bypasses it because it's special? So it is a one handed weapon that requires two hands to use i.e. handedness = 2 so a large bastard sword would be a one handed weapon that requires the use of two hands as well?

No it would be a two-handed weapon requiring two hands to use.

Nothing in the RAW indicates that the numer of hands you require changes. Only the actual size changes.

If the rule was: It is a onehanded weapon that behaves like a twohanded weapon if used with MWP this would be different.

I hate it when this happens. After re-reading the book to provide a better counterpoint I realize that as an argument vs RAW you are correct.

A bastard sword is listed as a one-handed weapon, the rules for increasing in size only say that the weapon category changes to one step higher i.e. light=one-handed, one-handed=two-handed, two-handed=impossible. Because there is no mention anywhere that a bastard sword becomes a two-handed weapon just that you can use MWP to wield it two handed an increase to large size only increases the category of the weapon from one-handed to two-handed and the "use two hands to wield it using MWP" rule still applies. If arguin RAW you are correct, but as stated earlier the obvious RAI is that it shouldn't work this way. Much in the same way that they made a general rule for handedness of firearms without thinking people would apply this to larger sized firearms it seems the developers didn't take into account all the rules when creating this weapon.


Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:

Very simple.

As hands needed for proper wielding increase with size, a large bastard sword may be wielded by a medium creature as a martial weapon in three hands or two-handed as an exotic weapon.

Even James Jacobs agrees.

The hand requirements in the description must also be sized up. Claiming none of that matters because it's a one-handed weapon when medium-sized is some loony stuff no good GM should allow.

Unfortunately under the rules for inappropriately sized weapons the explicit RAW says nothing about the hand requirements.

Rules:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

All it says is that the weapon increases a size category to two-handed and the description under bastard sword says that using it with two hands is allowed using MWP. This is a RAW argument and the only one that is being made. Is this a loophole? Yes. Should this be allowed? No. Per RAW is this allowed within the confines of the rules? Yes.

Dark Archive

I don't understand how the special rule for bastard swords does not equal you treating it as a 2 handed weapon when you don't have EWP. "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon" not equaling it being treated as a two handed weapon when you're wielding it that way is a pretty massive leap of logic. which makes it not RAW as far as I'm concerned.

The weapons HP is based off of what table it's on, but I don't see how it's shouldn't be treated at a two handed weapon for purposes of wielding it.


I guess this has become an argument over semantics. Some people read it as:

"You can wield this one-handed weapon using two hands"

Meaning it is still a one-handed weapon and gets stepped up only to a two-handed weapon.

While others read it as:

"You can wield this bastard sword as a two handed weapon"

Meaning the bastard sword is changed to a two handed weapon when using MWP and when stepped up goes to an impossible to wield weapon.

The argument for the first one seems to be if I wield a one handed weapon in two hands it doesn't automatically step up to a two handed weapon, therefore the same logic applies to the bastard sword because the description states "can wield the bastard sword in two hands" not "can wield the bastard sword as a two handed weapon" and when it increases to large size goes up one category to a two handed weapon.

Silver Crusade

Despite the RAW being clear to those who (finally) comprehend it, I'd like to address the RAI.

While reading this thread it has become apparent that, even among those who agree that it's RAW, that somehow it's not RAI. I disagree. (we're all only speculating on RAI, BTW)

Sword, Bastard wrote:
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon.

The only thing the EWP does is train you to use it in one hand! Why on earth would it help you use it in two hands, just because it's bigger?

The only reason it's an exotic weapon at all is because it's 'too large to use in one hand without special training!' That 'special training' is the EWP feat, which trains you to use it in one hand! Again, it makes no sense to believe that it would help you to use it in two hands!

It's not some kind of sneaky, underhand rules cheese! It's not only RAW, it makes perfect sense!


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
While reading this thread it has become apparent that, even among those who agree that it's RAW, that somehow it's not RAI. I disagree. (we're all only speculating on RAI, BTW)

The RAI seems to pretty clearly intend for you to need EWP to wield a large bastard sword. As mentioned before, the iconic barbarian of pathfinder, i.e. the picture of the barbarian next to the class in the CRB, is an actual statted out character with a full background that was created by the pathfinder developers. The character in question wields a Large bastard sword and also has EWP(bastard sword). If one of the core classes created by the rules of pathfinder to represent one of the classes of pathfinder needs EWP to wield a large sized bastard sword, the intent seems to be that you need EWP to wield a large sized bastard sword.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Despite the RAW being clear to those who (finally) comprehend it, I'd like to address the RAI.

While reading this thread it has become apparent that, even among those who agree that it's RAW, that somehow it's not RAI. I disagree. (we're all only speculating on RAI, BTW)

Sword, Bastard wrote:
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon.

The only thing the EWP does is train you to use it in one hand! Why on earth would it help you use it in two hands, just because it's bigger?

The only reason it's an exotic weapon at all is because it's 'too large to use in one hand without special training!' That 'special training' is the EWP feat, which trains you to use it in one hand! Again, it makes no sense to believe that it would help you to use it in two hands!

It's not some kind of sneaky, underhand rules cheese! It's not only RAW, it makes perfect sense!

So you're saying that wizard who has EWP(Bastard Sword) can't use a Large bastard sword proficiently, but a fighter who doesn't have the feat can?

Silver Crusade

Bobson wrote:
So you're saying that wizard who has EWP(Bastard Sword) can't use a Large bastard sword proficiently, but a fighter who doesn't have the feat can?

But the fighter does have the feat needed to use it without penalty in two hands! Specifically, Martial Weapon Proficiency!

BTW, the EWP subsumes the MWP. A wizard with EWP (bastard sword) can use a bastard sword in one OR two hands without penalty, thus he can use a large bastard sword in two hands without penalty.

A FAQ was asked if the god that gave clerics with the war domain proficiency with the bastard sword gave MWP or EWP. The answer was EWP. It would be absurd to think that such a cleric (they don't have MWP with all weapons like Martians do) could use it without penalty in one hand would suffer a -4 penalty to use it in two. : )

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