Raging Bard?


Rules Questions

Sczarni

Few things about a possible warchanter (half-orc barbarian/bard)!

From my understanding a bard can't maintain a performe while raging , like all the inspires, because these are charisma-base skills BUT i could cast any spell?

Even moment of clarity would be useless for that specific case right?

Am i missing something?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Look closer.
Many of the Bard's abilities require no Perform skill check whatsoever.

Also, supernatural abilities can be used during rage.


Oops.

"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."

Casting a spell requires concentration. This is what intelligent items are for.


Vaahama wrote:

Few things about a possible warchanter (half-orc barbarian/bard)!

From my understanding a bard can't maintain a performe while raging , like all the inspires, because these are charisma-base skills BUT i could cast any spell?

Even moment of clarity would be useless for that specific case right?

Am i missing something?

Why wouldn't moment of clarity work? This seems to be the sort of situation moment of clarity is meant for.

Quote:
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. Activating this power is a swift action. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per rage.

Edit: I ran a bard who did this, he used lingering performance to make this a bit more practical.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There are a number of Bardic Performances that require no Perform skill check.

You can use those during Rage.


As been stated before. Your gm may interpret concentration and patience differently than us, however.

I, for one, find the idea of a bard singing happy songs while beating up foes would be hilarious.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No, supernatural abilities are called out as not requiring concentration or patience, unless the ability states it does.

It requires houserules to disallow.


The best Raging Bards are from Norway and Sweden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2WqQY_xSSM


blackbloodtroll wrote:

No, supernatural abilities are called out as not requiring concentration or patience, unless the ability states it does.

It requires houserules to disallow.

Citation?

"Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical attacks, defenses, and qualities. These abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize. The supernatural ability's description includes information on how it is used and its effects."

"Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities."

"Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

See here.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
See here.

Danke.

It still leaves the issue of 'patience' up to DM discretion (although I assume anything you can do in 1 round doesn't require patience).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Whale_Cancer wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
See here.

Danke.

It still leaves the issue of 'patience' up to DM discretion (although I assume anything you can do in 1 round doesn't require patience).

Tell a Rockstar he needs patience to rock.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Whale_Cancer wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
See here.

Danke.

It still leaves the issue of 'patience' up to DM discretion (although I assume anything you can do in 1 round doesn't require patience).

Tell a Rockstar he needs patience to rock.

I don't think using bardic performance would require patience, but there are SUs that might (you said that SU specifically says they require neither concentration nor patience; your link only says they do not require concentration). Just want to be clear.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Specifically, the Bardic Performance abilities are Supernatural.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Specifically, the Bardic Performance abilities are Supernatural.

That isn't in contention.

An example of an SU which a DM could very reasonably conclude requires patience (though not concentration, by RAW):

"Cook People (Su): The witch can create fabulous spells by cooking an intelligent humanoid creature in her cauldron, either alive or dead. Using this hex creates one meal or serving of food of the witch's choice, typically a delicious stew or a dough suitable for cookies, pastries, or other desserts. Cooking the victim takes 1 hour. Eating the food provides one of the following benefits for 1 hour: age resistance, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, neutralize poison (instantaneous) owl's wisdom, remove disease (instantaneous). Alternatively, the witch can shape the dough into a Small, humanlike creature, animating it as a homunculus for 1 hour. The witch must have the cauldron hex to select this hex. Using this hex or knowingly eating its food is an evil act."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No one will be Raging, and Cooking People for one hour.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
No one will be Raging, and Cooking People for one hour.

Sure, I agree. My point is that you said that SU specifically says that it requires neither patience nor concentration.

The link you provided only makes a point about not requiring concentration.

Also, cooking people is an SU that seems to require patience. I have provided it show that it isn't even the case that all SUs do not require patience.

It's possible that this distinction becomes important to someone who reads this thread. There are so many SUs, I would think there are probably some that require patience, but are short enough that they could be performed during a rage. (I can't think of anywhere else patience is mentioned in the game, either)

Sczarni

Marthian wrote:


I, for one, find the idea of a bard singing happy songs while beating up foes would be hilarious.

You have the right to see it the way you want.

I for myself had more in mind shouting out loud how i will bring you down you, your king, your organisation and your kingdome... that to me is far from behing hilarious and it is quite what i imagine as an inspiring view for my comrades!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Still works out for the OP.


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This was not as interesting as I thought it was going to be when I misread the title as Raging Beard.


The way bards work in PF is pretty different than how they worked in 3.5, and it causes lots of people to trip up on them. Except for a few uses, bards have been decoupled from the Perform skill. Instead of having Perform being integral to their performances (see how they changed the name from bardic music?), it's not integral to versatile performance.


Marthian wrote:

As been stated before. Your gm may interpret concentration and patience differently than us, however.

I, for one, find the idea of a bard singing happy songs while beating up foes would be hilarious.

They don't have to be happy songs, per se.

Tolkien, in The Return of the King, wrote:


Suddenly, the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him, his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.

Should there be raging bards (or singers in general) in Pathfinder? Oh, yeah.

Dark Archive

The idea of a raging bard/Barbarian breaking into a Dirge of Doom, or Frightening Tune sounds like perfect barbarian chant effects.


I agree with Blackblood Troll's points.

Inspire Courage (and a handful of other performance types) don't require any Perform checks at all. So from the rules I'm reading (the Rage rules), they're kosher because they don't require any patience nor do they require any of the specifically-mentioned skill types.


If bardic performance doesn't work with rage, it'd be because the free action necessary each round is a type of concentration. BP doesn't really require patience unless you choose to flavor yours as playing an instrument.

That said, last time this came up I was of the opinion that you couldn't rage and use bardic performance at the same time. To me-9-months-ago, the convincing bit of evidence was that the savage skald couldn't use his incite rage ability on himself. While it doesn't explicitly state why that's the case --

unrelated rant:
This is why I'm really grateful when a 3rd party company has a sidebar in their products that explains why something is the case. Really simplifies things, and would help a lot here.

--, the most reason I thought most likely was because it'd require something that rage precluded, so he'd start it, and be unable to continue it because he was raging.

Of course, now I'm leaning towards them being able to be used at once, but I don't have a good reason for why the savage skald can't use incite rage on himself. I guess it's possible that the author didn't want them to get the rage class ability and the whole bard package too, but I dunno.

Sczarni

Ok, lets put that post back on track. At least more with what i had in mind first.

I'll go more in detail:

#1 Can i cast a spell while raging?
Rage says that i can't do anything that use concentration.. ok probably not since you need concentration to cast a spell. The reason why we need to succeed a concentration check caused by AoO in the first place.

#2 Rage says that i can't use, among other things, charisma base skill so it rule out the whole "perform skills" since they are charisma skill!

#3 Even with the use of lingering performance my bardic perform would last 2 round only!

For exemple i spend x amount of time to "prime" my comrade to whats coming ahead and then...
combat round #1: I rage, inspire courage goes out, linguering perform pops in for 2 rounds.
combat round #2: linguering performance last round
Combat round #3: bard useless!

#4 What "moment of clarity" really add to this?

i spend x amount of time to "prime" my comrade to whats coming ahead and then...
combat round #1: I rage, inspire courage goes out, linguering perform pops in for 2 rounds.
combat round #2: linguering performance last round
Combat round #3: moment of clarity (free action?), inspire courage again (or even cast a spell)
Comabt round #4: rage come back, inspire goes out, linguering pop back again for 2 rounds.
Comabt round #5: linguering performance last round
Combat round #6: bard useless!

I don't want to ear about how my DM would interpret it, i just want to know what i can do with RAW! I'll see with my DM after.

The more i look into it the more i realise that despite the awsome fluff behind it, the idea of a "warchanter" is realy a bad choice.


Vaahama wrote:
#1 Can i cast a spell while raging?

Correct. No spells.

Vaahama wrote:
#2 Rage says that i can't use, among other things, charisma base skill so it rule out the whole "perform skills" since they are charisma skill!

You couldn't use the actual skill, but Bardic Performance doesn't require use of the Perform skill.

Vaahama wrote:

#3 Even with the use of lingering performance my bardic perform would last 2 round only!

[...]
#4 What "moment of clarity" really add to this?

Perform for 1 round. Next round, enter a rage. Round 3 of your rage use moment of clarity to perform again. Perform lasts another 2 rounds, for a total of 6 rounds of performance.

This isn't necessarily any good at all.

Of course, since you can use Bardic Performance while in a rage (unless you DM rules it requires patience), this isn't really necessary.


#1) No. Unless you have Moment of Clarity.

#2) You cannot use Perform skills while raging, yes. Only some (the minority, actually) bardic performances use the Perform skills though.

#3) I'm not sure what this question is. If you had lingering performance and started bardic performance, then ended it, it would last for only 2 rounds after yours, yea.

4) If rage could not be used with bardic performances, then moment of clarity would let you start it and then get 3 rounds of it out, including the round you started it.

Personally, I don't thinking "raging" when I think warchanter. The savage skald does what you want though :)


Vaahama wrote:

#1 Can i cast a spell while raging?

Rage says that i can't do anything that use concentration.. ok probably not since you need concentration to cast a spell. The reason why we need to succeed a concentration check caused by AoO in the first place.

Agreed. Spell-casting explicitly requires concentration, so it's out.

Vaahama wrote:
#2 Rage says that i can't use, among other things, charisma base skill so it rule out the whole "perform skills" since they are charisma skill!

And here's where the disconnect comes in. Show me where the rules indicate that all types of bardic performance requires concentration or any of the rage-prohibited skills?

The ones that require a skill roll explicitly say so. The others only require the action to begin them... nowhere does it say they need concentration. At least not in Pathfinder.

And #'s 3 and 4 are really moot unless you can show me where it says Bardic Performance requires concentration.

EDIT: ninja'd... what others said.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If your GM lets you utilize past material check out Dragon 311, the Battle Howler of Gruumsh mechanically fits what you want to be able to do it seems. Just fix the fluff and you'll be good to go it's a relatively solid prestige class. I think someone did a quick overview of it over on Giant in the Playground if you don't own that particular issue of Dragon. Here's the title of the thread that has a post just outlining the basics of the prc Battle-Bard, advice?.

Sczarni

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Inspire Courage (and a handful of other performance types) don't require any Perform checks at all. So from the rules I'm reading (the Rage rules), they're kosher because they don't require any patience nor do they require any of the specifically-mentioned skill types.

You might be right but there's still one point bugging me.

On page 35: bardic performance is worded like that: "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects....."

That is where the whole debate reside i think, in the piece of sentence "use the perform skill"

Your opinion?


I was wondering the same thing last time. James did a lot of the work on the PF Bard, and the link is his opinion on that first line.

Sczarni

Cheapy wrote:
I was wondering the same thing last time. James did a lot of the work on the PF Bard, and the link is his opinion on that first line.

Thanx a lot for the link, that says it all as far as i'm concern!

Case close, raging bard can't cast but can still use inspire X*

* insert courage, greatness, heroics as you see fit!


No problemo. Probably should've linked to that earlier.

Have fun.

Dark Archive

For the record, Urban Barbarians and their Controlled Rage allow you much more freedom of skills you can use while raging, and you don't even have to give up your normal rage for it. You do lose Fast Movement, though.

Sczarni

I will point out what Seranov said, Urban Barbarian can bypass some limits of Rage.

I was under impression also that you couldn't use Bardic Performance and Rage. I guess I was wrong. Good to know.


Is anyone else humming "Berzerker" from Clerks while reading this.


Gnomezrule wrote:
Is anyone else humming "Berzerker" from Clerks while reading this.

This is what came to my mind.


I played a Kobold Bard'barian... his song of choice for raging inspire courage was "Bodies" from Drowning Pool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JZ9djZa180

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