Summoning and Mythic Rules


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

Grand Lodge

I tried and failed miserably using my wizard summoner even with the boosts that the mythic summoning feat gives. The summons just become obsolete very fast. Also I noticed that my planar binding creatures were absolutely unable to do anything but aid another which is not why I bind them. They are supposed to do a bit more than that. Has anyone else seen this problem?


Eugene Nelson wrote:
I tried and failed miserably using my wizard summoner even with the boosts that the mythic summoning feat gives. The summons just become obsolete very fast. Also I noticed that my planar binding creatures were absolutely unable to do anything but aid another which is not why I bind them. They are supposed to do a bit more than that. Has anyone else seen this problem?

Yes.

It is not a problem exclusive to Mythic, though Mythic highlights it. Any time PCs are more powerful than they should be for their level for whatever reason (extra point buy, extra wealth) summoning will fall behind as a meaningful action.

Unfortunately the current Mythic Augment Summoning is nothing short of a feat tax on summoners (and by that I mean all spellcasters who summon things) - and a feat tax so they can become more and more obsolete as the tiers stack up. In effect, a giant screw you.

My guess is the solution will be the addition of a Mythic Summon Monster / Nature's ally line of spells - though I would argue that they will be nothing but a patch job, since it will still unfairly require those who summon in combat burn mythic points to stay relevant at all, vs. other spellcasters who can still throw around effective battlefield control, buffing, debuffing, or damaging spells without having to use the mythic versions.

Scarab Sages Reaper Miniatures

Eugene: Can you elaborate on precisely how they became obsolete, and what might help?


Bryan Stiltz wrote:
Eugene: Can you elaborate on precisely how they became obsolete, and what might help?

Most obviously? They fall behind in terms of offensive potential when mythic PCs are able to add 1d10 to attacks or +10/+10 on attack/damage, or take extra actions, or otherwise dominate physically compared to summons who have no notable increase to their offensive potential.

Sczarni

Well, agile summons gain the dual initiative trait. Pick a spellcaster summon instead of a melee beatstick, and that's 2 more spells/turn for the summoner.

This works quite well with anyone who can pull a summon as a standard action especially.


The Marshall stuff - maybe with a "dip" into Guardian or vice versa - seems to suit the "buff alla mah mini-onions" types nicely...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You're missing the point. Look at the summon monster III list. Look at CR 9 opponents like the bone devil. A level 6 / Tier 3 is supposed to be able to overcome such an opponent. Tell me what monster on that summon list can contribute in a meaningful way to that fight. We're talking about sending CR 2s up against a CR 9. I don't know that a single monster on the list can hit a Bone Devil with anything but a natural 20. That's a serious problem, and it only grows larger the further you go up in level/tier.

If a Level 10 / Tier 5 character is supposed to be able to fight CR 15 opponents I'd love to know how a summoning based character contributes.

The basic numbers diverge - quickly. Attack bonus vs. AC, DCs vs. saves, and damage vs. hit points. And it isn't a matter of summons soaking up hits that others would take. It's a matter of summons being completely ignored because the odds of them doing even 5-10 damage a round is marginal.

Sczarni

Summon Monster III: Bring out a Lantern Archon. That critter now has 6 rounds of +3 touch attacks, each doing 1d6 damage / hit. The archon hits on a Nat-11, potentially dealing 12d6 (No DR, no energy resistance).

In addition, it can cast Aid on anyone if there's no opportunity to blast the devil, for 1d8+3 temp HP and some minor boosts.

Summon Monster V gets you 1d4+1 (probably 1d4+3 since you took Superior Summons and Mythic Augment Summoning as a dedicated summoner) for 5.5 Lantern Archons for 10 rounds.

If you're a LG character, you pull these glowing laser-batteries out as a Standard action via Sacred Summons as well.

Against any of the dragons, or say, the colossal black scorpion, that's nearly 110d6 (5.5 archons * 2 rays / turn * 10 turns / spell) of Energy Ray damage.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the attacks directed at the summons that are NOT directed at the party.

Summoned critters are not intended to be the "knockout punch" that Sleep, Color Spray, or other SoD spells do. They create assistance for the party and provide a little backup when needed.


psionichamster wrote:
Summon Monster III: Bring out a Lantern Archon. That critter now has 6 rounds of +3 touch attacks, each doing 1d6 damage / hit. The archon hits on a Nat-11, potentially dealing 12d6 (No DR, no energy resistance).

Yea, I guess right now the Lantern Archon is the only option isn't it?

Unfortunately, the problem with mythic summons is also shared by mythic eidolons and animal companions. They just don't get anything that lets them keep up with the levels of the creatures they are fighting.

Sczarni

On the high-level front:

Spoiler:
Summon Monster IX: Ghale Azata (1 Mythic Point to apply Savage/Agile)
CG Medium outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, good, shapechanger)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, low-light vision, see invisibility; Perception +20
Aura holy aura
DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 26 (+4 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +12 natural)
hp 178 (13d10+107)
Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +16
DR 10/cold iron and evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10; SR 25
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (perfect)
Melee +2 holy greatsword +24/+19/+14 (2d6+14)
Ranged 2 light rays +14 ranged touch (2d12)
Special Attacks gaze
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th)
Constant—detect evil, holy aura (DC 21), see invisibility
At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), continual flame, cure light wounds, dancing lights, detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16),greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only)
3/day—globe of invulnerability
1/day—chain lightning (DC 19), prismatic spray (DC 20), wall of force
Spells Prepared (CL 13th)
7th—holy word (DC 21)
6th—banishment (DC 20), heal (DC 20)
5th—flame strike (DC 19), raise dead, true seeing
4th—death ward, dismissal (2) (DC 18), divine power, restoration
3rd—cure serious wounds (3), searing light (2)
2nd—aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, lesser restoration (2)
1st—bless, command (DC 15), divine favor, obscuring mist, shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue
STATISTICS
Str 29, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 17
Base Atk +13; CMB +22; CMD 33
Feats Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip,Lightning Reflexes11
Skills Diplomacy +19, Escape Artist +17, Fly +25, Handle Animal +19, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (planes) +19, Perception +20, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +17
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ light form
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Gaze (Su)

In humanoid form, a ghaele's gaze attack slays evil creatures of 5 HD or less (range 60 feet, Will DC 18 negates, shaken for 2d10 rounds on a successful save). Nonevil creatures, and evil creatures with more than 5 HD, must succeed on a DC 18 Will save or be shaken for 2d10 rounds. A creature that saves against a ghaele's gaze is immune to that particular ghaele's gaze for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Light Form (Su)

A ghaele can shift between its solid body and one made of light as a standard action. In solid form, it cannot fly or use light rays. In light form, it can fly and gains the incorporeal quality—it can make light ray attacks or use spell-like abilities in this form, but can't make physical attacks or cast spells. This ability otherwise functions similarly to a bralani's wind form ability.
Light Ray (Ex)

A ghaele's light rays have a range of 300 feet. This attack bypasses all damage reduction.
Spells

Ghaeles cast divine spells as 13th-level clerics. They do not gain access to domains or other cleric abilities.

Augmented Agile Ghaele Azata (Counts as Mythic for Spells & Abilities)
AC 30, touch 18, flat-footed 26 (+4 deflection, +1 Dex, +3 dodge, +12 natural)
hp 188 (13d10+117)
Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +16; Evasion
DR 10/epic, cold iron, and evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10; SR 25
OFFENSE
Speed 80 ft., fly 180 ft. (perfect)
Melee +2 holy greatsword +24/+19/+14 (2d6+14)
Ranged 2 light rays +14 ranged touch (2d12)
Special Attacks gaze; Mythic Power (Str; 10/day 1d6)
Feats: Mythic Dodge

Augmented Savage Ghaele Azata (Counts as Mythic Tier 2)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, low-light vision, see invisibility; Perception +20
Aura holy aura
DEFENSE
AC 30, touch 16, flat-footed 28(+4 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +14 natural)
hp 198 (13d10+127)
Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +16
DR 10/epic, cold iron and evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 15, fire 15; SR 25
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (perfect)
Melee +2 holy greatsword +25/+20/+15 (2d6+17)
Ranged 2 light rays +14 ranged touch (2d12)
Special Attacks gaze, Mythic Power (Str 11/day; 1d6)
STATISTICS
Str 31, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 17
Feats: Mythic Dodge

This is one of the options for my Cleric 17/Hierophant 8 to summon using Summon Monster IX. It comes out as a standard action, and with one Mythic Point, has the ability to seriously hurt Mythic foes if needed.

Besides the spells she can cast (like wall of force, heal, and the like) she can smack with her holy greatsword for +25 or higher or shoot for 2d12 energy rays.

Not too shabby, in my opinion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
psionichamster wrote:

Summon Monster III: Bring out a Lantern Archon. That critter now has 6 rounds of +3 touch attacks, each doing 1d6 damage / hit. The archon hits on a Nat-11, potentially dealing 12d6 (No DR, no energy resistance).

In addition, it can cast Aid on anyone if there's no opportunity to blast the devil, for 1d8+3 temp HP and some minor boosts.

Summon Monster V gets you 1d4+1 (probably 1d4+3 since you took Superior Summons and Mythic Augment Summoning as a dedicated summoner) for 5.5 Lantern Archons for 10 rounds.

If you're a LG character, you pull these glowing laser-batteries out as a Standard action via Sacred Summons as well.

Against any of the dragons, or say, the colossal black scorpion, that's nearly 110d6 (5.5 archons * 2 rays / turn * 10 turns / spell) of Energy Ray damage.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the attacks directed at the summons that are NOT directed at the party.

Summoned critters are not intended to be the "knockout punch" that Sleep, Color Spray, or other SoD spells do. They create assistance for the party and provide a little backup when needed.

Thank you for proving my point. If the only summon you can find that is useful at all is a lantern archon which - lets be honest - is dealing an average of 1d6 damage a turn there is a problem with the system.

psionichamster wrote:

she can smack with her holy greatsword for +25 or higher or shoot for 2d12 energy rays.

Not too shabby, in my opinion.

Quite shabby in my opinion. By 20th level a fighter or barbarian is probably hitting at +40 or better (before buffs) - so your best summon's melee attack is at least 15 points of in terms of attack bonus (I use a 20th level fighter because you are by level 17 / tier 8 supposed to be the equal of a 25th level character, so really I'm being generous). 2d12 energy rays do an average of 13 damage. This is a meaningful?

Compare your to hit, damage, and save DCs with the numbers on CR 20+ opponents. Then compare them to what a level 17 / tier 8 melee character can generate. Finally, and here's the kicker, compare that to what a normal level 17 summoned creature would do. The boost to your summon from your mythic is marginal - and that is the real issue. If everything else is getting boosts in mythic then summoned monsters need them as well.

I'm not denying that a summon can still have some use (at high levels) as a spellcaster, but in terms of being able to engage any opponent a party encounters of appropriate CR, I just don't see it.

Matrix Dragon wrote:
Unfortunately, the problem with mythic summons is also shared by mythic eidolons and animal companions. They just don't get anything that lets them keep up with the levels of the creatures they are fighting.

Right. They fall behind at high levels as is by default, but this is made even worse when you add mythic which is adding by tier 10 ~15 points to the attack bonus of high end melee characters, halving damage for defenders, and making everyone far tougher.

Sczarni

So what should a summon monster spell be capable of, in your opinion?

It already provides spell support, weapon-damage support, takes up space on the battefield, and can provide special tactical considerations that the party cannot produce on their own.

It allows flexibility for limited-spells-known casters like Oracles or Sorcerers.

And the idea that you NEED a +40 to hit at level 17 is not true.

See chart here.

CR 20 monsters have assumed AC of 36. That means, the above azata (a level 9 spell, using 1 mythic point, which lasts for 17 rounds at the least) can swing and hit on a natural-11 unbuffed the assumed CR 20 AC.

If that's an evil creature, or (even better) you have a bard or other buff-character in the party, that just gets easier and easier to hit.

Of course, if every monster / NPC is tweaked by the GM to be AC 50+, swinging for 100+ damage a hit, that's beyond the scope of the assumed baseline.

In my experience, the real drawback to summons are the Full Round Action and the fact that they take up time at the table. As speedbumps, meat-shields, and occasional damage dealers/spellcasters, they are GREAT!

edit: A lantern archon is doing on average 2d6 damage per turn, for rounds/level, starting at level 5.

Compare to Fireball (1d6/level, AoE damage, reflex save) or any other "damaging spell" for the level, and the Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally will do less overall damage/round, since the assumption is the critters will be around for several rounds.

again, discounting their offensive output entirely, every attack the enemies throw at a summon is effectively damage prevented from landing on the party. It's like pre-emptive healing.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Why are you using high-level summons to attack things? That's what a fighter is for. High-level summons exist to use spell-like abilities.

Assistant Software Developer

I removed a post. Let's keep this civil, please.

Grand Lodge

Lets see folks. I have a 14th level wizard that we tested with 7 mythic levels. I am a summoning wizard. Thats what I do. Not a single summons against these cr 20 you are all talking about could get close to 1. hit, 2. defend, and finally 3. Never once did I get withing 10 of beating the creatures spell resistance. When the creatures did not have spell resistance the spells slid off their back like teflon rolling 2 or higher. If this is supposed to be what summoning is be, you play it. I will do something else cause summoning is hamstringed in the first place not to lose all effectiveness with 2 levels of mythic. I am just trying to say that it is broken. I am not a developer and I do not know how to make it work better besides making mythic abilities that up your summoning on all summons without using points.

My planar binding had the same exact problems too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
psionichamster wrote:
So what should a summon monster spell be capable of, in your opinion?

Summons should remain capable of contributing by means other than taking hits and casting spells - because the majority of the summoning list is not made up of spellcasters. They need to be able to do reliable and reasonable amounts of damage not on par with the fighter, but at least on par with lower end DPS characters in order to be a valuable use of limited resources.

psionichamster wrote:
It already provides spell support, weapon-damage support, takes up space on the battefield, and can provide special tactical considerations that the party cannot produce on their own.

This is wrong. Many summons do not provide spell support, in many cases summons taking up space on the battlefield is not useful if the area is small, and the tactical considerations presented by creatures which by level 20/tier 10 are more than 13 CRs under those they are fighting is laughable. That is the core problem - the CRs and abilities of summoned creatures are set for 1-20, not 1-30. Beyond that the side issue is that the normal 1-20 dynamic falls apart because you are not using your nominal 1-20 abilities against higher CR opponents because of tiers.

psionichamster wrote:
It allows flexibility for limited-spells-known casters like Oracles or Sorcerers.

This is not a meaningful concern in mythic. Wild arcana gives any spellcaster access to any spell on their class list as a standard action without expending a spell slot and at +2 caster level. It is so good that I cannot see any spontaneous caster (or normal caster) not taking it.

psionichamster wrote:

And the idea that you NEED a +40 to hit at level 17 is not true.

See chart here.

I didn't say you needed +40 to hit at 17th level, and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth to build up a straw man argument.

I said on a level 17/tier 8, when you are effectively 25th level, you cannot be hitting at the same + to hit as a 13th level fighter. You cannot be effective in any way when your attack bonus lags 10+ levels behind. Look at the CR 20+ monsters Paizo has published.

This is especially problematic when you are looking at monster hit point values along side those ACs - and the damage that the given summon does even on a hit relative to those hit point values.

psionichamster wrote:
CR 20 monsters have assumed AC of 36. That means, the above azata (a level 9 spell, using 1 mythic point, which lasts for 17 rounds at the least) can swing and hit on a natural-11 unbuffed the assumed CR 20 AC.

Right, but the above character using the above Azeta should be able to compete with CR 25 creatures, not CR 20 creatures. That's why you don't seem to understand about my point. I am not saying that Summon Monster IX is useless at 20th level (though I will say that at higher levels as a whole summoning loses much of its punch). I'm saying it is useless at mythic, and especially at higher mythic tiers when you are fighting monsters beyond the assumed norm.

psionichamster wrote:
If that's an evil creature, or (even better) you have a bard or other buff-character in the party, that just gets easier and easier to hit.

Right, and if it's an evil outsider with something like blasphemy or any kind of meaning AoE for its level your summon gets nuked off the board incidentally to your own nuking. We can play hypothetical all day, but the possible inclusion of a 5th buffing character in the nominal assumption of a 4 person party does not change the baseline assumptions for a 4 person party.

psionichamster wrote:
Of course, if every monster / NPC is tweaked by the GM to be AC 50+, swinging for 100+ damage a hit, that's beyond the scope of the assumed baseline.

Completely beyond the scope of what I'm talking about. I never said anything about tweaked ACs or monster stats (though I would point out that virtually every monster in the Bestiary needs to be equipped with treasure, which can quickly boost numbers). We are talking about published monsters here that render a summon like that all but irrelevant.

psionichamster wrote:
In my experience, the real drawback to summons are the Full Round Action and the fact that they take up time at the table. As speedbumps, meat-shields, and occasional damage dealers/spellcasters, they are GREAT!

Sure, 1-20 in a normal game. I am not saying that summons are weak in a 1-20 normal game. I never said that said, and I'm not posting in the general discussion forums about how summoned monsters are bad. Your experience here is (sadly) irrelevant - we are not talking about your experience. We are talking about how an existing set of rules (for summoning) interacts with a new set of rules (mythic) and how summoners are left out in the cold because mythic includes virtually no options to keep summoners competitive as the CRs they face scale up faster than their spells.

We are talking about how every player who has reported on mythic about their experiences using summons has echoed the same problems - and these are problems that are readily apparent when one looks at the math behind them.

psionichamster wrote:
edit: A lantern archon is doing on average 2d6 damage per turn, for rounds/level, starting at level 5.

No, it isn't. At least not in the vast majority of circumstances. If shooting into melee (common vs. one opponent) it is doing less than 1d6 damage on average when the penalty for shooting into melee is averaged in. That also assumes enemies with touch ACs of 10 - which is not always the case.

psionichamster wrote:
Compare to Fireball (1d6/level, AoE damage, reflex save) or any other "damaging spell" for the level, and the Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally will do less overall damage/round, since the assumption is the critters will be around for several rounds.

Apples and oranges. Most AoEs affect multiple targets, and they function all at once instead of across multiple rounds (which may or may not be meaningful - my experience is that it is rare for a combat to last more than 2-4 rounds). I don't see how this is meaningful to the conversation.

psionichamster wrote:
again, discounting their offensive output entirely, every attack the enemies throw at a summon is effectively damage prevented from landing on the party. It's like pre-emptive healing.

Thanks for that quote for the Char-Op boards, but let's not forget the other part of it - you have to have summons that are tough enough not to be killed off by incidental attacks (e.g. AoEs) and strong enough to actually incentivize creaturs to attack them. If your summoned monster and the fighter are both beating up on something, and the fighter is dealing 70 damage while the summoned creature did 6, any creature played with any intelligence will focus on the fighter. Your preemptive healing does no good if it is never used.

At present summoned monsters in mythic games don't have enough of an impact to even function effectively as bullet sponges for the party. They can't hit, don't do enough damage when they do, and are all around a poor investment relative to other options. The only tools given to mythic summoners make the summons more effective sponges but ignore the fact that there is no reason to hit opponents that are not a threat. DR / Epic is nice (though I'm not certain about requiring a mythic feat to deal mythic damage), but it is not what is needed. Designers gave us a spoon when we needed a knife.

Epic Meepo wrote:
Why are you using high-level summons to attack things? That's what a fighter is for. High-level summons exist to use spell-like abilities.

Like the Purple Worm, Elder Elemental, Barbed Devil, and Storm Giant?

While I can freely admit that even in nominal 1-20 games at higher levels the SLAs offered because a large part of the summon monster list, ultimately I don't agree that should become their only purpose.


Idea:

What if spending a Mythic point when summoning, rather than improving the base summon, allows you to increase the Summon Monster spell level by up to half (round down) your Mythic Tier.

Examples:

Level 4/Tier 2 (APL 6) - could increase Summon Monster I to II and SMII to III (which a normal Level 6 summoner would have access to).

Level 12/Tier 6 (APL 18) - spend a Mythic point, SMI becomes SMIV, SMII becomes SMV, and so on up to SMVI becoming SMIX (which, again, a normal APL 18 would have access to).

The consequence of this would be a required extension to the Summon Monster table (Mythic Summon spells) to allow for Summon Monster X, XI, and maybe cap it out at XII. X would have CR 15 monsters, XI would have CR 17 monsters, and XII would have CR 19 monsters. CR 20 and higher should only ever be the subject of Gate spells.

By doing this we can continue the examples:

Level 14/Tier 7 (APL 21) - SMI still becomes SMIV, SMVI still becomes SMIX, but now we also have acess to SMVII which becomes SMX (CR 15 may stand up a bit better against those CR 20 to 21 average combats).

Level 16/Tier 8 (APL 25) - SMI becomes SMV, SMVI becomes SMX, SMVII becomes SMXI, and SMVIII becomes SMXII (pitting CR 19 against average encounters of CR 24 to 25).

At Level 17 and higher, the list still caps at XII, meaning SMIX would be the same as SMVIII for a Mythic point, but that doesn't render IX useless. You can still cast it as a normal IX without having to spend a Mythic point to instead increase SM V. Plus, now you have access to Gate as well.

Once you hit Tier 10, the cap of XII still remains but you get even more effectiveness out of your Summons as you can now boost each spell by 5 levels. So that's something.

Grand Lodge

The Block Knight wrote:

Idea:

What if spending a Mythic point when summoning, rather than improving the base summon, allows you to increase the Summon Monster spell level by up to half (round down) your Mythic Tier.

Examples:

Level 4/Tier 2 (APL 6) - could increase Summon Monster I to II and SMII to III (which a normal Level 6 summoner would have access to).

Level 12/Tier 6 (APL 18) - spend a Mythic point, SMI becomes SMIV, SMII becomes SMV, and so on up to SMVI becoming SMIX (which, again, a normal APL 18 would have access to).

The consequence of this would be a required extension to the Summon Monster table (Mythic Summon spells) to allow for Summon Monster X, XI, and maybe cap it out at XII. X would have CR 15 monsters, XI would have CR 17 monsters, and XII would have CR 19 monsters. CR 20 and higher should only ever be the subject of Gate spells.

By doing this we can continue the examples:

Level 14/Tier 7 (APL 21) - SMI still becomes SMIV, SMVI still becomes SMIX, but now we also have acess to SMVII which becomes SMX (CR 15 may stand up a bit better against those CR 20 to 21 average combats).

Level 16/Tier 8 (APL 25) - SMI becomes SMV, SMVI becomes SMX, SMVII becomes SMXI, and SMVIII becomes SMXII (pitting CR 19 against average encounters of CR 24 to 25).

At Level 17 and higher, the list still caps at XII, meaning SMIX would be the same as SMVIII for a Mythic point, but that doesn't render IX useless. You can still cast it as a normal IX without having to spend a Mythic point to instead increase SM V. Plus, now you have access to Gate as well.

Once you hit Tier 10, the cap of XII still remains but you get even more effectiveness out of your Summons as you can now boost each spell by 5 levels. So that's something.

This is interesting, but you would have to create new lists for new spells and I dont think paizo will do this unfortunately. Damned decent idea though imho.


It's clear that a Summon Monster/Ally mythic spell that adds Mythic Tier in some multiple to the Summons List available is in order, to a max of the SM/SNA IX list. It will cost a mythic point as an action investment, which is fair. Certainly an easy fix to keep summons relevant. Also, let the archmage have a mighty summons path ability along with the hierophant.

Summons seem popular enough that some specific attention might want to be paid to them lest the hordes of summoner gamers not want to play Mythic.


Perhaps a simpler patch may be to increase the duration of the summon monster spells? If they last 1 round per level then they pretty much must be cast during combat, but if they were to last 1 minute per level or 10 minutes per level then they could be reliably cast before combat. That wouldn't help at higher levels when the effective CR difference becomes effectively insurmountable, nor would it help companions/eidolons/etc, but at lower levels/tiers it should keep things under control for the summoning spells at very least.


Perhaps simply a flat bonus to hit and damage with the existing summon lists to keep them relevant, a certain flat bump per tier using a mythic summon spell. You already have the mythic augment summons feat giving your summon epic dr; now you simply need some additional hit bonus and you're good to go. I'm not thinking you even need any additional damage to maintain relevance.


I still think boosting the entire spell roster by half your Tier is the most balanced and efficient. If the Paizo developers don't want to create new Summon spells above IX (though they did mention there would be a few brand new Mythic spells in the final product so it's not out of the question) then an alternative once you start "going above IX" would be to allow the addition of Mythic Simple Templates to the summoned creatures equal to the difference (so a +1, +2, or +3 boost). Alternatively, this could be done with lower level Summons instead of raising the spell level entirely.

Something this extreme has to be warranted. At this point, two feats (Augment Summoning plus the Mythic version) as a giant tax to get summoned creatures to a point where they still suck and are completely non-competitive is ludicrous. I say this not as a player, but as the GM of a player who has a Conjurer as his character. I feel bad for the guy as it currently stands.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Mythic Adventures Playtest / General Discussion / Summoning and Mythic Rules All Messageboards
Recent threads in General Discussion