Overarching theme of RotR


Rise of the Runelords


Hi all

I am reading through RotR Anniversary Edition now and I am trying to find an overarching "theme" throughout. On the surface of it, it seems that each module within the AP has it's own distinct "theme" but nothing overarching.

Overall, it seems that the first one - while Burnt Offerings is brilliant - it's only real function seems to be to introduce the players to Sandpoint and help establish pathos with the townsfolk and get them invested. In terms of themes, there are some Lovecraftian-esque moments (e.g. the Erylium and the lesser runewell and the Catacombs of Wrath, as well as the lower levels of Thistlepoint). But the Lamashtu as the bad guy seems to pale in the face of the Runelords later on.

As the GM, I'm just looking for a way to help establish the overall theme and tone for the campaign and looking for advice from people who have run it, maybe even it run it more than once and get their feedback.

Thanks in advance!


I'd have to say the overarching theme is "the worth of virtues and the temptations of sin - how they shape us and our fates, if we let them".

Really: how many of the characters have been undone by their own weaknesses? Just in Burnt Offerings,

Spoiler:
Ezakien Tobyn's ambitious pride, the small-minded envy of Sandpoint's natives, and the selfish lust of her lover Delek all contributed to Nualia Tobyn succumbing to Lamashtu's appeals to her own wrath - a fury so great that it makes her want to raze the whole town and murder everyone in it.

Tsuto Kaijitsu, Orik Vancaskerkin, and Lyrie Akenja are all motivated by their desire (lust) for another character; moreover, Lyrie's pride drove her to murder two rivals, while Tsuto's got raging Daddy issues with Lonjiku (wrath). Hell, Ripnugget isn't even attracted to longshanks, and he's so captivated by Nualia that he follows her lead!

In The Skinsaw Murders, Aldern Foxglove is/was a greedy and envious fellow, considering that he

Spoiler:
was so jealous/over-protective of his wife that he jumped to the wrong conclusion and murdered her simply for talking to a carpenter.

The fall of Fort Rannick in The Hook Mountain Massacre probably never would have happened if it wasn't for

Spoiler:
Lamatar Bayden leaving his post to tryst with his nymph lover (lust) and Kaven Windstrike falling back into bad habits aboard the barge Paradise - his greed (in the gambling), his lust (for Lucrecia), and gluttony and sloth (his taste for luxurious living). If Kaven had been stronger, Lucrecia never could have conned critical information out of him or gotten him to keep a good portion of the garrison away at the key moment; if Lamatar hadn't been away getting his shillelagh polished, the Kreegs wouldn't have butchered both him and Myriana, and he might have been able to command his men well enough to prevent their slaughter.

The "boss" of Fortress of the Stone Giants, Mokmurian, was

Spoiler:
driven from his tribe for being a runt and a wizard, rather than a sorcerer, and he went questing for the mystical powers of Thassilon, found them, and came back to take over his old tribe with them, all out of a simple desire to 'show them all!' (which is straight-out wounded pride, to my eye). Likewise, Conna the Wise is so proud of 'the old ways' that she's willing to work with the PCs to bring down the usurper and go back to those old ways.


Thanks for that. I was just contemplating how the virtues play a big role after I posted. I think that makes sense.

On that note, as I read about all these characters I began to wonder how many of them could be 'redeemed'. Orik, for example, strikes me as not a fundamentally bad person but one who has made bad choices and who could easily be redeemed.

Others, like Nualia and Lyrie, strike me as less redeemable. Nualia in particular, strikes me as a terrific character and if she could be redeemed may become a staunch ally of the party, although her redemption would have to be epic (players racking up multiple 'Virtue' points without any sin points I'm thinking, paragons of virtue and all that). Either that or she would make a terrific reoccuring villain.

I'm sure there are more as we go through (I'm only up to the Skinsaw Murders atm) but I'm guessing that this is quite common.

If so I'd be curious in hearing if any GMs out there allowed their PCs to 'redeem' anyone?

Thanks again.

Dark Archive

You've stumbled upon the fatal flaw of this adventure path.

While each adventure stands well on its own, the overarcing story that is supposed to link them together is sometimes weak or too faint for the players to discover without some serious tinkering by them DM.

You may want to write in a few extra encounters of your own to help tell the over-arcing story.


I can see that being the case with the very intricate NPCs and the possibilities of redemption. I think that is probably my biggest angle.

Curious to know how others tackled this?

Grand Lodge

I have put a lot of emphasis on the mysterious Sihedron symbol as the link. Its appearance over and over, and seen in different ways link it to the rise of the Runelord. Most of Burnt Offerings is unrelated, but it does introduce the party to the symbol and Thassilonia. And that is enough to get the ball rolling.


Maybe someone can help me with how to (more subtlely) steer the party back to this being about Thassilon.

During Burnt Offerings the (self appointed) "leader" of the party really picked up on all of the reference to Lamashtu, and has since attempted to tie everything back to Gooddess of Monsters. I've been trying to subtlely correct him, though last night when they killed Xanesha and found her Sihedron medallion, he again said, "ah, another symbol of Lamashtu." To which I pointedly replied, "that's not at all what you learned frmo Brodert Quink."

Anyone else have this issue? Any ideas (or serious tinkering referenced above) that are a little smoother than me stating flat out that this isn't about Lamashtu anymore?


How far are they beyond Burnt Offerings? Skinsaw Murders really switches the focus to Norgorber, which could throw a player who thinks Lamashtu is behind everything way off track, and force them to rethink all their preconceptions.

Burnt Offerings is mostly unrelated to the rest of the adventure. The big link is mostly between Nualia and Xanesha (as seen in Nualia's backstory). Pretty much everyone in Burnt Offerings is connected to Nualia in some way, either directly or indirectly, so I'd say that the connection between Nualia and Xanesha is something that should be emphasized as "this first villain has turned out to have been a pawn of this more powerful villain" (probably best emphasized in the post-Misgivings stuff, once the PCs begin investigating the Brothers of the Seven and Xanesha.). As long as your players don't get stuck on the preconceptions formed in Burnt Offerings for too long they should be fine for figuring out overarching themes as things develop.

Also, a Lamashtu focus might me useful as a link to the Lamashtu-worshipping Lamias that appear throughout the latter half of the AP, such as the ones that will eventually be faced in Fortress of the Stone Giants.


We're just entering Turtleback Ferry.

I didn't worry too much about dispelling the Lamashtu thing, since I'd assumed they'd pick up on the Norgorber component and then the mention of Xanesha, but they didn't.

My actual fear is that the Lamias will only reinforce their misplaced understanding of what's going on, making the finale somewhat confusing/disapointing.


Maybe try to work it as a layered reveal, essentially "okay, so the connection to Lamashtu leads to these Lamias, but they also have another big boss who appears to have nothing to do with Lamashtu."

And if they still don't get that Karzoug doesn't have much to do with the mother of monsters by the end of Fortress of the Stone Giants' ending, you could always have him and use his first chance to speak directly to the party (speaking through Mokmurian) to have him spit in their faces for having such insulting ideas about him worshiping the being that mere minions worship. Essentially it would emphasize the "this guy has ego issues" thing while making him oh-so hateable to them personally.


Maybe try to work it as a layered reveal, essentially "okay, so the connection to Lamashtu leads to these Lamias, but they also have another big boss who appears to have nothing to do with Lamashtu.

And if they still don't get that Karzoug doesn't have much to do with the mother of monsters by the end of Fortress of the Stone Giants' ending, you could always have him and use his first chance to speak directly to the party (speaking through Mokmurian) to have him spit in their faces for having such insulting ideas about him worshiping the being that mere minions worship. Essentially it would emphasize the "this guy has ego issues" thing while making him oh-so hateable to them personally.


Does no else in the party have knowledge religion? Could you not just say you over there with the face and the religion skill, you know that this symbol and Lamashtu have nothing in common.

Bam... done and done. If they don't take that hint or the all of the other numerous ones then I'd just let em continue because obviously there is no stopping them


Matthew Bellizzi wrote:

Does no else in the party have knowledge religion? Could you not just say you over there with the face and the religion skill, you know that this symbol and Lamashtu have nothing in common.

Bam... done and done. If they don't take that hint or the all of the other numerous ones then I'd just let em continue because obviously there is no stopping them

As far as I can tell, they have already been outright told by their GM that the symbol is not a symbol of Lamashtu, and yet they still think it is.

Paizo Employee

PhineasGage wrote:
Anyone else have this issue? Any ideas (or serious tinkering referenced above) that are a little smoother than me stating flat out that this isn't about Lamashtu anymore?

I haven't had this issue, but I'll take a stab at it.

I think you might be able to turn that to your advantage, but it would take a bit of a tweak to the Adventure Path.

My Thought (Spoilers for Spires of Xin-Shalast):
So, Lamashtu doesn't really care if a few Lamia go off and do their own thing. She didn't even mind them serving Karzoug, as long as they still worshipped her.

But now, with the Denizens of Leng interfering, Mhar has begun to awaken and is twisting the Lamia of the mountain to serve him instead. That makes Lamashtu angry but, more importantly, the presence she feels stealing them away is both far older and far more powerful than she is. But her servants aren't usually in the hunting monsters and sealing away dark gods business.

So, one of her servants makes a show of good faith (or what passes for one among demon-worshippers): a lamia-bane weapon, reincarnating a fallen party member as a monstrous race, or the head of an escaped lamia enemy.

If the party lets the servant talk, they get the short version: Lamias are being corrupted somehow, being stolen from their Mother. If the party keeps killing tainted Lamias, Lamashtu will look favorably upon them or avert her gaze, as they choose.

Even if they drive off her servant, I'd make a point of Lamashtu helping (in her way) in a fights against Lamias, particularly once they're on Mhar Massif. They've been on the same side since Magnimar, but Lamashtu doesn't care if the mortals understand that, as long as they fix the problem.

The main tweaks I'd make is portraying the Lamias on Mhar Massif as increasingly twisted and Lovecraftian. You probably don't need to change their stats at all, though.

Cheers!
Landon


Thats really interesting Landon. I think it might fit great with this particular party!

My Thoughts:
Three quarters of the original PCs died in the trap right before Nualia in Thistletop (not their brightest moment), and Hemlock brought recruits back with him from Magnimar which became three replacement PCs.

These replacements then captured Nualia, turned her over the the authorities, and eventually escorted her to Magnimar when they travelled there to investigate Foxglove's townhouse. What they haven't caught onto yet is they turned Nualia over the Justice Ironbriar.

When the replacements went back into Thistletop to defeat Nualia I had the bodies of the fallen be missing (mostly so they couldn't loot their gear after having built new chracters with level appropriate gear already).
So, Nualia is released, completes her ritual to become a half-fiend, maybe gains some levels in divine scion and begins to become Lamashtu's direct agent. Further she brings back one of the dead PCs to act as a messenger before Xin-Shalast. And perhaps after they've served their purpose Lamashtu has agreed to let her exact her revenge on them?

I really enjoy the moral ambiguiity in their actions having been actually aiding the Mother of Monsters plans.


This actually adds an intriguing plot twist.

Imagine the players feeling like Lamashtu offers aid through her agent, Nuahlia? Rock and the hard place.

Can they defeat Karzoug on their own or do they take the devil's bargain?

You would need to make sure that Nuahlia/Lamashtu's involvement is kept at a minimum otherwise it will turn into a deus ex machina.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Rise of the Runelords / Overarching theme of RotR All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rise of the Runelords