Playtest Results: Rogue Tricksters Need Better Tricks


Player Feedback

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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This feedback is based on my "Heroes of Hibernia" playtest campaign.

I was hoping the mythic rules would give rogues new and interesting ways to contribute during combat encounters. Surprise strike was a step in the right direction, as was supreme stealth, but that's not nearly enough. In terms of combat ability, the rogue in my playtest is falling behind the rest of the party much faster than a non-mythic rogue would fall behind other non-mythic classes.

Over the first four levels and two tiers, the problem has gotten so bad that the rogue's player decided to leave the playtest until his character has multiclassed out of rogue. Meanwhile, the player who took over the rogue spends nearly every combat encounter grousing about how useless his character is, even if he does get in an occasional surprise strike.

The problem I'm seeing with the rogue is this: the mythic rules have done nothing to increase the rogue's effective range in combat. The rogue is still expected to get within 30 feet of opponents to take full advantage of sneak attack. But the mythic rules have done little to help the rogue get within 30 feet of opponents during combats fought on large battlefields.

Surprise strike lets the rogue move a little bit, and supreme stealth is nice against certain opponents. But there aren't any mythic abilities related to speed and maneuverability to help rogues out. Mythic rogues should be able to charge through difficult terrain and around corners; feint as part of a move action; ride on large opponents' backs; inexplicably appear where they need to be on the battlefield; and the like. As it stands, they can't do any of that.

Granted, there are numerous mythic abilities that improve skills, and rogues are one or the more skill-intensive classes. But my playtesters decided to take those mythic abilities on later tiers, if at all. Aside from supreme stealth, which the players agreed was one of the more useful trickster abilities, the skill-related abilities were low on their list of priorities. The players felt that skill-based characters already had numerous non-mythic options for improving their skills, and thus shouldn't waste mythic abilities doing the same. They, and I, were hoping for something to make rogues more useful in a wider range of combat situations, not just combats where opponents are all handily within 30 feet or so of the party.

Unfortunately, that hasn't yet happened. My playtesters and I agree that single-classed mythic rogues simply aren't that fun to play when compared to mythic characters of other, more-versatile classes (those with combat options and spells in addition to skills). At best, mythic rogues get a bit better at non-combat stuff they already do well (and supreme stealth is nice). But mythic rogues don't get any fun, new things to do in combat.


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Mythic abilities for Tricksters should be more like "As as a swift action, roll a DC 30 Stealth check and become invisible for 1 round. Take this ability a second time and roll for a skill check DC 40 and get Greater Invisibility for 1 round." Or "As an immidiate action, roll an Acrobatic skill check with a DC of 15 + the damage delt to take half damage from a melee attack".

A spring attack + vital strike would be interesting, so would a spring attack that gives you two attacks instead of one, or a dimension door and move action and then a dimension door attack and move action, would be interesting.

I think designers relly a lot on Path Dabbling as the ability of choice for Tricksters.


being able to tumble at full speed might be nice in conjunction with that skill buffing trickster dealy. just a thought.


Epic Meepo wrote:
They, and I, were hoping for something to make rogues more useful in a wider range of combat situations, not just combats where opponents are all handily within 30 feet or so of the party.

If I'm reading correctly, there's a barbarian who uses a greatsword in the same party. How does he handle foes that aren't within 30 feet?


What do you think would happen if the rogue had chosen Champion instead of Trickster?


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Of course, when the suggestion for a rogue player is to not take the path clearly meant for rogues, that says a bit about the options.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

hogarth wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, there's a barbarian who uses a greatsword in the same party. How does he handle foes that aren't within 30 feet?

Javelins, which utilized the barbarian's full Strength bonus to damage at ranges beyond 30 feet. Fast movement to close in on opponents faster than the rogue. Absorb blow to survive a round of moving across an open battlefield while being struck by opponents.

The most telling example of that last point involved a young red dragon on the far side of cavern full of difficult terrain. Any melee character advancing towards the dragon risked taking a full attack from the dragon before getting in a single attack. The rogue knew he would die if he attempted it, so he held back. The 4th-level/2nd-tier barbarian guardian just double-moved across the cavern and ate the entire full attack from the CR 10 dragon, losing less than half his hp in the process. He and the archer then killed the dragon before the dragon's next turn.

In other fights, the rogue made ranged attacks beyond 30 feet, but dealt negligible damage. The rogue would also advance towards opponents, but usually got there one or two rounds later than the barbarian, especially if he was trying to remain hidden while moving.

Granted, the barbarian wasn't as effective on large battlefields as the party's dedicated archer, but he had ranged attacks whose damage remained constant beyond 30 feet, was more maneuverable than the rogue, and was sturdy enough to throw caution to the wind while advancing.


Interesting stuff!


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Epic Meepo wrote:
Surprise strike lets the rogue move a little bit, and supreme stealth is nice against certain opponents. But there aren't any mythic abilities related to speed and maneuverability to help rogues out. Mythic rogues should be able to charge through difficult terrain and around corners; feint as part of a move action; ride on large opponents' backs; inexplicably appear where they need to be on the battlefield; and the like. As it stands, they can't do any of that.

rogues should be able to feint as a Swift action.

The rogue:
Sneak attack - not good enough and too hard to use (need flank, etc)
Skill monkey - skills aren't very good. At least not at higher levels.
Stealth/scout - can be done by other classes better or just as good.
Can deal with traps - can be dealt with by other classes just as good (or even better sometimes).

So what is the problem? Sneak attack is weak and skills aren't very good/don't matter at higher levels (higher levels = mid levels and higher).

Sneak attack - can't sneak attack as an archer and when she's in melee she need help to flank. Even when she lands her sneak attack damage she isn't even on par with other classes. I'm not saying she should be as good as a fighter or magus, but she should be able to sneak attack more often. One on one a rogue would be beaten to a pulp by an NPC class such as warrior because she can't use her sneak attack.

Once again: It is a myth that sneak attack deals a lot of damage. It doesn't. So give her the option to feint as a swift action and boost the damage output.

A hasted level 15 rogue with the two weapon fighting chain would have 7 attacks per round. Even with improved feint she can only attack once per round. And using feint is no auto success even if you invest in charisma or skills focus. They should be able to feint as a swift action. And this should not be a mythic ability.

Skills? Stealth/scout, Can deal with traps?

from another thread:

A Man In Black wrote:


Anyway. Rogues are in kind of a weird place in Pathfinder, even moreso than in 3.5. They're not supposed to be as good at martial combat as...uh... all the other classes, so they aren't. What they get in return for this is out-of-combat problem-solving utility. Thing is, almost all (and indeed all, using non-core material) of this out-of-combat utility is redundant with other non-magical classes. That isn't even taking into account spellcasters, who by and large get more out-of-combat schticks, while having comparable or better in-combat schticks.

The rogue's schtick is skills and skills aren't very good. They certainly aren't good enough to explain why a class whose only real combat schtick is "stab a dude" is weaker at stabbing than pretty much everyone else. Skills are not only often nonfunctional (Diplomacy, original-version Stealth), they're also almost always hardcapped at what's "realistic" or "humanly possible" (Stealth again, all of the movement skills).

In return for this schtick, the rogue is worse at fighting. It's not just that the rogue is less capable and more-situational than a fighter, barbarian, or paladin: she's also weaker when it comes to wrecking some jerk than the ranger and (non-core) monk, who also rely on skill-based schticks (albeit skill-based schticks supplemented with class abilities), not to mention the alchemist, cleric, druid, and oracle. All of these classes have class abilities or spellcasting to do more than what's "humanly possible", and can still fight in addition to solving problems that don't require murder.

So yeah. I do think the rogue is a weak class. She's worse at fighting to be good at something that often isn't useful, and will often be overshadowed in her own specialty by someone else in the party.

I wish I knew how to fix it.

A Man In Black says he wish he knew how to fix it. I've got a suggestion.

Let skills really matter.

Let rogues be able to feint as a swift action. Just create feat or give them an ability. This should not be a mythic feat or mythic abilities. This would let bluff be an important skill and charisma would actually matter.

Let mythic rules break what's "realistic" or "humanly possible" when it comes to skills. Let a rogue (or any class) use acrobatics to jump high in the air and fly (as a substitution to fly), let them use acrobatics to make teleporting jumps like dimension door as long as they have a line of sight. Let them use swim to swim in waterfalls.

As long john silver suggested: Let them use stealth to grant them invisibility and greater invisibility.

Let skills matter. It would also help the fighter, the Cavalier and other classes that don't use magic to be more versatile.

Mythic rules grant a bonus to skills, but the rules hasn't changed what skills actually let you do. As the rules stand now 4 skills per level is enough since skills doesn't really matter that much at higher level. When a potion of invisibility is more effective than 10 ranks in stealth and skill focus stealth then something is wrong.

Jack B. Nimble still can't get his Chicken for dinner.

Shadow Lodge

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Would love to see something like this

"Go for the Kill"
You are so dedicated the the art of death that nothing will stand in your way. When charging you ignore all difficult terrain in your line. You may acrobatics through all any enemies in your way with the dc increasing by 2 for each character you pass through along the way. This attack is so sudden and unpredictable that you may gain your sneak attack on this attack.

Acrobatic dodge
You have become incredibly good at dodging lethal attacks. Once per round when an attack lands you may make an acrobatics check to dodge the blow. The DC is equal to your opponents attack roll. On a critical hit if you roll is successful you take half damage instead of none.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

You're misquoting me in your previous post, Zark. When I say, "as part of a move action," I mean "as part of a move action," not, "as part of a move action." By adding your own boldface to half my words, you're obfuscating my point (that the trickster path should have a path ability that allows the trickster to feint without spending a separate action to do it under certain circumstances).

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Just as a quick note...

We recognize this as a problem. As it happens, I am working on the Trickster now and am striving to greatly improve the versatility and interest in this path.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


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Who are the most notorious tricksters in lore?

Odysseus is a good example, and what Odysseus was known for was tricking the Cyclops, inventing the Trojan horse (thus winning the war), slaughtering the suitors of his wife, outsmarting various witches and minor deities, and surviving against terrible sea monsters by what seemed to be luck.

What this smells like to me is that the trickster's greatest asset is to analyze and exploit the situation without direct combat, while also (momentarily) being a force to be feared by non-mythic foes. Effectively like how with but a single interjection, Bugs Bunny can turn a raging psychopath intent on killing him, into a confused and gullible dupe walking into a trap. So in a one-on-one, a trickster should be able to quickly bluff a violently hostile enemy into what is effectively a self-destructive compulsion.

Mythic tricksters have also (in Norse, Celtic or Chinese lore) shown feats of ridiculous prowess in such things as (what Pathfinder rules to be) climbing or acrobatics. By ridiculous, I mean the sort of examples which defy physics, such as balancing on a cloud or needle, or leaping over a defensive wall.


Epic Meepo wrote:
You're misquoting me in your previous post, Zark. When I say, "as part of a move action," I mean "as part of a move action," not, "as part of a move action." By adding your own boldface to half my words, you're obfuscating my point (that the trickster path should have a path ability that allows the trickster to feint without spending a separate action to do it under certain circumstances).

You are over analyzing what I wrote. I wasn't out to get you or to obfuscate your point. Your notes from the playtest is very interesting. I just wanted to add my thoughts show that I more or less agree with you. See my post as complement.

There is indeed a difference between feint as a move action and feint as part of a move action, but bold letters or no bold letters there is no difference between "as part of a move action" and "as part of a move action."

I agree, being able to feint as part of a move action would help some, but overall not. Not when it only lets you attack once per round. "To feint without spending a separate action " won't fly if the cost is a move action or if it's "part of a move action". And btw, I wouldn't mind to spending a swift action to feint.

I think there is a basic design flaw when it comes to the rogue (and with skills) that need to be addressed. It needs to be addressed on a basic level. It won't happen now, but let's hope it get fixed in pathfinder 1.5. Until then let's hope for a Mythic Trickster that is fun.

@Jason: Nice that you are looking into the path. This path is just as bad if you want to play the bard. Especially since the skill monkey concept really doesn't work.

Sovereign Court

Why do none of the mythic abilities enhance sneak attack damage? Ninjas/Rogues should be able to one-shot kill certain types of enemies (wizard with his guard down) with a sneak attack from stealth once or twice per day. Bring back the x4, x5, x6 etc. full damage multipliers on the first hit from stealth or invisibility (not flanking). For example:

Mythic Sneak Attack
Expend one use of mythic power. If you have cover or concealment you may attempt a stealth check against a single target creature. If you are successful, your next attack during that turn against that creature gains your precision damage multiplied by 4. Roll your precision damage dice and multiply the result by 4. Note that this bonus applies to only a single attack, not attacks from multiple weapons or iterative attacks.

Please allow "Mythic" rogues to actually assassinate one creature on occasion.

Figuring that most enemies have about 8 hps per level, and rogues get about 1D3 (2) sneak attack damage per level, x4 = 100% damage.

Frankly I think larger multipliers are necessary to balance all the weaknesses of being a rogue, but x4 would be a start. Does Paizo not realize that with no positioning at all a fighter or paladin can easily get a straight damage bonus that is double or even triple the average value of rogue sneak attack? (*cough* Mythic Power Attack *cough*).

Mythic sneak attack abilities written like this one would also get around the current stealth RAW, which are vague and seem to make stealth pretty useless, and give us something closer to the stealth playtest rules (hidden until next attack in the current round).

Shadow Lodge

What about something like

Mythic Sneak attack: A trickster may expend a use of mythic power to allow their sneak attack to be multiplied on a crit

Kill shot: A trickster may expend a use of mythic power to treat the next attack roll as a critical threat. The tricksters attack roll counts as their roll to confirm that crit.

Through the skull: A trickster may expend a use of mythic power to increase the critical multiplier by 1. They may take this trait more then once each time the critical multiplier increases by one.

Sovereign Court

Actually, the Mythic rules seem all about giving mythic characters huge advantages over non-mythic, so why not give high tier rogues the ability to instantly kill non-mythic humanoids with a single strike? Don't even worry about damage multipliers, just expend mythic power to add a save-or-die effect to the first sneak attack from stealth.


Mythic Coup de Grace: A Trickster can perform a Coup de Grace on an opponent who is not bound, sleeping, unconcsious or otherwise helpless while he has made a successful Stealth check against that opponent's Perception by expending a Mythic Point.

Shadow Lodge

Atan wrote:
Actually, the Mythic rules seem all about giving mythic characters huge advantages over non-mythic, so why not give high tier rogues the ability to instantly kill non-mythic humanoids with a single strike? Don't even worry about damage multipliers, just expend mythic power to add a save-or-die effect to the first sneak attack from stealth.

The problem with that though is that it crosses over into the capstone ability for the rogue and the predominate class ability for the assassin and discourages players from actually working towards the end of those trees.

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